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Quake3World -
Basic Income
Varoufakis does a good job of explaining the rationale behind it, and isn't naive about the difficulties of convincing people that what many will consider to be 'free money' is necessary. worth watching
to be honest, i don't think he goes far enough. if automation spreads faster than economies can replace the lost jobs, the only alternatives will be either violence or some form of cornucopian communism (p.s. dystopias like the world of Elysium are too far fetched to take seriously)
i think it is ok to pay people to live properly , go to school, volunteer for good causes and charitys, stuff like that. or even because they are unable to for various resons.
no commie job stuff tho, jobs should be based on how hard it is worked, how skilled the work done, productivity, attitude , loyalty , performance reviews by relevent parties ,etc.
never entitlement for jobs .
Last edited by plained on Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That is an interesting concept. However, the implementation and regulation would be quite difficult and leave huge opportunities for further government corruption. I'd be interested to know if he had any ideas on how the base income would be established, how the money would be appropriated to fund the base income and how we could assure a base income wouldn't promote an abnormal regression of the working class. The base income theory sounds good until it spirals out of control. It could widen the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots". Causing the need for a base income to be raised disproportionately to the monies being appropriated. Basically more people not working than working. I don't know. The idea of getting something for nothing just doesn't seem right.
YourGrandpa wrote:The idea of getting something for nothing just doesn't seem right.
he addresses this point right near the start by pointing out how much private wealth is created via tax-funded investment and research (the Apple example), and that this is intended as a dividend, not just free money for deadbeats
it does however suffer the same problem as welfare: so long as we believe that the intended recipients of welfare are people more or less like ourselves (i.e. society is more toward the homogeneous end of the spectrum than the heterogeneous), we are happy for them to receive it. on the other hand, if we think the welfare is going to people more or less unlike ourselves, we're less enthusiastic about it. this is the base explanation for the decline in the New Deal/social democracy model (which Varoufakis acknowledges is over, but pins the blame on financialisation in a way that didn't really make sense to me). seems to me that people would object to basic income on the same grounds
I think this or some similar system will be inevitable in order to prevent a complete unequal balance of wealth swinging towards corporations. The current system of capitalism is not sustainable since corporations are so large that there is limited competition in most industries. I think the roles of corporations and governments will be redefined out of necessity as our entire economic system is near a point where it will be upturned.
Automation is really the first step of job obsolescence. Various levels of AI will further reduce jobs, take transportation jobs (buses, taxes, truck drivers) being eliminated by self driving vehicles who are safer, more efficient and more timely. It's not such a stretch to think that AI will start taking over white collar jobs as well, it's already happening and technology is developing at an exponentially faster rate, and we are now well beyond the knee of the curve. With more computer controlled efficiency, supply will increase, demand will decrease, cost of manufacturing will decrease, profits will increase. This is a net benefit which can be passed back to society as a dividend in the name of basic income.
The interesting thing about basic income is that it retires a lot of other social services like welfare, social security, unemployment insurance, pensions, etc. most of which are costly, inefficient and covered with red tape. Cut off points used to determine who receives these services put a lot of people in a void of in-between. Take for example, someone on welfare who doesn't quite get enough money to save up and leave the poverty line, but if they get a job paying minimum wage they get booted off welfare and still are living below the poverty level. There is little incentive for this individual to get off welfare, because their standard of living won't increase either way.
With basic income, everyone is guaranteed an equal share of income as a dividend of social progress, but if you wanted to have more money you are welcome to work. For those who want more, can work harder. Those who are fine with what they have or are unable to work don't have to. Or you can work part time. Or you can use your basic income to seed a small business. There is still an incentive for most people to continue to seek employment so they can buy more stuff (which in turn makes corporations happy), as well as an incentive for those who were trapped between relying on hand outs and working to get a job and move above the poverty line.
Sure as hell won't be easy since we have to abandon a lot of our antiquated thinking and build completely new economic systems, laws and governance with not a lot of time to do it, but it will be inevitable since the march of technological progress beats at an exponentially faster rate while we tend to think only linearly.
obsidian wrote:I think this or some similar system will be inevitable in order to prevent a complete unequal balance of wealth swinging towards corporations. The current system of capitalism is not sustainable since corporations are so large that there is limited competition in most industries. I think the roles of corporations and governments will be redefined out of necessity as our entire economic system is near a point where it will be upturned.
Automation is really the first step of job obsolescence. Various levels of AI will further reduce jobs, take transportation jobs (buses, taxes, truck drivers) being eliminated by self driving vehicles who are safer, more efficient and more timely. It's not such a stretch to think that AI will start taking over white collar jobs as well, it's already happening and technology is developing at an exponentially faster rate, and we are now well beyond the knee of the curve. With more computer controlled efficiency, supply will increase, demand will decrease, cost of manufacturing will decrease, profits will increase. This is a net benefit which can be passed back to society as a dividend in the name of basic income.
The interesting thing about basic income is that it retires a lot of other social services like welfare, social security, unemployment insurance, pensions, etc. most of which are costly, inefficient and covered with red tape. Cut off points used to determine who receives these services put a lot of people in a void of in-between. Take for example, someone on welfare who doesn't quite get enough money to save up and leave the poverty line, but if they get a job paying minimum wage they get booted off welfare and still are living below the poverty level. There is little incentive for this individual to get off welfare, because their standard of living won't increase either way.
With basic income, everyone is guaranteed an equal share of income as a dividend of social progress, but if you wanted to have more money you are welcome to work. For those who want more, can work harder. Those who are fine with what they have or are unable to work don't have to. Or you can work part time. Or you can use your basic income to seed a small business. There is still an incentive for most people to continue to seek employment so they can buy more stuff (which in turn makes corporations happy), as well as an incentive for those who were trapped between relying on hand outs and working to get a job and move above the poverty line.
Sure as hell won't be easy since we have to abandon a lot of our antiquated thinking and build completely new economic systems, laws and governance with not a lot of time to do it, but it will be inevitable since the march of technological progress beats at an exponentially faster rate while we tend to think only linearly.
you should give Elon Musk a call and tell him he's done no work to develop his rockets because he inherited all the publicly funded research and development from the Nazis and NASA for free
this must also be the reason why the internet hasn't progressed since DARPA invented it in the 1960s and why the world wide web has been totally stagnant since HTML was invented at CERN in the 1980s
oh, and lastly, don't forget to write to all the public universities in the world and tell them to keep the results of their scientific research to themselves to avoid tech/pharma scroungers leeching off it for private gain
I think it's a great "idea". You can explain how it could work until you're blue in the face. But I think we'd all like to hear more about implementation. I'd like to hear where and how government will obtain the funds to pay out a basic income. I'd like to hear about who's going to set the basic income wage and how it will be regulated. I'd like to hear what current benefits would replaced by this income provided by the government. I would also like some assurance that all of this additional money being funneled through the government is going to the people and not lining the pockets of slick politicians.
BTW, the biggest hurdle wouldn't be the people, it will be the governments.
I explained that above. It retires welfare, social security, unemployment insurance, pensions, etc. and gains extra revenue from dividends paid out as a result of technological advancements. Implementation would probably have to be phased in, starting with a low basic income and increasing as other services are phased out. I mean, it's not like governments aren't already doing this except in an incredibly complicated and inefficient form. If anything, this simplifies the red tape.
YourGrandpa wrote:I'd like to hear where and how government will obtain the funds to pay out a basic income.
same place they get the money for corporate tax cuts (by the way, do you ask where the money is coming from to fund those?)
I'd like to hear about who's going to set the basic income wage and how it will be regulated.
respectively, the government (obviously), and it doesn't need much in the way of 'regulation'
I'd like to hear what current benefits would replaced by this income provided by the government.
ultimately, all of them
I would also like some assurance that all of this additional money being funneled through the government is going to the people and not lining the pockets of slick politicians.
the proof is in the amount landing in your bank account. everyone would get exactly the same amount
BTW, the biggest hurdle wouldn't be the people, it will be the governments.
i disagree. governments may well (privately) acknowledge the value of the idea, but be put off by the inevitable "free money for bums" meme that the media will kickstart and the public will swallow
Thing is, alongside basic income, some degree of free housing is implicit. After all, in a society with basic income we will have already admitted that a certain percentage of the population will never have work and therefore will never earn more than basic, so they're never going to be able to afford to rent, let alone buy property.
Any basic income proposal that doesn't take that into account won't have teeth.
Oh, for sure. The current situation in the UK regarding income and property is absolutely abysmal. Just saying if we look at one, we'll need to look at the other.
'course, that kind of talk won't fly with those who've been sold on the buy-to-let dream.
buy-to-let, the makings of a new aristocracy - only this time it won't even be one that endows universities or patronises the arts or leaves behind beautiful buildings belonging to english heritage
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