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Topic Starter Topic: Re: Just remember folks, I called this. immortality.
mrd
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PostPosted: 08-01-2012 04:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Κracus wrote:
I'm surprised mrd, would you classify your beliefs as a form of pantheism? I do.


Not really sure, I've never thought to classify it. Reading up on pantheism, it seems similar I suppose, but I'm not sure why there's a need to bring God into it. Even though in this case it's a different usage than is most common, it seems redundant. I'm God, ffs.
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TruthfulLiar
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PostPosted: 08-01-2012 05:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lol hippies.
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-02-2012 07:21 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


mrd wrote:
Κracus wrote:
I'm surprised mrd, would you classify your beliefs as a form of pantheism? I do.


Not really sure, I've never thought to classify it. Reading up on pantheism, it seems similar I suppose, but I'm not sure why there's a need to bring God into it. Even though in this case it's a different usage than is most common, it seems redundant. I'm God, ffs.


Yeah that's exactly how I see it too. I don't particularly care if it's already been given a label however when reading up about a subject that's already been fleshed out previously by scholars you often find concepts and ideas that although were in the back of your mind weren't fully fleshed out. It adds structure to ideas you have, much like epistemology did for me when I started wondering how I knew that I knew.
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seremtan
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PostPosted: 08-02-2012 08:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


losCHUNK wrote:
Prison sentences will become a whole load easier

edit [oopsy]


not really. if someone was given 25 years without being allowed to take their eternal youth tablets inside, that could count as a death penalty - problematic in countries without the death penalty (i.e. the civilised ones)
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-02-2012 09:22 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I could see death by aging as an acceptable punishment even though I'm opposed to the death penalty.
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seremtan
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PostPosted: 08-02-2012 09:56 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


uh, again: no. in a world where 'rejuvenative therapies' were normal, forcing someone to die by aging would probably count as 'cruel and unusual' (in the US) or some kind of egregious human rights violation (in Europe)
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TruthfulLiar
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 10:23 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


existenz anyone
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 06:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


BTW, if anyone here hasn't read Ray Kurzweil's "The Singularity is Near", I think you should take a look. While some may not agree with his time-frame of 2045, his argument that technological advancement tends to increase on an exponential scale is pretty persuasive. The most obvious example is with computer microprocessors and Moore's Law, but it appears in most other industries as well.

Many people underestimate the power of exponential curves, so it's important to realize that there will be a point where the slope of the curve starts to take off and hits infinity. It's on this point where Kurzweil plots his 2045 time-frame for the singularity, the impact of which on society are absolutely unimaginable. What will humanity do with unlimited processing power that infinitely surpasses our own intelligence? Use it to solve every single human problem (including mortality, global warming, etc.) and unravel the mysteries of the universe? That's the point of the singularity, it's beyond our comprehension.



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TruthfulLiar
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 07:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It is a great book. I gave it to my girlfriend-at-the-time's dad as a Christmas present and he thought I was nuts.

Edit:

[quote=obsidian]Many people underestimate the power of exponential curves, so it's important to realize that there will be a point where the slope of the curve starts to take off and hits infinity. It's on this point where Kurzweil plots his 2045 time-frame for the singularity, the impact of which on society are absolutely unimaginable. What will humanity do with unlimited processing power that infinitely surpasses our own intelligence? Use it to solve every single human problem (including mortality, global warming, etc.) and unravel the mysteries of the universe? That's the point of the singularity, it's beyond our comprehension.[/quote]

tl;dr but I agree.

That is assuming that we are looking at a curve that is exponential.

In other words, assuming, that the part of a curve that we are witnessing now as history has dictated will not in fact become part of a larger curve. That does something different for whatever reason that may be.

I draws the picture for you. And me.

_,.-~*'|'*~-.,_

Standard deviation curve. Yes? With the 50% marked.

So, what if, assuming that time is linear, we are looking at the curve from this part.

I will put it in other terms, I was never a math major. When observing a normal curve, over time the middle either rises or flattens out. What is not *normal* becomes a higher or lesser percentage or ratio of the whole 100%. I am not trying to give anyone a lesson, I really have to voice this out otherwise I am not sure if this sounds correct. Does this make sense? What I am trying to say is something to the effect that what rises also falls, not because there is a curve, but because what accumulates over time may also level out and then the idea or terminology of what information or whatever it is that we call *it* by definition for what we observe as knowledge of or intelligence may be radically different than it is now.

Allowing for this, I would assume, that he is right, but that also everything will change. Wasn't it that he posited that there would be some sort of collapse or freeze or some kind of stopping point? The singularity? I forget what his conclusion was. (It was 2006 [I think] when I gave him that book.)

I have no idea if any of that gibberish made sense. Or if it makes any.

---

OK. So if I actually finished reading what you said, then apparently his conclusion is that it is incomprehensible.

I'd agree with that. I imagine it will be.

Try tell someone about chips and cell phones and skype and whatnot to a person born in the 1930's. Or even better, the 1870's.




Last edited by TruthfulLiar on 08-03-2012 07:22 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 07:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Was it that fat pig who dumped you?
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TruthfulLiar
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 07:23 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yes, actually. :tear: The one that got away.

Speaking of tl;dr, that book was redic long.

The bit with the baseball and catching was neat. Always remember that part.

Edit:

Now that I think of it, exponential adding of information etc is pretty inevitable...

Edit:

OK. Maybe one person back then would have understood what chips etc are: Tesla.
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 07:49 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


This is exponential (plotted next to linear):

Image

If you keep charting that exponential curve, you can imagine a point where the slope of the curve will be pointing straight up. The significance of that is that if you think of it as a yearly progression, there will be a year where technology improves so much that it is infinitely great - greater than the whole sum of all human history combined.

Besides, the book does go over various other technological advances, even looking at human history as a whole. The time-frame between social revolutions has shortened at each iteration at an exponential rate. As far as hitting limits (such as physical die size of processors), he refers to how at each point in history where we hit a supposed limit, we end up jumping paradigms (such as to 3D transistors, quantum computing, etc.) and continuing that same trend. Processors are just an example used since it is one that we are most aware of, and it's not just some freak accident of a curve that only represents a briefer stretch of history like the digital revolution. His point is that a similar trend has been ongoing for all of human history.



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Tsakali
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 09:19 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


so are we going to accidentally the whole universe?
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TruthfulLiar
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 09:29 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


he means this
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Tsakali
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 09:42 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


on a more serious note if progress is destined to near some kind of mathematical infinity, then eventually anything we can imagine now and forever can eventually be realized...time travel both directions, instantaneous intergalactic travel at any point in the universe, etc.

Seems a bit hard to believe.
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TruthfulLiar
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 10:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


multi-verse
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TruthfulLiar
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PostPosted: 08-03-2012 10:48 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Image
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seremtan
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PostPosted: 08-04-2012 02:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


TruthfulLiar wrote:
he means this



a flash player that's too small?
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Tsakali
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PostPosted: 08-04-2012 03:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


geoff can still see all the pixels
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Plan B
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PostPosted: 08-04-2012 06:46 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


:olo:
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PostPosted: 08-04-2012 10:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Just had a chance to read this topic end to end (tip:there is no real end).
It is a good read :up:

I have seen too much Star Trek but I don't think they ever created clones in their quest to answer all, least don't thinks so. With that in mind I'll go with the inbuilt safety/redundancy checks they will have*

and *'will' is a the thought here to really worry about :?:

To quote fellow player in this :q3: world

HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
Great thread. Would read again.



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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 06:46 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tsakali wrote:
on a more serious note if progress is destined to near some kind of mathematical infinity, then eventually anything we can imagine now and forever can eventually be realized...time travel both directions, instantaneous intergalactic travel at any point in the universe, etc.

Seems a bit hard to believe.



This is where the beyond comprehension factor sets in. I suspect we'll discover the true nature of consciousness in 2045. I suspect our entire universe is a result of this consciousness thus the implications of that encompass what you're talking about but are so trivial they won't be much of a concern at this point.
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I suspect one day d-o-g will spell c-a-t.
Lay off the bath salts, you fucking faggot.
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 07:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Κracus wrote:
This is where the beyond comprehension factor sets in. I suspect we'll discover the true nature of consciousness in 2045. I suspect our entire universe is a result of this consciousness thus the implications of that encompass what you're talking about but are so trivial they won't be much of a concern at this point.


Are you one of those people who take the hippie thing way too far and profess that the universe exists only because of consciousness? That there'd be no universe if it wasn't observed?

If so, seriously...put the crack pipe down.
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 08:07 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah that's pretty much. There's evidence to support this too.

For example, part of what I'm saying means that you and I share consciousness. That doesn't mean I can read your mind, but the free will you experience (again, if it wasn't free will/consciousness you wouldn't experience it anymore than a rock experiences an avalanche)

That sounds like hard pill to swallow but get this. They did a study at a university where they took two meditation students and had them meditate together in a room and hooked them up to sensors. They found that brainwaves for both individuals synced up which made sense because they were both doing the same thing, in the same environment etc...

So they took these two and moved them into separate rooms. In 1 room, the individual was shown images meant to affect the individual and the other was put in a dark room and shown nothing. What they saw was that the brainwaves of the first individual would change with the images he/she was being shown and those same brainwaves were being replicated by the individual in the dark room.

You can try to draw your own conclusions as to why this happens. They think there's a conscious link and I think so too.

Plus they've found aspects of the universe that point to it being nothing but an illusion or a very elaborate simulation much like any virtual world.

Most philosophers and scientists have a hard time figuring how consciousness and reality fit together because they seem so separate but it makes a lot more sense, to me anyway, when you think of consciousness as a singularity/chaos or the infinite. Material infinity seems impossible to me but mathematical infinity seems possible. So what if everything you see is information/energy?

I know how ridiculous I sound.
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 08:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I do see everything as energy. It is by no accident the foundation of string theory: that everything in the universe is made of strings and strings themselves are pure energy. This also works mathematically and thermodynamically as well.

But you can't tell me that without consciousness that somehow the four forces of the universe will stop working, that chemical reactions cease to function and that gravity and black holes evaporate from reality.

Κracus wrote:
Plus they've found aspects of the universe that point to it being nothing but an illusion or a very elaborate simulation much like any virtual world.


Sorry man, but I've read up on the stuff you're talking about years ago and the "ideas" that you're discussing are no different than religion in that it's the most narcissistic way of looking at things: you are the centre of the universe.

How provincial of you.

Κracus wrote:
I know how ridiculous I sound.


I'm not sure you do.
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 08:32 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, it didn't make a sound.

This argument has been around for centuries and there is no clear proof of either side of this question. Philosophers much greater than either of us have pondered it and still don't know the answer.

I also don't see how what I'm saying equates to me thinking I'm the center of the universe. In fact, I'm saying any form of consciousness is shared. From dogs to humans to aliens. Each body is a tool that funnels consciousness into this physical reality we've constructed for ourselves (ego's).

Perhaps to discover itself, I'm sure the universe is as curious about itself as we are and not by coincidence.
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 08:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Κracus wrote:
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, it didn't make a sound.

This argument has been around for centuries and there is no clear proof of either side of this question. Philosophers much greater than either of us have pondered it and still don't know the answer.

I also don't see how what I'm saying equates to me thinking I'm the center of the universe. In fact, I'm saying any form of consciousness is shared. From dogs to humans to aliens. Each body is a tool that funnels consciousness into this physical reality we've constructed for ourselves (ego's).

Perhaps to discover itself, I'm sure the universe is as curious about itself as we are and not by coincidence.


Jesus Christ. Where to start?
Fuck it...it'd be pointless anyways. Next you'll be saying Astrology is true. I'm not going to waste my time knocking down bullshit that's already been knocked down 1000 times.
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seremtan
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 09:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


jesus christ it's like moronics 101 in here

kracus you've managed to regurgitate just about every intellectual fallacy there is here, from the appeal to authority ("philosophers much greater than either of us have pondered it") to the old we-don't-really-know-so-my-idiotic-theory-might-be-correct routine, with all points in between
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 09:05 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Epistemology is far from knocked down. Go educate yourself.
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 09:11 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
jesus christ it's like moronics 101 in here

kracus you've managed to regurgitate just about every intellectual fallacy there is here, from the appeal to authority ("philosophers much greater than either of us have pondered it") to the old we-don't-really-know-so-my-idiotic-theory-might-be-correct routine, with all points in between



I'm not appealing to authority I just don't want to regurgitate as you indicated everything they've already discussed on this subject. All I'm saying is that the topic of whether reality is real isn't new and there is no defined answer despite how you morons feel that just discrediting me instead of what I'm saying invalidates what I said which it doesn't.

That's the problem here, I can discuss whatever I want. whether I make sense or don't, it'll always boil down to "Kracus you're stupid etc etc..." yet time and time again, I see many of you twits talking about the same thing agreeing with what I was saying. It's fine to have an opinion either side of the coin you are. Whether it's deterministic or not is fine but if you're argument is you're a moron which it usually is then I simply see you as conceding that you don't know.

I'm not claiming I know either but I do have an opinion.
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 09:30 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Κracus wrote:
I'm not claiming I know either but I do have an opinion.


And so we're right back to where we started with you not fully understanding something, then forming an opinion based on only some of the facts and dismissing facts that blow your opinion out of the water. So this thread is, for all intents and purposes, another dumb fucking "Kracus thread" © 2000. It's more than apparent you have no understanding at all about the fundamental sciences and are making it up as you go because "it feels right". Fucking truthiness morons never cease to amaze.

Sorry Kracus...but any respect you've gained the last few years from "growing up" and writing fewer incredibly moronic posts day-in day-out has dried up. In the last 10 years of people telling you you don't know what you're talking about and all the knowledge humanity has gained in that time, you've still learned nothing. gg :up:
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seremtan
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 10:01 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Κracus wrote:
Epistemology is far from knocked down. Go educate yourself.


i did: BA, Philosophy & Psychology, Oxford :olo:

but feel free to edjumacate me further on the subject of epistemothingummy with yer folk wisdom and tales from the voodoo lounge
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 10:11 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I have never dismissed any opinion (there are no facts here) other than the ones that are simply attack on me as a person. Like your last post.

I actually enjoy discussion while you enjoy making yourself feel or seem better by simply discrediting my intellect or simply dismissing something I say without actually backing up your views with any form of logic.

You don't want to talk about it? Then don't is my advice to you. People who ponder deterministic scenarios are likely very depressed and rightly so. Those who believe it should just kill themselves. The fact you have nothing to offer in regards to your stance tells me volumes about how much you've thought on this subject. Normally I'd just let you get away with whatever intellectual quip you've got against me but just know that it's not because I believe you or that I feel bad, it's because I'm a better man on most days. Today I feel like calling you out because I think your being very liberal about your condescending nature because you think you've got some kind of bandwagon on your side.

regardless, you may have a point but you'll never make it be known with the gibberish you choose to focus on.
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 10:14 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
Κracus wrote:
Epistemology is far from knocked down. Go educate yourself.


i did: BA, Philosophy & Psychology, Oxford :olo:

but feel free to edjumacate me further on the subject of epistemothingummy with yer folk wisdom and tales from the voodoo lounge


Ah yes, the classic I have a papers that make me smart argument. LOVE that one. :dork:

I think Jackal might have an opinion on how great those are.
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