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Topic Starter Topic: Would you give up your sovereignty for world peace?
Cool Blue
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 02:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If someone tabled the idea of abolishing 'Countries' the world over in favor a single 'Earth' would you support it?

If the United Nations had the ability to create a global constitution ensuring free trade and human rights, would you toss the patriatism aside to try something new, or would you vote to keep things the way they are?


The inspiration this thread was quite obviously John Lennon.
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Cool Blue
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 02:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Oh.. :smirk:

I would. In a heart beat.
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Postal
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 02:58 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Of course, the US would nuke everyone if this happened.
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


interesting question.

I think world peace would emerge along with a unification of nations.

I don't think you can just traumatically dissolve nations into one and expect world peace to follow.
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Cool Blue
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:06 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
interesting question.
I don't think you can just traumatically dissolve nations into one and expect world peace to follow.


Well duh. :)

We would have to assume it would be an ongoing process, each country individually brought into the system to ensure stability during the transition. Something a bit like the EU.

Establish a unified dollar. Human rights charter, etc. then as countries meet these criteria or get close, the UN would begin to assist in the transformation.

Although it's not without it's hiccups, I'm overwhelmed with joy at what the EU has accomlished with eastern european nations over the last few years. And all without the use of force or sanctions. Just the simple prospect of a better life, with help from friends should a nation decide to change.
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Canis
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think there would be just as many problems, but only a different set of them. I'm not sure what exactly, but you cant expect everyone to get along just because they're under the same political umbrella.
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DooMer
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


NO! THATS THEIR GOAL. ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, AND BANK CONTROLLED BY THE WEALTHY WITH A SINGLE WORLD POLICE. THEY WILL CUT DOWN THE WORLDS POPULATION BY 2/3 TO HELP PREVENT UPRISINGS. WE WILL BECOME SLAVES, AND THOSE WHO RESIST WILL BE CONSIDERED UN PATRIOTIC AND HUNTED DOWN LIKE DOGS.
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Canis
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Cool Blue wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:
interesting question.
I don't think you can just traumatically dissolve nations into one and expect world peace to follow.


Well duh. :)

We would have to assume it would be an ongoing process, each country individually brought into the system to ensure stability during the transition. Something a bit like the EU.

Establish a unified dollar. Human rights charter, etc. then as countries meet these criteria or get close, the UN would begin to assist in the transformation.

Although it's not without it's hiccups, I'm overwhelmed with joy at what the EU has accomlished with eastern european nations over the last few years. And all without the use of force or sanctions. Just the simple prospect of a better life, with help from friends should a nation decide to change.


There's something a bit too idealized about this thought that doesnt agree with me. It sounds great and all, but first you'd have to get all the countries to agree on it, of which most would not because people are greedy for power (among other natural drawbacks). As well, I believe people (not individuals) are inherently nationalistic, and for the most part will fight like hell for their country. As such I see a bunch of conflicts occuring with the notion of a unified world-nation.
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


think long term, Canis, like maybe a couple thousand years into the future.
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Guest
PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


A better question would be would you let a country like the US invade and forcefully take over the world in the name of world unification?
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Cool Blue
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
A better question would be would you let a country like the US invade and forcefully take over the world in the name of world unification?


That is not a better question.
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Guest
PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Well the thing is, to abandon your sovereignty is basicly the same as accepting defeat from another country and that country's rule over your own. Whether it's through the UN or through a country which the US basicly runs the UN anyway it'd be the same difference except my question is more blunt and to the point making an awnser more truthful and less wishful thinking.
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redfella
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nationalism bears its mark on every people group on Earth. It is a natural, intrinsic, human quality that has existed for centuries... To challenge that fact by asking if we could deny our nationalistic beliefs is naive.



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R00k
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lol, nationalism isn't intrinsic, any more than nations are intrinsic.
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redfella
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


nationalism is intrinsic.



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Canis
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 03:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
think long term, Canis, like maybe a couple thousand years into the future.


Whew....that's a stretch. I'll be long dead. :p Still, i'm not saying it's impossible. Anything can happen in 1000+ years. Look at us today in comparison to the social systems of 1000ad. A lot has changed, however what it changed to was practically impossible to have predicted, even in retrospect.
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Dr_Watson
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:06 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Canis wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:
think long term, Canis, like maybe a couple thousand years into the future.


Whew....that's a stretch. I'll be long dead. :p Still, i'm not saying it's impossible. Anything can happen in 1000+ years. Look at us today in comparison to the social systems of 1000ad. A lot has changed, however what it changed to was practically impossible to have predicted, even in retrospect.


then look at the system the romans had in 1ad... not too terribly different. (a currupt republic that serves itself better than its people)
religion ruined progress for > 1000 years. And religious crazies are trying to thrust us into another dark age all over again.
world peace would be easier to achieve when people finally give up religion.
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Canis
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:07 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


R00k wrote:
lol, nationalism isn't intrinsic, any more than nations are intrinsic.


There is a notion of nationalism in the majority of people out there. However, similar to the chicken or the egg scenario, where this comes from is up in the air. On one hand it could be seen as an innate sense of community expressed through the recognition of a "nation" as a community of people that hold similar values of importance. On the other hand it could the initial formation of a nation (through greed, political influence, etc) that has defined what "community" is to most folks, upon which they then instill much importance.

Basically is it "community" or "nationalism" that people value more, and also, does it matter which comes first?




Last edited by Canis on 04-06-2005 04:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr_Watson
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


redfella wrote:
Nationalism bears its mark on every people group on Earth. It is a natural, intrinsic, human quality that has existed for centuries... To challenge that fact by asking if we could deny our nationalistic beliefs is naive.


that makes about as much sense as people having some sort of patriotism for what county they live in.

you can't be patriotic if you're waving the "Earth Flag"?
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Nightshade
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:44 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Absolutely not. It would only put more power in the hands of fewer people. There is no way that there can be any sort of global peace with the way humans are at the moment.
It would be funny to see all the jesus freaks losing their minds about it being the end of the world, though.
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-Replicant-
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


On the nationalism debate- nationalism can exist without having a state (nation-state) or a body of political leadership and policies. nationalism emerges from a shared experience, a shared goal for the future, common language and cultural characteristics etc. Palestine, for example, is a nation made up of Palestinian nationalism. It has no state, but yet it remains probably the ultimate source of authority for people who associate themselves with that identity. Nationalism is still a VERY strong force in the world, as it always has been. Even in the EU, people are simply adapting to a "European" identity, rather than an "Irish" or an "English" identity as existed in the past. Regardless, those Irish and English identities still survive in the people- it has been argued by many of the smartest men and women in International Studies today that nationalism is closely linked to man's innate need/yearning for connection and involvement in group dynamics. Thus, it can be argued that nationalism has ALWAYS existed as an innate part of human nature
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Maiden
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


would it cause my taxes to go up?
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Guest
PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think we might have to evolve beyond religion to be able to work as a world community.
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losCHUNK
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


probaly a much better chance of us making a faction with the same idea... lets say GDI

and china, korea middleeast n all that making another... lets say NOD

and then we'll fuck up the world
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Guest
PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lol what game was that again? C&C?
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losCHUNK
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 04:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


aye aye :)
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Tormentius
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 05:05 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
I think we might have to evolve beyond religion to be able to work as a world community.


I'd say cultural differences, hate, and greed present much more of a challenge to overcome than religious differences.
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Guest
PostPosted: 04-06-2005 05:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tormentius wrote:
Kracus wrote:
I think we might have to evolve beyond religion to be able to work as a world community.


I'd say cultural differences, hate, and greed present much more of a challenge to overcome than religious differences.


I agree, but I think overcoming this isn't something that's going to happen in one step. You need steps leading to this to have something like that accomplished. the first step would be to get rid of religion. The fact is religion is the reason many different cultures disagree with each other, either for religious reasons or land or habits. If you scratch out religion then you have people that simply disagree. And solving a disagreement like logical human beings is much easier than solving a dissagreement over who has the best imaginary friend. Because neither are being very logical.
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Guest
PostPosted: 04-06-2005 05:20 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


In an idealistic world...I've always been for it since my young age.
As I read it, I was already thinking about John Lennon.
How old are you?
My Beatles are always my favorite. First album I bought, vinyl disk.
I had the whole collection and I have some memorative cards we used to buy with a pack of gum.
I know...You, young guys don't know them much.
At least they had messages in their songs.

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Writen by: John Lennon

Pete
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Guest
PostPosted: 04-06-2005 05:25 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


stfu the beatles were all gay.
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Dr_Watson
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 05:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


whatever pete has been smoking, i'd like some.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 06:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


redfella wrote:
Nationalism bears its mark on every people group on Earth. It is a natural, intrinsic, human quality that has existed for centuries... To challenge that fact by asking if we could deny our nationalistic beliefs is naive.


lol, don't be silly. Nationalism is the civilized man's tribal affiliation.

Europe is no longer extremely nationalistic, and the continent is better off because of that. Aside from European soccer matches, I don't see too many displays of extreme nationalism in that area.




Last edited by Massive Quasars on 04-06-2005 06:19 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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Jackal
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 06:05 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
stfu the beatles were all gay.


spoken like a true person who knows nothing.
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mjrpes
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 06:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


pete wrote:
My Beatles are always my favorite.


No! They're MY beatles :icon33:
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redfella
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PostPosted: 04-06-2005 06:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
I agree, but I think overcoming this isn't something that's going to happen in one step. You need steps leading to this to have something like that accomplished. the first step would be to get rid of religion.


If you attempt to "get rid of religion" you in affect are creating a facist, independant 'state'... and will likewise bear the results of that decision (social upheavel and opposing cultural forces and beliefs). There is no "easy button" that you can push to just make religion disappear. In fact, you would in essence just be creating another 'religon' (of atheists, if you will) to fight against those whom already believe in their respective, and established, religion(s). Wouldn't work, I'd imagine.

You'd have to give reason, inspiration, and incentive for differing people to join in a common cause to work and live together. However, I honestly believe that there will never be just "one nation". Just look at all the different types out there... Different cultures, societies, people groups... religions. This is what makes this world great. We are not all just the same thing. We are not robots. We have an established identity w/ country, location, society and culture. We enjoy who we are and what we believe. Why change it?



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