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Elite
Elite
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
Posts: 18099
PostPosted: 11-22-2005 06:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Oeloe wrote:
Nerd alert, btw. :p Nah i'm just as much a cyber-athlete wannabe as you are probably. :icon31:


Hah speak for yourself - i'm no wannabe! :p

Oeloe wrote:
Ugliest grapics settings (high picmip, vertexlight) do not necessarily give the best visibility btw. Flat lighting can make make brush edges blend in with the background so that they are almost impossible to see. Teleporter models can become unrecognizable because of picmip. High picmip and vertexlight distracts me more than it helps me, because of the lack of visual input. For some reason i need crisp details to feel at home in the virtual arena. :) So visibility/distracting elements have a different meaning for different people.


Interesting. My main reason for using high picmips is that it reduces the visual complexity of the level, so that the foreground (enemy) stands out more against the background (walls, floors, etc).

It's basically optimizing the signal to noise ratio. Perhaps you could paste a quake3 screenie that shows what enemies look like against the background?




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Elite
Elite
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
Posts: 18099
PostPosted: 11-22-2005 06:19 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Here are a few snippets of ancient posts from the CE archives (they're offline unfortunately):

[xeno]Julios wrote:
My biggest piece of advice with regards to aiming is to be able to fluidly use both keyboard and mouse for aiming. The keyboard is a more complex device since you have to serve two functions with it, namely controlling the model's position (which directly effects (sic) your dodging patterns) as well as sliding the xhair as a form of target acquisition. (the mouse also serves a dual role when you are aiming while moving)

Circumstances are too varied to be able to generalize which mouse and aiming techniques belong to each weapon - depends on the momentary combat configuration (i.e. is your opponent blindsiding you to avoid your shotgun blast in which case a quick instinctive wide flick may be the most effective choice; is he in front of you jittering with such a narrow strafe pattern that you don't even need to strafe or adjust mouse to hit him with 100 percent of your machine gun bullets, is he traversing a circle that is concentric to your own circle strafe in which case you'd need to use a smooth mouse turn to follow the target with lg; is it a long distance rail gun battle where the entire combat is based on strafe patterns and timing (left-right-right-left etc)


[xeno]Julios wrote:
re strafe patterns - the way to think of them is exactly that: patterns.

The key to overcoming your opponent is to acquire his patterns (strafe, tactical, strategic, psychological, etc) and generate your own patterns that are "invisible" to him. Applied to strafe patterns, this is where you try to discern what sort of pattern your opponent is doing with his strafes. The brain cannot generate something out of nothingness thus we have to draw on constructs in our brains - whether these be mathematical abstracts or rhythms (strafing to the beat of a particular rhythmic beat - preferrably breakbeat-esque) - they are patterns that can be acquired.

Once acquired, you will not have to match the opponent's strafe patterns tit for tat, left for right, but rather be able to know exactly where and when to fire.

This all happens preconsciously... - the more patterns you are exposed to the larger your "database" becomes - the more you try to generate your own patterns, the larger your repertoire grows. (database isn't a very good metaphor, as pattern recognition doesn't necessarily function around distinct patterns).

Of course this must be matched by both finger dexterity (assuming you use your fingers for movement) to be able to generate complex and even chaotic sequences, and reflex/hand eye coordination so you can act upon your predictions of the opponent's patterns.

As for thinking in combat - at the beginning you should try to analyze what you are doing, if not real-time then at least immediately after each encounter. By applying your cognitive processes early as opposed to purely relying on trial and error reinforcement, you will accelerate the learning process. Eventually, these lessons will be internalized to such an extent it will become second nature...

So basically an intelligent and moderate blend of cognitive mediation and natural human learning will be optimal imo.




Last edited by [xeno]Julios on 11-22-2005 06:23 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Timed Out
Timed Out
Joined: 02 Aug 2000
Posts: 38063
PostPosted: 11-22-2005 06:22 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


u got mail juls.

Well.. alrite. a PM actually. but you got one.



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"Maybe you have some bird ideas. Maybe that’s the best you can do."
― Terry A. Davis


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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
PostPosted: 11-22-2005 06:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Julios I would like the sum of all of your competitive gamer knowledge compiled into a book and mailed to me at your earliest conveniance.

Thank you. :icon32:

Failing that an email to my gmail account will suffice.




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Elite
Elite
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
Posts: 18099
PostPosted: 11-22-2005 06:48 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


hey no sweat - got 20 grand? I'll have it for you in 6 months :p




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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
PostPosted: 11-22-2005 07:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If I was independantly wealthy I would, saddly I am a student. :tear:




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Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 80
PostPosted: 11-22-2005 08:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


a book..would be nice




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The Illuminated
The Illuminated
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1530
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 02:31 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
It's basically optimizing the signal to noise ratio. Perhaps you could paste a quake3 screenie that shows what enemies look like against the background?
Yeah i get that, but for me world detail isn't noise (with some exceptions ofc). :) Maybe there isn't a fundamental reason why i want that detail except that i'm used to it, but it the entire map just feels foreign to me when all the details are gone.

Promode skins reduce the necessity of picmip to almost zero, imo (depending on the texturing of the map too). The S/N ratio might be lower at picmip 0 and lightmap lighting, but the contrast ratio is even higher than it is with vertex. I use overbrightbits 0 and r_intensity 1.65 to reduce shadows a bit though (and i used it to solve the bright desktop issue when minimizing Q3 with an nVidia vidcard).

I think that for many players the reason (bigger than visuality) for using high picmip is that they have been looking at the Quake textures for years and they don't care to see them anymore. For me it's the other way round (i can't stand the Wolfenstein 3D look).




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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 09:25 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It took me awhile to get used to picmip 4 but it just makes things feel smoother to me, everything just falls away and its just about running the map, and lining up shots, very zen like. :icon32:




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Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 80
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 02:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


i dont like the weapon symbols, they're all blurry and stuff, it's just a blod of color




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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 03:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Meh, doesnt bother me at all, things where weird at first I guess, but it was more strange for me to start going with drawgun 0.




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Eh?
Eh?
Joined: 25 Mar 2001
Posts: 32049
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 03:14 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


NitrousFlare wrote:
i dont like the weapon symbols, they're all blurry and stuff, it's just a blod of color


Retarded because it only takes one tiny bit of material code to fix this...




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Commander
Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 125
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 03:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Omfg it's getting fucking worse. Will someone duel me on Q4 to give me some pointers cuz I don't even know wtf am doing wrong now. And the tip Foo gave me isn't working anymore.



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Were you born a fat slimy scumbag puke piece of shit or did you have to work on it!?


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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 04:22 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Where are you in the world?




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Commander
Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 125
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 04:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


United States, on the east coast



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Were you born a fat slimy scumbag puke piece of shit or did you have to work on it!?


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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
PostPosted: 11-23-2005 05:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ah, I am in Alberta so a few hours earlier then you, I wont be able to play till midnight your time...




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Recruit
Recruit
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1
PostPosted: 09-07-2006 04:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
Some excellent advice in this thread - I should check this forum more, since it seems to have taken over from the old Competitor's Edge forum.

Krazy_k, perhaps treating quake as a martial art will help - I know it certainly has helped me.

Your motor visual system is absolutely fundamental in becoming a good player. Higher level skills such as movement, weapon, combat, and strategy will progressively develop, but it is key to optimize the machine that is your body, if it is to successfully interface with the game.

First, you might want to treat the game with the respect that a martial art, or competitive sport requires. This means preparing your mind and body for intensive learning sessions. It means devoting sustained bouts of attention, which requires patience, among other things.

If you cannot do this, then you need to address the problem on this level.

The most direct interfaces between your body and the game are the eyes and the upper body motor system. You thus want to ensure high quality visual information (visual config, monitor settings, etc), and high quality motor functioning (seating position, mouse dynamics, keyboard config).

Think of the mouse as your sword. You want to develop a confident and useful grip and a way of handling the mouse. As has been alluded to in this thread, there are many different sets of muscular groups that can interact to control the mouse. Some players use the muscles in the upper arm as a primary controller (pivoting at the elbow), while others use the forearm muscles (pivoting at the wrist). At either extreme are the chest and back muscles (pivoting at the shoulder), and the metacarpal muscles (flexing and extending your fingers).

Some players use many or all of these muscle groups in an integrative fashion - that is, they use multiple groups at once, like a set of gears, while others specialize in single groups.

Think of conducting an orchestra with a baton - for wide sweeping movements the entire arm moves as a whole (chest and back muscles), while for tinier movements, the conductor's fingers may barely twitch.

The positioning of your body with respect to the desk and mousepad, and the positioning of the mousepad, with respect to your desk, will need to be adjusted to accomodate your own unique style. Work with your body type, just like learning complex movements in the gym requires you to work with your own particular body structure.

In general, I find that the further in your mousepad is (how deep into your desk), the more you are favouring the broader strokes (chest&back), while keeping the mousepad closer to the edge of the desk favours wrist movements.

Grip is also crucial. I only have extensive experience with the wingman gaming mouse, so take that into consideration. Depending on the style of the mouse, and your own preference, you may choose to use either a two finger (2f), or a three finger (3f) grip. A three finger grip allows for more control, since you involve an extra group of muscles (fiver fingers instead of four) to modulate the control of the mouse. However, a 2f grip allows for a tighter control unit. To understand this, consider that with a 2f grip, you can grip the side edges of the mouse with your thumb on the left side, and the ring finger on the right side. With a 3f grip, it's the thumb on the left side, and the pinky on the right. From my own experience, it seems that the ring finger is stronger and better coordinated than the pinky, and being able to control the sides of the mouse with strength and coordination is an advantage when trying to modulate the lateral velocity of the mouse. For instance, if you're flicking to the right, you can use the muscles that are acting upon the right side of the mouse to act as a braking force which can control the movement and duration of the flick.

However, this advantage may be not as significant as it seems, and the advantages of a 3f grip may outweigh this relative insignificance.

Unfortunately, many three button mice have the three buttons quite close together, which cramps and restricts the fingers. The wingman (which is essentially dead) allows for a 3f grip where all three fingers are in relaxed position - with the same amount of spread as there'd be if you were sleeping. Take this factor into consideration when choosing the grip.


Another important aspect of grip is the parts of your hand which are in contact with the mouse. This is a function of the shape of the mouse (flatter mice = less surface area in contact with palm, humped mice = more), and the arch of your hand. You can increase the arch of your hand by pivoting your hand upwards, around the wrist, and by flexing your fingers (so that fingertips rotate toward palm).

Notice that if your entire hand is in contact with the mouse, it is virtually impossible to use the metacarpal muscles to control the mouse. A quick experiment will demonstrate this clearly:

Grasp your mouse so that your entire palm and all the length of the fingers are in contact with the mouse. Now draw a circle on the screen with your cursor (or a figure eight or whatever).

Now grasp the mouse with a curved arch so that only your finger tips are in contact with the mouse, and draw the same figure. be sure to use your metacarpal muscles to control the movement.

Notice the surgical precision?

Assuming a 3f grip, when you flex your middle three fingers, the cursor moves down, and when you extend them, the cursor moves up. When you flex your thumb, the mouse moves right (if thumb is positioned on left edge), and when you flex your pinky, the mouse moves left.

Note that you now have five independent modulators which can seamlessly interact with the mouse in order to produce a desired movement.

Some people prefer more surface area in contact with mouse (with much of their palm in contact with mouse), because it provides a more stable and rigid contact with the mouse from which to use the higher level muscle groups, and it is more comfy; This would make sense if you didn't want to use the metacarpal muscles at all, but if you do want to incorporate them, you'll need a grip that compromises palm in favour of fingertips. You must develop your own balance, and experiment.

The way in which you configure your mouse settings should work in concert with your control style. The key thing to consider is that with larger movements of the mouse, you can afford lower sensitivities, and smaller movements require higher sensitivities. For instance, if you use all wrist, your muscles can only move the mouse over a small distance on the mousepad. As such, you'll need to use a higher sensitivity so that you can cover more area with the crosshair with those small movements.

Lower sensitivities have the advantage of increased aiming resolution (which is why sniping requires low sensitivity).

Higher sensitivities have the advantage of being able to cover more crosshair area per unit time.

If you used all wrist, and a low sensitivity, you would need to twist the wrist multiple times to do a 180 degree turn. It wouldn't really be a flick, rather than a series of flicks, each of which is interrupted by picking up the mouse. This is because the wrist only allows the mouse to arc over a few centimetres.

If, however, you used all chest and back, you could move the mouse over a metre long arc, and would thus be able to do a 180 in one flick even with a very low sensitivity (course you'd need a very large mousepad and would need to make room for the arc by moving your keyboard).

Now of course, pivoting your entire shoulder in its full lateral range of motion takes longer than pivoting your wrist in its full lateral range of motion, but the point is, they are both continuous and finely controlled movements, which is important in flicks.

Furthermore, you are not going to use your entire shoulder range to control the mouse (unless you're tom cruise in minority report using the holographic interface). More likely, you'll use a combination of some of the lower groups. Once you have decided upon your mousing style, you can then start tuning your sensitivity so that you can easily flick, with one quick and continuous motion of the involved muscle groups, over a respectable crosshair area.

180 degrees is a good standard for a flick, so tune your sensitivity so that you can flick 180 degrees within the margins of your muscle movements.

Mouse acceleration can be a benefit depending on your preference. If you choose to use it, I would recommend the following tuning method:

Turn off accel. Choose a sens at which you can comfortably and accurately track the "foveal" portion of the screen (that is, the tight centre of your focus over which the xhair tracks).

Next, start increasing accel until you can do a natural and effective 180 flick.

You can fine tune this by adding or decreasing sens, and/or adding or decreasing accel. Using the console is critical here, as you can input the values directly using even decimals.

Find your own balance over time, and don't be afraid to experiment. I radically changed my own paradigm of mouse control years after I had reached a high level of control with one style - in effect I went from one extreme to another. Took me months to get used to the new style, and to start mastering it. Took a lot of open mindedndess to stick with it so I could really assess it properly.

I went from a 2f grip with mouse right at edge of desk, super high sens/no accel, and wrist only (you could have nailed my wrist to the edge of desk and i'd've still been able to play), to a 3f grip with mouse a foot and a half into desk, with super low sens and a decent amount of mouse accel, using all my muscles integratively. Both configurations used the bridged fingertip approach (fingertips also allow for tiny and ultra-fast modulations to aim).

You may also want to devote some energy into learning about the game engine itself. The fact that you don't know what timescale is probably means that you haven't experimented much with the engine (through the console).

You also may want to start training in an rocket arena environment.

This allows for a focus on combat and weapons training.
Whoa!!! Man, I thought I know this game, but I dont't think that's right now.




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