another post on my way to immortality

Let's get some perspective: The vocal online community is a small (even tiny) percentage of the people who buy games. It's arrogant for us to assume that developers should cater to us. Look at the posts on all the Q3A messageboards..if they top 2,000 I'd be surprised. What would you do, if you were them? I know I'd tend to ignore anyone who even shows a hint of ranting. Why? Because it just doesn't matter at all. Developers don't even bother reading a post that slams their work, in most cases, because they realize that they can't change opinions, and because such posts usually aren't expressed in any sort of intelligent manner.

I have Q3A *AND* UT - and guess what - I play them BOTH. Mainly cause I like Q3A and a friend likes UT - so we compromise and play each other's 'games'.

I really could give a rat's tuckus about anyones opinion of me or what I do - The hundred million dollar question is:

WHY do you?

If you like UT and not Quake - what drives you to come onto a message board FOR Quake 3
and bash it and its players?

Immaturity?
Insecurity?
Just plain f'ing stupid?

I dont get it - but then I prolly never will.

Everyone just chill out and have fun -

Remember -

I would just like to add that when the first of the Civilization games came out, I paid $100 for it ( Australian ), I just bought UT for $89.95 and I expect to pay $89.95 for Q3:A and many other games.
Most N64 games cost $99 to buy.
My question is this, with the advent of CD-ROMS, and the "then" lack of cd-burners, why haven't prices dropped at all???
Personally, I think this idea that warez is the main reason for inflated prices is nothing more than a silk screen for the bigger picture. That nobody wants to ruin a good thing.
With the CD-Key, you would then expect that Q3:A should be considerably cheaper, this isn't the case!
Software piracy has always been used for an excuse for over inflated gaming prices, and we've lapped it up for years!
Anyway, I'd rather buy a game, I like seeing rows of boxes on my bookshelf, it looks neat

On Q3:A vs. UT, I don't have an opinion yet, although I can say that I find both games fun.
Personally, I prefer the bots on Q3.
I have been known to throw my mouse around and hurl abuse at my monitor everytime Sarge pumps my stomach full of lead.
1 on 1 dueling is so new to me, so at the moment I'm constantly coming back to try and kill major and sarge in nightmare modes in the tourney maps.
I like how Q3 kinda limits the amount of camping one is able to do with such a slow reload on the rg, whereas I get infuriated playing the facing worlds CTF map on UT with the sniper rifle being pinned on me so much so that right after I respawn I'm dead again.
Infact, I downright hate most of the CTF and Domination maps for being either too tight or just too big ( I think firingsquad made a more articulate explanation of this..).
Mind you, Assault just utterly rocks and is something fresh (atleast, I think it is...anyone know of something similar?).
I'm really looking forward to what the mod community can come up with regarding this feature.

I don't see what everyone is getting so worked up about though, I'm sure that all of us here play more than just ONE fps.
I've played about 4 in one day ( Shogo---still a cool game imo, AvP, quake 2 and unreal) and that's not including Q3A and UT!, and now we're down to arguing about only two? Doesn't anyone else here feel cheated about that?
Where's all the other cool games then???
Anyway, I'm new here, so I guess I should say hello......

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Nailgun rokkx; icq 55 970935

Any developer will tell you, NO software is bug free. The UMIX OS has been around for 30 years or so. It's still not bug-free.

What all this appears to be is the "my dog is better than your dog" syndrome. People choose sides and then try to justify their choice. It's human nature and evident everywhere - Mac vs. Windows, Packers vs. Da Bears, NY vs. Miami, FSU vs. Va. Tech (wait, scratch that last one). The best choice is to choose both and like each for its own fine qualities.

One thing is missing in Q3A vs. UT though. Folks can talk aout what game's better until they are blue in the face, but they can only talk. I think it would be ultra-cool if someone developed a server that could interface the two games. Imagine that? Quakers playing their game against folks playing UT. There'd be some hellatious team and CTF matches. It would be the ultimate way to settle the argument between the two, or at least to expound your personal convictions. I'm not even sure if it's possible to do such a thing, although since it is all just binary code, there must be a way.

Wouldn't it be nice to see Epic and id come together to develop such a server as a favor to their fans. Each side could shake hands, get past any animosity, and demonstrate a little cooperation between the biggest players in the industry. It would go a long way toward healing some of the wounds that have been inflicted lately, and would surely give both Quakers and Unrealers something to look forward to at the same time. Maybe we could all become a gaming community again instead of taking sides.

posted 12-10-1999 08:19 AM          

Speaking of what id Software promises....Did anybody notice that on the back of the Quake 3 Arena box (at least my elite edition anyway), it says 5 capture the flag maps included???? I bought this game expecting 5 ctf maps, what do I get??? 4...

to Quote from the back of the box under multiplayer:

"Cast yourself into a multi-player mosh-pit of 26 challenging maps filled with secrets, traps and hazards configured specifically to the quake-match style of gameplay. Plus 5 Capture the Flag maps to test how well you play with others.

No other game to date has even come close to capturing the same *feel* that the Quake series have. Turn down the lights, crank up the volume, and you are *there*...

Standing ovation for the folks at Id for delivering all that was promised. It was a long wait but the final product is superb. Ugh, q3test1/q3dm7 for over 6 months but I still loved it every day of it...

If there's one thing that I could call "the best" feature of Q3A it would be the voting system. I/we have waited for something like this for a long time. Now we get to play the maps and gametypes that we want to play instead of server hoping for hours on end!

Harcore Quaker and Id fan-boy,

-Nanook

posted 12-10-1999 08:42 AM           

Sincerely,

What is this crap about people not being allowed to say anything bad about quake3 (or at least you dont want to hear about it, how sad). If you dont like it well dont play it crap. I dont like and I will not play it anymore but I can still let you know that I dont like it.

Both games are keepers. We should be glad that we have such a choice today. Depending on my mood, I can fire up Q3A, UT, HalfLife, or Delta Force and play the way I feel at the moment. If I want my heart to pound it's Q3A for DM or UT for CTF. HalfLife if I want something a little slower and more strategic. Delta Force if I want to hide and stalk. And if I feel really masochistic, I play Rogue Spear on Terrorist Hunt and crap my pants. To say one is "better" than the other really limits the unique experiences they each offer.

One thing that really bothers me is that the gaming community is usually pretty harsh on developers. Like you mentioned Mr. Steed, it's a no-win situation. I'm a software developer myself and you guys don't relalize the LIVING HELL these guys go through to get a product out. You have to realize that every quality game is a labor of love. You could not pay ANYBODY to work as hard as these guys do. They only do it because they have a vision of something they want to create and it's more important than anything else in their life. And they keep pushing until THEIR vision becomes reality. We're just fortunate that *their* vision pretty much coinsides with *our* vision. To pick at the final product because it isn't everything to everybody is petty.

Do we think for one minute that id needed to make Q3A? That any of them wanted to "throw away" another year of their life just so people can say "Your game sucks man!"? Heck, they could've moved to the Bahamas any time after Doom and never been heard from again. We should be glad that they have a vision and a drive to make it real.

* BZZZZT! * Wrong Answer! It was COMPLETELY unplayable. I spent alot of time waiting for the perfect patch to come out to make the game playable... It never materialized. Lag and unresponsive play was what I was stuck with. It was summarily deleted off of my system once I completed the single-player game.

Then Epic decided to make some money off of their poor multiplayer capabilites in Unreal. It was called Unreal Tournament... I guess peeps will pay for what they should have gotten the first time... not me...

I payed for Unreal.. I expected to get decent multi and single... I didn't get either (and Q2 was nearly flawless out of the box... go figure...)..

Quake 3 also == An almost abysmal 'Pure' CTF game.

Paul Steed: You talk about how Q3 is Pure deathmatch (yes). Pure fun (doubly yes). Pure quality (debatable with the few lingering bugs, but damn near it)... It is very fun (yes), but nowhere near pure ctf (doubly yes). Since Q3CTF was included out of the box, many CTF purists would have expected you to say, "Pure deathmatch. Pure CTF. Pure fun. Pure Quality"... But with CTF in its current state that couldn't be said.

I have one question. Why is it acceptable to get the pure dm game, but ctf is rocked and destroyed and mutilated? I'm sorry to say to you guys that love only dm there at id, but many ctf players were expecting a pure ctf game. Not the 'lets strip out everything that made ctf what it is the past 3yrs and make it dm with flags'...

That part is my only gripe. I guess if I could stomach 1/1 dm or ffa for long periods of time I would have no gripes with Q3 at all. But I'm a CTF player first and foremost. It's saddening (and at first maddening) to see the spirit of CTF trampled the way it has been in Q3A...

Btw, you should read a post that I made in another thread. I think it sums up the utter disappointment many CTF players feel about *our* mod and how id handled it. It is very level headed, no flaming, or anything like that. Take a read. Might change your mind on some of the 'myopic' people that criticize your game. :-)

Last Post on the First Page

Last thing... I agree with a previous poster. One reason why you hear soooooo many outcries about Q3 is because when I think id I think quality. And expected such in Q3A: CTF. I got it in Q3A: DM, but definitely not the CTF. And that is why so many people like me are driving you guys nutz about it...

--
RD-Natoma
http://www.reddragons.com/

Q3A and UT are good games.

The Id guys spent thier 18 months working on artwork, engine, and levels (ooooo curves... but all the same exact theme ), and polishing thier deathmatch game.

The Epic guys spent thier 18 months(or whatever) working on better net code, Bot AI, level design(Hmmmm varied environments...), and TALKING bots , and different modes of play.

OH and Dinc:

I remember buying Quake2...I remember reading stories about the YEARS of engineering that went into the game to make it a world unlike any seen on a PC before. I remember being sucked into the single player mode and thrashing baddie after baddie. I remember boggling at the incredible scenery. The engine kicked ass. The monsters kicked ass. Then I just HAD to play multiplayer. It had to ROCK over Duke Nukem.
* BZZZZT! * Wrong Answer! It was COMPLETELY unplayable. I spent alot of time waiting for the perfect weapons mod to come out to make the game playable... Unimaginative levels, weapons and dickish opponents was what I was stuck with. It was summarily deleted off of my system once I completed the single-player game.

Then Id Soft decided to make some money off of their poor multiplayer capabilites in Quake2. It was called Quake3: Arena... I guess peeps will pay for what they should have gotten the first time... not me...

I payed for Quake2.. I expected to get decent multi and single... I didn't get either.(ok so it was DECENT)

Lesson learned... Gimme my UT (and Neocron....)

If I understand you correctly you have niether game and all your facts are based on assumptions.

posted 12-10-1999 10:43 AM          

This is r e a l l y simple folks, here's the deal:


Man-hours spent by a programmer making $45k/yr to earn the money to buy his copy of Q3A:

About 2.


Man-hours spent by a minimum-wage college kid to earn the money to buy his copy of Q3A:

About 8.


Man-hours spent by id software to develop the game sitting in that box you pulled off the shelf at EB, namely Q3A:

More than you can count, and a helluva lot more than either of the above figures.


Talk about a good deal for us...! 'Nuff said.

1.) I was a level designer on Unreal and Unreal Tournament. I used to work for Epic Games, but now am the Level Design Director at The Collective. In addition ot being a game developer I am also a hard-freaking-core gamer. I've been playing Deathmatch for years. (although I must admit my passion is more persistent online world stuff this last year)

2.) I know Paul, and I wanted to share my comments not necessarily as a rebutal to his post, but to share thoughts from my unique perspective on things regarding Unreal Tournament and Quake 3 Arena.

-Begin comments

First off Quake 3 Arena is progressive. It is a brand new rendering engine and it's fast as shit. The artwork is excellent, the themes are consistently in "that satan stlye meets the future" The network code is flawless. The models are interesting, but I personally like more realistic ones rather than eyeballs and stuff. But you know what?> Fat ass clowns and internet female web masters make fun player models. I like it. It's FUN!!!

Fun. Yea damn right. Q3A is freaking fun as hell. I still do the same moves I learned from Hijinx in Quake 1, so the gameplay is the same. There's no major weird twists, thus I don't have to figure out any confusing crap to start having fun NOW. I like that. To me Q3A is the latest and greatest of a vision invented by id Software for pure adrenaline pumping hardcore splattering. Designed so YOU the hardcore gamer can get in there and have some fun and not have to be bogged down with small details. If you don't think Q3a ****ing rocks then I guess yer just NOT the same kind of human being as me-Red Blooded American.

Unreal Tournament is different. I enjoyed working on it. I like the teamplay aspect and the weapons--I should right? I worked on the game and voiced my opinions constantly.

So which do I like better? Funny you should ask. I'm currently playing Asheron's Call but I own copies of both Q3A and UT.

Both Q3A and Unreal Tournament are fantastic fun as hell quick get in and get out stay as long as ya like fun break from your regular programming. They are designed to be FUN, not monumental oscar candidates. Neither id nor Epic said they wanted an Oscar in the first place. They both wanted to make action games that were fun in addition to push their in house abilities and diretcions.

The result. You the gamer, have two kickass games to choose from. It makes no difference to anyone which one you like-You won't be uncool if you like one and not the other, if you like both, or hate them both. They are there for you-and at least they are different.

However, I agree with Paul that coming to a Q3A forum and saying crap about a game is about as lame as storing dryer lint in ziploc bags. Hardcore gamers don't do that stuff, they are too busy playing. So get out there, grab the game yer in the mood for and laugh yer ass off, have fun, kill, maim, destroy, and general be happy that due to companies like id and Epic that things such as these games exist.

Otherwise you'd probably still be playing Asteroids at the coin op arcade.

So in conclusion I'd like to say that I personally play BOTH. And the guys I work with here at The Collective love and play both. We are just that damn cool. We love all games (except those deer hunting things) We gte off on buying everything, playing everything, having fun, and watching as everyone's personal idea of a "dream game" slowly starts to unfold as technology begins to crep into the realm of anything is possible.