So Foo tries to make things nicer and implement new features, accidentally breaks something temporarily and all of a sudden the sky is falling?

Figured you two might be interested in this little script I messed with today...
Apr 29 (2 days ago)
twelve.scoff.lenard@gmail.com
If what you are looking for is my opinion then I think it looks almost as bad...
1:03 am (19 hours algo)
Foo
Opinions need to be constructive, or not given at all :thumbsup:
7:02 am (13 hours ago)
Foo
And now I've read your very helpful outpourings on quake3world, can you tell ...
7:14 am (13 hours ago)
twelve.scoff.lenard@gmail.com
to Foo
More options 12:24 pm (8 hours ago)
You don't take it upon yourself to repair, clarify or edit in any way someone else's code without consent. Even if you do own the domain. We didn't realize working with you meant it was your project. We never did anything without talking it over completely. It was good of you to help us, but we didn't want that much help. Now we don't want to have anything to do with it. That's all.
- Show quoted text -

Reply Forward
Foo
to escapedturkey, Lyle, me
More options 12:51 pm (7 hours ago)
Lenard,

See the bottom of this email for various bits of conversation between me and Lyle. Please read them first then return to the top of this message to read the rest.

I've had little dealings with yourself up to this point, but Lyle never expressed reservations or concerns to me regarding altering the code on the site. Indeed, he understood that bringing the site up to date with well formed CSS meant altering the PHP code, and he also said he was finding this difficult.

Outside of that, I have no more information. There is no universal holy sanctity on PHP code, but if either yourself or Lyle had wanted the code to be untouched that should have been explicitly expressed to me. This is an obvious courtesy, which I wouldn't expect to have to explain to anyone.

Likewise, when someone is unhappy with a collaborative project the first thing they should do is explain their feelings to the other members of the group, and normally this leads to a resolution that benefits everyone. Your first reaction, however, was to post " Has anyone seen that piece of shit files.quake4world.com?" on a public web forum. The only explanation I can come up with is that you're young and don't have much experience with group working.

If that's the case, fair enough, everybody makes mistakes. I'm certainly not blameless in that I didn't clarify sufficiently with Lyle if he had any limits on what he wanted me to do. However, it was clear that I intended to edit the code, and if Lyle did have any reservations about this, it would be natural for him to have raised them on his own initiative at that time.

After reading through all of this, please let me know if your stance has changed in any way. I've copied Lyle and ET in on this mail, since it looks like communication is one of the core problems.

- Foo


Lyle: You should've waited like a day... I'm like halfway through formatting everything for css
3:12 AM
too late now I guess

me: It's alright, shouldn't take me long to mow through the rest ofthe code.

Sorry if I caused you undue work.

Lyle: Nah
3:13 AM
You know, the original plan was for me to develop the site and have nothing to do with managing it.

...


heh
3:14 AM
Well the way it turned out nobody stepped up (including Lenard) so I ended up doing what I had to do.

And he still hurried the release.

me: It's all good.
3:15 AM
One can't expect to mold both coding skill and design skill at once without some professional experience in both.

Lyle: Honestly I just don't think I had enough time to run the site and develop it at the same time.

I'm fairly busy as it is.
3:16 AM
me: It should run itself, after a point.

We just need to get it to the critical mass where it's useable end-to-end for a few people, without needing access to the DB or code or such.

Lyle: It should have been at that point before we released it


...


Lyle: Yeah, I just don't think it was ready...
3:18 AM
Have you actually edited any of the php?

me: Yeah a fair old chunk.

Not logic wise, but there was a whole lot of presentation stuff fused in that needed splitting.

if you've done some other stuff that would need merging, I can do it for you.
3:19 AM
Lyle: I already wish I could do the whole thing over.

me: Everyone always wants to start over. You never get anywhere that way.
3:20 AM
It's just obsessive coder nature, you get so far and there are errors and you've changed your mind, and a blank page is always the most fun to work with.
3:21 AM
Lyle: Yeah, but I just look back at it and think "Oh, why the hell did I set this up like that?"

me: Just takes a bit of changing is all.

Lyle: But I think that about the entire site

...


Lyle: I acutally have to go to a show.

Have fun with the site though.

me: oic. Enjoy that :

Catch you laters

Lyle: I'm probably going to build another one in a couple weeks, haha.
3:37 AM
but yeah, see ya

....


Foo
to files
Apr 19
Would anyone have any objections to me doing some cosmetic work on the files site? Specifically tweaking the CSS so the site is more usable. Right now there are a couple of areas which really stand out as irritating when you try to use the site, that I'd very much like to address.


to me
Apr 20
Not that I have any objections to that, but like what?

- Show quoted text -

Reply Reply to all Forward
escapedturkey
to Foo, me, Lyle
More options 1:02 pm (7 hours ago)
Hitting reply to all:

I'm not sure why Lenard is bashing Foo's work. I think it looks
fantastic. I also really like the wiki style of Quake4World.com, it
gets to the point and addresses all the important information.

There's something called common decency and respect and you don't go
around posting in public forums bashing the people you are supposedly
working with toward a community project.

If you disagree to the point of wanting to leave the project, that's
fine, say your good-bye and wish everyone good luck. Burning your
bridges by airing dirty laundry in a public forum is really a bad
idea. There is only one person that looks bad in this entire situation
and that's Lenard with his forum temper tantrum. He should post an
immediate retraction and apology if he wants to save face and leave
this situation peacefully.

-- Turkey


On Mon, 1 May 2006 20:51:36 +0100, you wrote:

>Lenard,
>
>See the bottom of this email for various bits of conversation between me and
>Lyle. Please read them first then return to the top of this message to read
>the rest.
>
>I've had little dealings with yourself up to this point, but Lyle never
>expressed reservations or concerns to me regarding altering the code on the
>site. Indeed, he understood that bringing the site up to date with well
>formed CSS meant altering the PHP code, and he also said he was finding this
>difficult.
>
>Outside of that, I have no more information. There is no universal holy
>sanctity on PHP code, but if either yourself or Lyle had wanted the code to
>be untouched that should have been explicitly expressed to me. This is an
>obvious courtesy, which I wouldn't expect to have to explain to anyone.
>
>Likewise, when someone is unhappy with a collaborative project the first
>thing they should do is explain their feelings to the other members of the
>group, and normally this leads to a resolution that benefits everyone. Your
>first reaction, however, was to post "Has anyone seen that piece of shit

>files.quake4world.com?<http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19722>"

>on a public web forum. The only explanation I can come up with is that
>you're young and don't have much experience with group working.
>
>If that's the case, fair enough, everybody makes mistakes. I'm certainly not
>blameless in that I didn't clarify sufficiently with Lyle if he had any
>limits on what he wanted me to do. However, it was clear that I intended to
>edit the code, and if Lyle did have any reservations about this, it would be
>natural for him to have raised them on his own initiative at that time.
>
>After reading through all of this, please let me know if your stance has
>changed in any way. I've copied Lyle and ET in on this mail, since it looks
>like communication is one of the core problems.
>
>- Foo
>
>Lyle: You should've waited like a day... I'm like halfway through formatting
>> everything for css 3:12 AM too late now I guess
>> me: It's alright, shouldn't take me long to mow through the rest ofthe
>> code.
>> Sorry if I caused you undue work.
>> Lyle: Nah
>> 3:13 AM You know, the original plan was for me to develop the site and
>> have nothing to do with managing it.
>>
>
>...
>

> heh3:14 AM Well the way it turned out nobody stepped up (including Lenard)





Reply Reply to all Forward Invite escapedturkey to Gmail
twelve.scoff.lenard@gmail.com
to escapedturkey, Foo, Lyle
More options 1:28 pm (7 hours ago)
Save face to who? I don't care what some forum goers think of me in any way.

I am only upset because kmg is upset. When he saw what you did with the site he deleted his account and decided to break all contact with you. That is because he thought you would be working together instead of you making it into your site, the way you want it. He was very upset that you were editing his code. The fact of the matter is, you edited the site so much that you entirely broke it. That doesn't sound like cosmetic changes to me. That sounds like changes you discuss with a group, especially before going live with them. That is the most ludicrous part in my opinion. When he was talking to you he was being polite. He already wanted off the project when he saw that you had edited it without talking to him. Have fun with your file repo, and I wish you great success.


- Show quoted text -

Reply Reply to all Forward
twelve.scoff.lenard@gmail.com
Saturday the 29th of April, 2006 by Foo I broke a load of the site functional...
1:36 pm (6 hours ago)
twelve.scoff.lenard@gmail.com
Not to mention adding a giant turkey to his logo.
1:37 pm (6 hours ago)
escapedturkey
My logo has always had a turkey. For your information, the machine that is ho...
2:04 pm (6 hours ago)
escapedturkey
I don't see any discussion taking place. All you did was rant on the forum an...
2:07 pm (6 hours ago)
Foo
It is not and was not entirely broken for anything longer than about 5 minute...
2:52 pm (5 hours ago)
twelve.scoff.lenard@gmail.com
Yup. I am seeing how right I am. Your first course of action should have been...
3:10 pm (5 hours ago)
Foo
It seems you're not interested in trying to reach an amicable solution on thi...
3:18 pm (5 hours ago)
twelve.scoff.lenard@gmail.com
I'm over it, case closed.
3:56 pm (4 hours ago)
Foo
to me, Lyle, escapedturkey
More options 4:04 pm (4 hours ago)
Very well.

I've said all I can on the matter, so any future changes in your position are up to you. I can't say any more.

Meanwhile, the site is up and working, we've yet to hear from your brother (I do hope he has the decency to contact us directly rather than just through yourself, I don't consider him the kind of person to sulk), and we'll continue to be open to your return if you decide you wish to.

Hope to hear from you soon. If not, thanks for your involvement up to this point.
- Show quoted text -

Reply Reply to all Forward
twelve.scoff.lenard@gmail.com
to Foo, Lyle, escapedturkey
More options 4:24 pm (4 hours ago)
Yeah, I don't speak for him. Also, I don't sulk. I've told you
exactly how I feel and even made it public and I am done.

- Show quoted text -

Reply Reply to all Forward

to Foo, me, escapedturkey
More options 7:54 pm (39 minutes ago)
Lenard is definitely more offended about the whole matter than I am.
He's just kind of explosive. I can also guarantee that he has no
emotional connection to what the opinion of anyone involved may be, so
I wouldn't bother with him. That being said, he does not speak for
me. He speaks for himself.

I have not been avoiding contact with anybody, I just haven't been
going out of my way, and had no idea this conversation was taking
place.

Yes, I was rather hurt when I went to files.quake4world.com one day
and it was a completely different site. I realize my code had
problems (which I was stridently working to revise) and that I had
discussed with Foo some css changes, and letting him actually change
css elements to alter the design of the site. I told foo I would take
the steps to correctly format the code for css integration (well on
it's way, still on my harddrive), and that he could then do whatever
he wanted to that css. What I did not discuss with Foo was his doing
this himself. So I suppose Foo got anxious and took the liberty of
working through my code, formatting it as we had discussed, but how he
saw fit, and cleaning up what he saw as technical problems along the
way. Of course after this my homepage was almost completely gone.
What was even more disheartening was the every other page was
obviously left untouched, and because of css changes were almost
completely illegible.

At first I was shocked. I thought I had developed a bit of a
fledgling rapport with Foo wherein he would give me suggestions, we
would debate them, and the consensus would be implemented in a manner
befitting my vision of the site. Still my site. Not any more. Now
my code was majorly altered without my being given any notice
whatsoever. I felt invaded to say the least.

I immediately talked to Foo, just pushing him for a little information
and trying to judge his feelings on the matter, who was obiously
either somehow under the impression that I would have nothing against
the action he had taken, or simply had no qualms with the matter. Foo
also mentioned he had spoken with escapedturkey who I guess liked the
site (from my initial discussion with escapedturkey I thought the
respective links to quake4world.com and escapedturkey.com were
sufficient, as we had decided that the website should be completely
non-profit and definitely not exploited for invasive marketing), and
upon hearing this I decided there was not much I could do. I mean,
what claim do I hold over the project? The weeks of labor I put in?
Sure, they're worth something to me. I certainly did not donate $600
a month, or whatever it costs Foo for the
diskspace/bandwidth/subdomain. I'm definitely a minority stockholder,
despite being somewhat of a project leader.

All this aside, I'm sure I could have made my feelings clear to Foo at
the time and he might very well have listened and maybe even restored
my position of full creative control, but why bother? I'm sure Foo
can probably do it better anyway. Sure, I definitely wish Foo would
have just done it in the first place instead of letting me put my
effort into it for a while and taking over whenever he saw fit, that
seems sort of insensitive. But if Foo wants it, I guess he can have
it. If he's going to do as much as he's done so far, there's
obviously no need for me to stick around.

As for the new design of the site, I know it's somewhat irrelevant,
but that really is pretty ugly. I mean, my design had a
"function-over-form" layout, whereas Foo's has a
"tried-and-horribly-failed" look. Not that I hold Foo's or
escapedturkey's opinions against them, but the thing is pretty
ridiculous looking. And Foo did kind of just delete a lot of the
major elements that were real building blocks in the idea of the site.
Because of all of this, I really don't want to be associated with
what the site is now. I'll gladly be associated with what I created,
but not this.

I guess you guys can have the skeleton of my site.

kmg

- Show quoted text -

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to escapedturkey, Foo, me
More options 8:29 pm (0 minutes ago)
Why the hell would I apologize for Lenard? Forget about Lenard. The
fact is, NONE OF THAT STUFF YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR EMAIL HAS EVER BEEN
MENTIONED TO ME. That's what this is all about. If you wanted a
banner, why didn't you ask for one? What the hell is this "Foo and
I"? I built the website! Not Foo!

> Apparently, it seems you have a lot of issues with just about every
> aspect of where the project is going.

The only issue I have with where the project is going is that I wasn't
the one to take it there. But hey, if Foo wants to take away my site
it's his prerogative. The fact is, throughout all my dealings with
Foo (and despite his effort in furthering the community) and yourself,
I've found you both to be completely devoid of social sensitivity.
There, I said it. You guys cannot understand this, and therefore I
don't want to work with you.

Thanks.


On 5/1/06, escapedturkey <escapedturkey@escapedturkey.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 1 May 2006 19:54:28 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >site (from my initial discussion with escapedturkey I thought the
> >respective links to quake4world.com and escapedturkey.com were
> >sufficient, as we had decided that the website should be completely
> >non-profit and definitely not exploited for invasive marketing), and
>

> That insuation of 'invasive' marketting isn't appreciated. There are
> no pop-ups and it merely shows a banner and link to my site.
>
> Foo and I wanted to boost my advertising more since I'm putting down
> about $600.00 a month for the file server. I was weary of it first,
> but it seems okay now. The banner is non intrusive and neither is the
> cute turkey.
>
> $600 is a lot of money to most people. I appreciate the business it
> brings because not only does it help my business grow, but it also
> allows me to fund this project and future projects more -- it's
> logical and makes sense. We hope to support Prey, QuakeWars, and other
> Doom 3 engine games in the future.
>
> Apparently, it seems you have a lot of issues with just about every
> aspect of where the project is going. I personally find Foo's updates
> to the site well designed; it's straight to the point, and very
> difficult to get lost.
>
> On a side note, Lenard's public attacks on the project and Foo are
> completely unacceptable, and I see no apology for it, which leads to
> me to believe his opinions and postings are being supported by
> yourself.
>
> Thank you,
>
> EscapedTurkey =)
>