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Topic Starter Topic: Liposuction - Spronyq3dm1_alpha3
Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-11-2012 04:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I did not finish in time for the Maverick Mapping Competition of 2012.

But this alpha is the result of six weeks of playing around in the editor. It's
based on the courtyard of the building where I work. Feedback on everything is
appreciated!

Download alpha 3 here.



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Last edited by Infernis on 08-24-2012 07:46 AM, edited 5 times in total.
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-12-2012 09:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Anybody?



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KittenIgnition
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PostPosted: 08-13-2012 12:16 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I really like the map. It's in alpha, so I can't exactly criticize the textures, but the layout is nice. It would suck for duel because it's way too open, but for CA it's great.

The item placeholders need to be sprites or some such nonsolid brush because they get in the way a little bit.

I really want you to complete this map. I'm not one to give suggestions, but I would love to help in any way I can.
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 08-13-2012 12:50 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


They have jumppads in your workplace? :eek:
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-13-2012 02:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Good point KittenIgnition. The map is meant to be a larger FFA map. No duel play intended. I will surely finish this map, regardless of the amount of feedback, so don't worry.

I wish Eraser. Beats using the stairs.



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obsidian
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PostPosted: 08-13-2012 06:22 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I know it's alpha, but it's currently very "square", lots of 90-degree angles and the outer walls being basically a big box. I would mix things up a little for some more interesting shapes, add some angles, expand the perimeter of the map with some other alcoves, etc.



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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-13-2012 11:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for the reply. I know what you mean, because I personally like curves a lot. But this map is based on a real place, so I want to stick as close to it as I can.



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AEon
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PostPosted: 08-13-2012 12:16 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The first thing any mapper, at least when trying to build a MP map, learns is that the real world almost never makes for interesting or good (layout-wise) multiplayer locations. Thus, if at all, MP maps are always augmenting reality and taking certain creative liberties.

Now if this is a study in real-world architecture, than that is fine. But you should not expect much playability.

Not wanting to be a downer here... but that's just the way it is with MP maps.
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-13-2012 01:02 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Of course, 90% of what you see here is creative liberty. I'm just referring to the angles and stuff. That has to do with the geometry I intend to use. I put quite some time in coming up with what I hope to consider, a decent layout :)



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dONKEY
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PostPosted: 08-13-2012 04:27 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


For some reason parts of this remind me of Q3DM7 :/
Layouts not my strong point...one thing that struck me as I was running about was the scale of the room with the RA section and YA. I have no idea what you are planning to fill that area with, but at the moment it seems huge.
One more small thing, I don't think anybody mentioned, the triggers on your JPs don't extend to the wall behind them so it's actually possible to jump right over the trigger and miss the JP.
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-14-2012 12:13 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sharp dONKEY, sharp ;)
QDM7 is my favorite map and one on the RL areas is indeed a reference to this.

Good point about the JP's. City also said the RL area and the main area are too big. So in the next release I'll make both areas about 1/3 smaller.



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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-14-2012 02:25 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
I know it's alpha, but it's currently very "square", lots of 90-degree angles and the outer walls being basically a big box. I would mix things up a little for some more interesting shapes, add some angles, expand the perimeter of the map with some other alcoves, etc.


I misinterpreted this. Looked up alcoves in the dictionary. I understand what you mean now. Gonna work on a new version based on all the feedback I got (thanks all). To do list:

    Decrease the main atrium to about 1/3 of its current size.
    Change the layout accordingly.
    Decrease the stair size by half in the raised RL room.
    Change the rest of the room accordingly.
    Fix the size of the JP's.
    Fix the weapon markers.
    Add the skybox.
    Add minor detailing.
    Change item layout to suit layout changes.



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CZghost
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PostPosted: 08-16-2012 01:32 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Lots of people use curves applied to be used with axial brushwork. This helps to smooth right angles a bit...

Also have seen alpha versions with custom textures used as well as in upcoming beta versions... I think these alpha versions are the last by authors as they indicate they'll move into beta soon...

IMO, alpha stages may be in range of about 5-7, beta slightly more, as the community points to some major issues... While the level is completely changed and community don't find any issues except for some minor, that don't break the gameplay, you're ready to release final version...

I'm now making Entity Plus mission, that I have to decide release as final straight and do repairs only if necessary (breaking up playability)... You can watch the changes and release at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=47881

Keep the developing, I'd see your final map ;)



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Eraser
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PostPosted: 08-16-2012 01:37 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sorry to go OT a bit here, but CZGhost, if you create (complex) single player missions, I would suggest you at least pick a few people who can play test the map before releasing it to the general public. Both me and deqer have found out the hard way that creating SP missions is much more prone to bugs creeping in there than any other MP map. You definitely want to iron these bugs out before making a final release.
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CZghost
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PostPosted: 08-16-2012 01:59 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It may be marked with final and if you find any bug that's breaking up the gameplay, tell me and I'll repair it and release new version that exactly repairs issues in the release...



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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-16-2012 11:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


CZghost wrote:
Lots of people use curves applied to be used with axial brushwork. This helps to smooth right angles a bit...

Also have seen alpha versions with custom textures used as well as in upcoming beta versions... I think these alpha versions are the last by authors as they indicate they'll move into beta soon...

IMO, alpha stages may be in range of about 5-7, beta slightly more, as the community points to some major issues... While the level is completely changed and community don't find any issues except for some minor, that don't break the gameplay, you're ready to release final version...

I'm now making Entity Plus mission, that I have to decide release as final straight and do repairs only if necessary (breaking up playability)... You can watch the changes and release at http://quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=47881

Keep the developing, I'd see your final map ;)


No offence CZGghost, but I've read your post 3 times and except for the first line, I don't know understand what you mean?



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fKd
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PostPosted: 08-16-2012 08:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


good start, scale seems off tho... was gonna mention the giant room, but thats been covered. (i even uploaded a pic and everything lol )
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-17-2012 03:46 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sorry for the trouble fKd!

Updated the first post with a new screenshot and download link to alpha2. As stated before, these are the changes:

    Decreased the main atrium to about 1/3 of its current size.
    Decreased the raised RL room by half.
    Fixed the size of the JP's.
    Fixed the weapon markers.
    Added a skybox and some minor detailing (roof texture isn't properly aligned, not sure if I'm going to keep it).
    Changed the MH location.



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AEon
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PostPosted: 08-17-2012 06:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some thoughts:
  • First off we all need to be in the clear this is not a small FFA map, its a relatively large one with quite long-winding in-door corridors and paths. I mention this because the recent maps I looked at are probably 1/4 in size.
  • Even with 7 bots the map feels pretty empty.

  • The biggest issue I see with the map is the mostly flat, way to large, not (yet) very interesting central courtyard:
    • The very high walls suggest this is some form of penitentiary, IMO, not really a very likable place as setting.
    • The courtyard is at least 50% too large. The bots tend to collect here, thus you have one "primitive" (fun for a short while maybe) frag-fest.
    • It quickly becomes clear that any potential gameplay that might happen in the outer in-door paths becomes completely irrelevant, i.e. is ignored. Robbing the map of potential path diversity.
    • You also see that it takes ages to cross from one side of the yard (e.g. PG to YA) to the other, everything is open, and thus totally "unsecure".
    • The RA passage breaks up the flat floor, but the path looks very much like "alien geometry", something that does not fit into the map (OK, the different textures have a part in it). But steps simply cut into the arena floor look strange IMO, as if tacked on.
    • The bridge is a good start to add diversity, but you should but something on it. I would suggest a Quad :). Again the bridge is too much of a death-trap, due to its length.
    • The 5 Shards on a ledge, are a skill challenge? I was not able to jump (even with strafe-jumping-acceleration) to them from the med-level, from the bridge level no problem. The bots obviously will completely ignore the shards. I found it annoying not being able to get to the shards from med-level.

  • Since the map is huge, spacing out the special items more would be good. Especially the YA and the MH are too close to each other, while many other corridors/rooms are empty.
  • The map needs health... a lot of it. Not placing health in the central area might help, "motivate" to roam the outer paths more. And ammo too... I'd just plaster some throughout the map. This will also help the bots navigate.
  • The 3-tile wide paths are a good width overall.

Some layout suggestions:
  • I felt the PG arena and the RA where too much of a dead area of the map. Even though the items here *do* have worth.
  • The RA corridor, IMO, could use a connection the the outer parts of the map. A JP from the RA up to the PG e.g. would make the RA path less of a dead end. But to be honest I am not much of a fan of it. I would maybe place some interesting tower or so behind the PG (presently there is nothing behind that wall) and put the RA inside there. OR add some room behind the PG.
  • When standing in the center of the map, looking at the PG, I felt stairs, to the left and right of those going down to the RA, only these leading up to the PG (rounded off on some way), would make the PG platform more relevant as a gameplay location. Instead of 3-tiles width the PG platform (not the path there) could then be 5x5 tiles. That would also start to fill out the empty central yard more.
  • I'd make the bridge in the yard only 2 tiles wide... to make it more of a risk, and less massive. And put the Quad up there.
  • General comment: Overall I would love to see more paths on the upper of med levels onside the yard, to add some more vertical fighting here. Presently the PG is only sightly up, and the bridge is only a relatively insignificant area.
  • I would indeed try to cut down the (length) distance from YA to PG by 50%... and cut the width (bridge) of the yard by 33%.
  • I know this is ugly, and work, but this means all your outside corridors would have to be compacted and rethought (Are they necessary? Do they improve pathing? Are they not too longwinding? etc.)... this catharsis :owned:... IMO would help the map greatly to trim out all the unnecessary fat condensing the map the the essential layout and paths.
  • Pointer: The extra wide stairs in the RL room, are nice... but don't really yield much worth, IMO. Just make the room larger and the path longer.
  • Since you have very simple geometry in place, trimming down the size should actually be done relatively quickly. And while cutting down, you will need to solve problems e.g. in pathing... solving these will automatically lead to new non-trivial solutions, that usually make the map much more interesting.

Some comments on what theme you are planning to detail out might be helpful, for feedbackers (another new word ;)) to understand where you are trying to go with the map.

    Image
a) Here I sketched out some of the comments above, especially size-wise. Were the stairs for the PG might go. Removal of the JP, the doorway above the bridge might be moved more to the right.

And something for the center of the arena: I hinted at a fountain (dropped into the arena floor) with steps around it. But anything to make the arena less flat will do. Also sketched where the new PG JP might go.

    Image
b) Examples to stair width reduction, but giving the item area, here for the RL more space.

    Image
c) Small thing, space behind the JP with 2 tiles is too narrow, would suggest 3-4. Presently you are jumping into a wall. In purple you might consider cutting odd corners as a design element, to make pathing less rectangular.


Hope that helps in some way.
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KittenIgnition
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PostPosted: 08-17-2012 10:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Please read everything AEon said. I agree with pretty much all of it. The new version felt a little sucky tbh, worse than the first one. All the structures are too wide while the actual areas are too small. It feels cramped and uncomfortable.
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-17-2012 10:23 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Now that's feedback :)

Yes, this is meant to be a big FFA map for at least 8 players.
I noticed that too, 11 would probably work as well. Hell, even TDM is possible.

It was bank actually, which doesn't make it more likeable ;)
All very good points. Expect for shrinking it as much as you suggest. That would basically make it a tourney map. But I'm open minded and curious as to how others feel about this.

I'll fix the ledge jump, add the Quad, health and ammo's in the side rooms and most of your other very good suggestions.
I'm kinda surprised about your comment regarding the RA though. Because it's supposed to be a dead end. Not so sure what else to do with that area. I like the stair suggestion which would allow me to shrink the courtyard a bit further. Have to think this through. Also, I pit the YA and MH together to counter the RA as I read in the competitive mapping guide. Apparently I misunderstood this?

Funny should mention the fountain because in my first build I had containers there. Couldn't find a model for it and what I built out of brushes wasn't satisfactory so I dropped the idea.

This is an old black and white picture of the building:



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Last edited by AEon on 08-17-2012 03:05 PM, edited 1 time in total.Reason: lvlshot'ed it
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-17-2012 11:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


KittenIgnition wrote:
Please read everything AEon said. I agree with pretty much all of it. The new version felt a little sucky tbh, worse than the first one. All the structures are too wide while the actual areas are too small. It feels cramped and uncomfortable.


Fair enough. But everyone is saying it's too big and your saying it's cramped?



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AEon
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PostPosted: 08-17-2012 03:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Infernis wrote:
Also, I pit the YA and MH together to counter the RA as I read in the competitive mapping guide. Apparently I misunderstood this?

I am pretty much an anarchist, so there might be merit to "that guide". But would that not be more for a Tourney map? In FFA it should be a lot more about spreading out the "powerups", IMO. Especially in a large map.

I am wondering about that image... might be a known architect even... cannot put the finger on it though. Looks a bit ominous, IMO.

Another solution for the large area would be to split it into more than one continuous area. E.g. two arenas... and to give both arenas a different height.

What KittenIgnition may be referring to is e.g. the RL stairs, I suggested to make the stairs less wide... but the space other than the stairs are not that large... the in-between platforms from one level of stairs to the next were pretty much 3-tile path width.
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KittenIgnition
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PostPosted: 08-17-2012 08:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Infernis wrote:
KittenIgnition wrote:
Please read everything AEon said. I agree with pretty much all of it. The new version felt a little sucky tbh, worse than the first one. All the structures are too wide while the actual areas are too small. It feels cramped and uncomfortable.


Fair enough. But everyone is saying it's too big and your saying it's cramped?

It is big (not TOO big for me, but it is really big and empty), but the way some of it is laid out makes it feel a little cramped in places: the thick walls and small hallways, the excessively wide stairs and platforms... it all adds to the feeling of it not being a very good scale.
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dONKEY
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PostPosted: 08-18-2012 05:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


KittenIgnition wrote:
It is big (not TOO big for me, but it is really big and empty), but the way some of it is laid out makes it feel a little cramped in places: the thick walls and small hallways, the excessively wide stairs and platforms... it all adds to the feeling of it not being a very good scale.

You see this is exactly why I find alpha builds a total waste of time. I get the whole layout and pathing and item load thing, but to be honest for the life of me I cant see the point of this process.
So you get the alpha all correct. Then what? You build geometry and structure and details and nothing bloody fits anymore.
OK so the areas are big, who is to say Inf doesn't have a damn good idea as to how to fill the space?
You get the ceilings and corridor widths the right size, then how to detail them up without them being made too damn big in the first place.
Unless all we want is maps that look like multi-storey carparks, for me this fixation on layout and alpha builds goes too far.
Inf, make something damn freaking cool, if it turns out playable then great, if not at least its the best art you could make at this time.
That to me is all that matters. Make good art.
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-19-2012 04:27 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thank you for the encouragement dONKEY! It's a process we have to go through and it's up to the mapper to filter what's useful and what's not. So far, I've received very useful feedback and if the majority says it's too big (story of my life) I have to do something about it.

Based on feedback by Aeon and City, I've decided to rebuild about 50% of the map. I've already come up a with a new RA area based on Aeon his suggestions. Currently working out a new floorplan. I'm going to use the MH/YA area, the shotgun stair, the upper level to the lowest RL area and the bridge as a base (no comments regarding those sections so it's probably good). Everything will be more compact and I won't forget the bridge suggestions.



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fKd
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PostPosted: 08-19-2012 04:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


"You build geometry and structure and details and nothing bloody fits anymore."

that would mean youre doing it wrong, you have to build the detail to fit the layout.. not the other way round.

good arts good and all but this is a game, if the game play sucks then who will care? it's a lesson that we all have to remember sometimes... its a fine balance
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KittenIgnition
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PostPosted: 08-19-2012 06:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


fKd wrote:
"You build geometry and structure and details and nothing bloody fits anymore."

that would mean youre doing it wrong, you have to build the detail to fit the layout.. not the other way round.

good arts good and all but this is a game, if the game play sucks then who will care? it's a lesson that we all have to remember sometimes... its a fine balance

Nobody really cares about new maps these days tbh. There are enough maps to play already, a few new maps won't be played much at all.
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dONKEY
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PostPosted: 08-19-2012 10:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


fKd wrote:
some stuff

Lol, ok ok.
Beer and the internet when you are a bit pissed at something quite unrelated don't mix!
My badly put point was to judge an alpha on scale depends to a very large extent on what you intend to build in that area. A 256 unit wide and 512 unit high corridor may seem too big. But to detail the interior without restricting player movement means for alpha layout you would need to start with the scale that size.
I dunno perhaps you guys have a different system. My alphs build normally becomes (at least) the basis of my structural hull, that way I do not have to build a second map over the top of my detail map. That's really what I was getting at. If I were to build tight enough so the alpha scale was correct I wouldn't be able to work that way.
Am guessing you guys do not use structural hulls in the same way or make the hull after the detail map. One map for me is normally three maps. Structural caulk hull, detail map and clip map.
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Bliccer
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PostPosted: 08-21-2012 02:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


dONKEY wrote:
fKd wrote:
some stuff

Structural caulk hull, detail map and clip map.


Dito. Otherwise you are going to extend everything again and again just to fit in there. Especially for terrain I guess big basic rooms are necessary.
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AEon
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PostPosted: 08-21-2012 08:19 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That is the reason I don't believe in alphas... I build the map with the design already in place (not the last detail maybe) but the important things. Since these inspire more changes that usually make the map more interesting.

Extending is not that problematic, if you do not do it all the time. Having to solve a problem i.e. due to lack of space, spurs creativity... if you are a good mapper, you will find a solution that is non-trivial... and those are also much more interesting.
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Infernis
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PostPosted: 08-24-2012 07:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Updated the first post with a new screenshot and download link to alpha3.

No changelist because I basically rebuild everything. It's more compact, less flat, less cramped and even the bots play better on it now. I hope this one is finally a step in right direction. Changed the name because it suits the map better. It's only about a third of it's original size. I incorporated all the feedback I've gotten. Oh, Aeon, you can now jump the armor shards from mid level ;)

I hope you all like this one better. It took me a while to understand what Kitten meant with it being cramped. Now I think I understand. To tackle this, I've completely rebuild all the paths and especially the RL area has been changed significantly.



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KittenIgnition
Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 250
PostPosted: 08-24-2012 09:59 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeeeeeaaaahh!!

You knew exactly what I was talking about, and fixed it accordingly. Good job.

Outside of real gameplay, there are still a few issues with the map though. The jumppads feel really out of place; they feel like they're just thrown in corners and really awkward. They're either boxed in on 3 sides, or left completely out in the open, and both of them feel awkward. It could just be the textures, though. I suggest curving the walls outward a bit wherever there's a jumppad, as that would make them feel a lot less cramped, and it would prevent you from hitting the corner when you go off of one.

Alternatively, you could keep it like this and just texture and detail it properly. It's hard to tell the way some things look as-is.
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AEon
Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 08-24-2012 11:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Improvements:
  • I like the overall smaller more condensed size of the map. This feels about right now.
  • The YA "pit" you created with some steps is nice.
  • Interesting container texture, reminds me of Sin.
  • The PG area now looks a lot better and more interesting IMO.
  • Accessible shards help remove the frustration factor for those less skilled in strafe-jumping (like myself). Trouble is bots will never be able to get to them.

    Image
In the GL/RL arena I'd close off some of the area under the TP, here in pink. The area does not really seem necessary to me.

I very much wanted to jump from the GL onto the platform on the other side, but failed, adding some grate-like thing on both sides could make that jump possible. You could then also save one JP (on the ammo side) not the one up to the GL.


Suggestions:
  • The MH room still feels a bit unfinished. You might want to add some grating above the MH to let the folks entering the room from the "above path" not from the PG side, look down to see, "ah jumping down is worth it to pick up the MH".
  • A "window" on the container side to the RA and possibly one grate from above at the PG would also help "tell" folks, "yes, the RA is there".
  • In the RL area (the non-GL one), the main stairs to the RL could be made wider again. The overall depth of the room (axis central area to the RL) on the lowest level here still seems to be too wide... i.e. empty.
  • In the same RL area... I am not such a fan of these "floaty" platforms... you are trying to do something with the pathing up there (i.e. a path to the Quad), but I am not sure it really is that completely necessary... just something to think about a bit.
  • As was mentioned your JP placement looks a bit random... they don't really fit into the "map sketch"... seem very much put there for good measure. You will want to think about some geometry making their location more logical. I understand why the JPs are there, to help vertical pathing... they just need more "reason", IMO.

I have not played against bots yet... I still have the feeling some of the pathing could be improved, but that would require a lot more testing to determine.
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KittenIgnition
Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 250
PostPosted: 08-24-2012 04:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Do you have MSN or some other contact outside of these forums? It would be great to talk to you about this. I have so many ideas! 8D
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