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Shipyard 17
https://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=51412		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Martinus [ 09-27-2015 05:55 AM ]
Post subject:  Shipyard 17
Yo ready for this?
Attach your seatbelt, and let's get start! Wohoo!

Here is my new map where you can messing around on a shipyard (or a part of the shipyard)!
Based on q3dm17 layout.

The package contains:
- 2 maps (one for Team Arena, and one for EntityPlus mod)
- A new douchebag bot (The Swat, local superdude)
- A weapon replacement package (separated package, optional to use)

Some screenshots:




The weapons:


I recommend you to use 64-bit Quake 3 client for better performance like:
IOQuake3 http://ioquake3.org
Edawn Mod client http://edawn-mod.org
Or any other 64-bit Quake 3 client...

Please if you try my stuffs, then write a comment here, and let me know your opinions, or ideas. Let me know it's fun to play.
I'm also looking for help to fix bugs (maybe lagg?). So I'm open for ideas, opinions, or anything which can help me to make this stuff proper and fun.

Download link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rii2mq6eer9t4 ... 7.zip?dl=0

Thank you, and hope you'll enjoy it. :)
(Am I miss something?)

Entityplus plus map info:
You got support by the boost system, which gives you power up (3x chance to Quad), with a little health bonus.
After every 4th boss killed, a weapon will spawn on the map somewhere (you got shotgun, after killing the second Orb boss)

-Martinus
Author:  AndyW [ 09-27-2015 07:50 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Uuh i dont have IOQuake and TA, and my normal Q3A installation is not working right anymore. I have to try next time i clean up my system. :tear:
Author:  Martinus [ 09-27-2015 12:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Uhm... ok. As you feel it.
Author:  m4xpower [ 09-27-2015 12:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
terrible, just terrible!
my machine runs gtav and all kinds of other current games. huge ta-maps and the edge of forever for example run at 125fps.
so the issue is not the q3-client, the os, lack of ram or whatever.
your map runs at 20fps... /quit and rm -rf was all i could think of while testing it. i'm sorry.
Author:  Martinus [ 09-27-2015 01:38 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
I did not meet any lagg on my computer (it runs at me with 60fps and r_swapmapinterval enabled.)
Only met fps drops (-5 -10fps), when bots shooting a lot of projectiles.
A 64-bit client helps you, I tried it and tested (try the Edawn mods client). Thats why I proposed that.

So then...
Any tips'n'trick for this situation? (The map has full vis with foghull, caulked faces which not seeable in normal situations, etc... that was what I could do for it.)

"rm -rf" What I can think about this is... this kind of maths which needs a solution? Because I don't know what that means. :question:
Author:  Eraser [ 09-27-2015 11:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Martinus wrote:
"rm -rf" What I can think about this is... this kind of maths which needs a solution? Because I don't know what that means. :question:

It's Linux-speak for deleting a file
Author:  Eraser [ 09-27-2015 11:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
I just played the map (the ep version). It looks real nice. Framerate isn't great (with the standard Quake 3 client) but it was playable.

It was super difficult though, mostly because the map's scale is huge and you only get a machinegun. I picked up a shotgun later on which helped a little when I managed to get close, but I kept hoping to run into a Railgun somewhere or at least a Rocket Launcher. Did I just not look well enough?

Other than that, it's pretty well made. I like how you get random boosts, that certainly helped (especially getting a MH and Quad combo :D)
Author:  Eraser [ 09-28-2015 12:09 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
I tweeted a link to this thread on the EntityPlus twitter account and added a news item about your map on the GitHub page (and added it to the list of map downloads).
Author:  Martinus [ 09-28-2015 02:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Thank you Eraser. If I get help to solve the laggy situations, I will update the map. I'm actually thinking on a second (smaller) boss fight map.
The starter items contains a grenade launcher too, and after killing 4 bosses, a weapon spawns on the map somewhere (shotgun spawns after killing the second Orb boss).
Author:  CZghost [ 09-28-2015 04:36 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Unplayable on my set up. I think you have too much details in your map. Try to lower number of polygons by removing some unnecessary details or replacing them with flat texture variant. Not every detail in map needs really it's own 3D variant as some details could be done with just high-res texturing. Then optimise your map using more or less detail brushes. Keep in mind that detail brushes need to be sealed off void as compiler ommits detail brushes and shaders first, then it starts to compile them in addition to the base map construction.

Clever use of detail brushes raises compile speed and lowers r_speeds peaks. Use not too much or too least detail brushes and shaders, too much shaders in your map will also lower performance on older set ups. Be sure to keep basic map construction as simple as you can, then add details by using detail brushes on top of it. It's not good to keep whole map in full-vis, it lowers performance. Use foghull and far-plane distance to limit the vis size.

Clever use of far-plane and fog hull will prevent displaying HOM effect (Hall of mirrors - edgy jagged video error that can be seen when looked into caulk face or unused mirror surface (where it lacks misc_portal_surface in front of it), it harms eyes and the only way to get rid of it is using cheat-protected r_clear cvar set to 1 - needs to load the map with cheats enabled - developer mode using /devmap command).

Be sure to keep r_speeds as low as possible, but keep in mind of layout visibility and the far-plane with fog hull settings. That will keep your map playable also on older set ups that lack much power of today set ups.
Author:  CZghost [ 09-28-2015 04:38 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
To shaders, though, keep them as fewer as possible. The less shaders, the more performance. Use shader only where necessary (fog hull, teleporters, glass and glossy surfaces, special effects), do not overuse them.
Author:  Eraser [ 09-28-2015 05:02 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Fog doesn't block VIS at all does it? So it does nothing to lower r_speeds. It actually makes things slower because the game needs to render a volumetric fog effect.
Author:  Martinus [ 09-28-2015 05:33 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Thank you Czghost to being helpful. :up:

I actually have an idea, how to increase the fps with the heights of Mount Everest (...or at least just a little more).
If I convert some brushes into (more) models, that should help me with it?
My map worth it?
Author:  Martinus [ 09-28-2015 05:37 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Eraser wrote:
Fog doesn't block VIS at all does it? So it does nothing to lower r_speeds. It actually makes things slower because the game needs to render a volumetric fog effect.


Foghull (especially on lower distance) can block the vis. Foghull+vis= good performance
Only works when the map has VIS (+setting the wordspawn what needs for the foghull like _blocksize and _farplanedist).
Author:  CZghost [ 09-28-2015 07:04 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
So you need to compile with VIS enabled. Anyway, converting some brushes to models won't help much, it just loses clipping so you will need then manualy add weapon clipping and possibly player clipping, which means additional brushes then. It can help to reduce clipping model of the map, but tris count will stay the same, it may even increase. Use models only for things that have too complicated structure that would be extremely difficult to make with brushes and patches (typically use some modelling software, Blender is good freeware modelling soft, you just need to download some script to convert your model to ASE file which can be linked in Radiant). For classic map structure and simple detailing I'd stay with regular detail brushes and patches. It is not a problem to make a cube of 1x1x1 unit wide in each axis, but making cube smaller than 1x1x1 unit, it could be pretty ridiculous to compiler to handle. Models are good as they follow the grid only by origin and the rest is based off vertexes placed around by modelling software, but for brushes and expecialy for patches the 1x1x1 unit grid is the smallest possible in Quake 3, no matter what mod you are using, it is strictly render issue...
Author:  Theftbot [ 09-28-2015 10:04 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
LOD man
Author:  CZghost [ 09-28-2015 10:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
For models the LOD does not exist. If you convert your BSP to ASE with q3map2, it simply takes some LOD for patches (mainly the lowest) and bakes them to the model file. Then using that model compared to it's original template looks ugly. But tris count is in average the same. It does not count that there are three or four tris missing because of lower LOD, the difference is almost invisible in the performance comparsion. Good advice is to not overuse details and shaders. It looks nice on screenshots, but the gameplay is nightmare on older sets...
Author:  m4xpower [ 09-28-2015 11:48 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
...just remove the damn fog and it might actually be playable.
Author:  AndyW [ 09-28-2015 12:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
del
Author:  sst13 [ 09-28-2015 12:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Image

#1 Performance killer
Use a much bigger tessSize value for your water! 256 or better 512 shoud do the job. (don't forget to adjust deformVertexes wave to 400 or 800)

#2 Performance killer
Turn all the far buildings into a simple 1024x1024 6-texture skybox. (maybe it doesn't work with foghull)

These 2 simple steps should increase your performance massive.
Author:  Martinus [ 09-28-2015 01:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Thank you sst13 the tips.
Now I'm trying it without foghull, and making that red area into _skybox (converting them to models).
Author:  Martinus [ 09-28-2015 03:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
May I ask how did you check that?
Author:  Eraser [ 09-28-2015 09:05 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
\r_showtris 1
Author:  Martinus [ 09-29-2015 03:03 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Eraser wrote:
\r_showtris 1

How is that check the performance killer areas?


Well, I could increase the fps (tested on my crapy laptop which is nearly has the same knowledge like an electric toothbrush), without foghull.
Now I'm going to test it with foghull (without fog, some parts of the map is visually empty).

If you have any ideas, what should I do to fill the visually empty places without using foghull, let me know please.
Author:  AEon [ 09-29-2015 03:15 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
This command is normally used to check vis... e.g. if in a map things are being draw behind a wall in the next room. But generally it helps to see the number of triangles (visually)... a high density of triangles is usually a bad sign... see the screenshot a few posts up.

What you will want to turn on as well is \r_speeds 1... this yields a few numbers of how many polygons are being shown... and most maps for Q3A try to stay under 15K.
Author:  Martinus [ 09-29-2015 04:37 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Keeping the r_speeds nearly 15k at my map is impossible. The average r_speeds is around 100-150k (originally it was 250k).

Does it will help, if I convert everything what I can to models?
Bad lights (or light options) can cause lagg?
Author:  Eraser [ 09-29-2015 05:04 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Start with the hints sst13 gave. Reduce tesselation of the water and convert the red geometry. Thing is, the red geometry is barely visible while playing the map anyway due to the thick fog.
Author:  Hipshot [ 09-29-2015 05:15 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
If you can get it down to say 40-50k max tris that would be good.
Author:  KittenIgnition [ 09-29-2015 07:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Lights generally don't cause any additional lag because we use lightmaps here, so it will only impact compile time. Go crazy; lighting also has the greatest visual impact.
Author:  Martinus [ 09-29-2015 10:13 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
I changed the waters shader and however I'm not deleted the background buildings as how sst13 advised, but added some non-visible brushes, which blocks the vis. Now, the background buildings only can visible while the player on the roof near the portals.
Also decreased the _farplanedist drastically.
Now the average r_speeds are between 50k-110k (on my shitty laptop it causes 20 fps instead of 3-4)

Does it helps if you change the r_primitives to 2?

And how is the guns works?
Author:  Martinus [ 09-29-2015 03:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
Could somebody test it please:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ctkzryuukid8 ... t.pk3?dl=0
(original package required.)
I did what I could...
Author:  AndyW [ 09-30-2015 06:04 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
del
Author:  Martinus [ 09-30-2015 06:39 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
:p
You're kinda funny!
So then it's not that laggy anymore? That would be great.
Author:  CZghost [ 10-02-2015 07:47 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
You did not make any changes to the structure, just removed all entities standard Q3 does not support and so on? That's pretty good performance boost. So sad it does not work for Entity Plus, it is great idea of battle with boss :)
Author:  Martinus [ 10-04-2015 07:22 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipyard 17
I did a little reconstruction, and in the pack, there's a boss fight map already.

But, there's an update for the mapS, download link at the first post!

What's changed?
-Decreased detail brush number (preventing LOD)
-New light options
-Changed water shader
-Background buildings (only visible while you are on the roofs)
-VIS changes (re-hinted and added some invisible walls to block the VIS more often)
-A little fun:

Why do the chicken cross the road?
Because there's no fog!
Gahhahahaha! :clownboat:
(But the chicken also mist that.)
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