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chopov
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 10:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Freakaloin wrote:
...the madrid building wasn't even steel...


Actually it was/is built from steel concrete, which as a matter of principle makes it way more resistable against fire than a steel based structure. WTC was mainly a steel structure which additionally was lacking of fire protective coating --> even less resistance against the fire.



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Last edited by chopov on 02-15-2005 10:35 AM, edited 2 times in total.
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Freakaloin
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 10:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lol...there was fire protective coating in the towers...don't be a dillweed...



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 10:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... case.shtml
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chopov
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 10:39 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


...even if it were coated, steel still is a weak material if it comes to fire.



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 10:56 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


chopov wrote:
...even if it were coated, steel still is a weak material if it comes to fire.


No it's not. Even a tiny piece of steel has to be stuffed under super hot coals to affect it's structural properties. Open flame can not melt steel.

But all these physical evidence (or lack thereof) arguments are just a lark. The remains of the towers were swept up and carried away immediately after the attacks, and no one was ever allowed to thoroughly inspect them. You show me some prominent civil engineer that ever actually inspected all the debris, and I'll believe what he says, as long as he doesn't work with the administration.

Saying why they did or didn't fall is complete speculation -- on both sides of the argument. Just because someone has an engineering degree or experience with structural damage, doesn't make a shit's worth of difference if he never put his hands on the debris.

How many automotive engineers do you know who can determine the cause of a car fire without ever being able to look at the car?
How many arson investigators can determine the cause of a house fire without ever being allowed inside of it?

The people who argue against all these 'conspiracy theories' are just as sheep-like as the people who argue for them, based on some unkown physical evidence.

If people were even curious, they would research into the obvious contradictions and coincidences of 9/11, like the perfectly timed training exercises that pulled every nearby fighter jet away from new york that day (which has never happened before), and the fact that Cheney was the one in charge of all such exercises, by a presidential executive order issued several months beforehand. Or the fact that FAA officials have testified that there were extra blips on their radar screens because of the exercise, preventing them from telling which hijacks were real, and which were part of the exercises. Or why the jets that finally were scrambled, flew straight out over the atlantic ocean and circled before coming back - and did so at low speeds - instead of flying towards the threats that were already known to be in the air. Or WTC7's collapse, which strangely nobody seems to care about the cause of.

The official story is a conspiracy theory by definition, so what's wrong with the others? None of them have ever been proven to be true, including the official one.
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Freakaloin
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 10:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


okay nitwits...explain why the owner of the buildings says this about wtc7?
http://www.infowars.com/Video/911/wtc7_pbs.WMV



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redfella
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:19 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Take note Freakaloin... Rook is someone that can argue his point and argue it effectively, all the while refraining from accusing others of being morons and dumbos. If you really wanted to express your point of view and ultimately get your point across, you need to learn how to speak to others with respect. So sit back and let r00k be your mentor.

Thanks for saving the thread Rook. Let the debates begin.



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:23 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Well thanks, but it seems more like when I post something, threads tend to immediately die.

And pretty often, I don't have the time to dig up links to articles I read months ago, so everybody winds up thinking I must troll the same sites as Geoff does.

I just wish more people would at least be curious. It doesn't seem that radical to me to demand an actual investigation into the biggest criminal act in our history. There was never an investigation.

There was never an investigation.
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:24 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Freakaloin wrote:
okay nitwits...explain why the owner of the buildings says this about wtc7?
http://www.infowars.com/Video/911/wtc7_pbs.WMV
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redfella
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:25 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


ROOk: What about the 9/11 comission thingy?



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redfella
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:29 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ok Rook, answer me a question... It's a very simple question. I asked this the last time this subject came up, before q3w died, and I didn't get an answer back from anyone... Here goes:

Let's say that 9/11 wasn't a big act of terror, but more of a domestic "sleight of hand", if you will... Was 9/11 worth the price of democracizing the Middle East?



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:29 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


what about the warren comission thingy?



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:29 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


redfella wrote:
ROOk: What about the 9/11 comission thingy?


That wasn't an investigation. That was several Bush-appointed politicians trying to explain what they thought were the governments problems, and being forced under pressure to come up with some sort of reform to make things better.

There was never even a police officer involved in an investigation, much less FBI or counter-terrorism forces.

Asking the 9/11 Commission to perform an investigation would be closer to the equivalent of asking your mayor to investigate homicides and arsons. Don't you think?
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:30 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lol...no no0b...theres this stuff called oil...look into it...

u actually believe bush believes his own rhetoric? good one...
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chopov
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:42 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


R00k wrote:
No it's not. Even a tiny piece of steel has to be stuffed under super hot coals to affect it's structural properties. Open flame can not melt steel.


"under super hot coal".....sounds perfectly scientific :icon26:

Steel carriers in buildings start to deform at 800 °C. This temperature can easily been reached during a fire, especially when kerosene is involved. And then factor in the extreme load pressing down on the "groggy" steel beams from the above floors...



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 11:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


redfella wrote:
Ok Rook, answer me a question... It's a very simple question. I asked this the last time this subject came up, before q3w died, and I didn't get an answer back from anyone... Here goes:

Let's say that 9/11 wasn't a big act of terror, but more of a domestic "sleight of hand", if you will... Was 9/11 worth the price of democracizing the Middle East?


Well that would be a good question. Granted, it would still be speculation to say that it was domestic sleight of hand without a real investigation. But if that's what it was, and it was proven to be, then you would have to start talking about motives. Or, to be more accurate, motives would be a large part of the investigation, just as it is in any homicide or other criminal investigation.

And if I were looking for a motive in this case, especially considering Cheney's ultra-secret energy task force meeting before 9/11, and the maps of the Middle East oil fields they used (which were fairly recently released), I would have to seriously consider former LAPD Narcotics Officer Mike Ruppert's theory, that Peak Oil is the biggest factor driving all of our foreign policy right now. And if there were a motive behind the 'sleight of hand' then that is the biggest issue facing our country right now - as well as the rest of the world, which you can see from China's actions with Venezuela and Brazil and India and Russia, and all the other huge oil deals being worked in the last couple of years. We are just the only country who is approaching the issue militarily.

In other words, every major global player right now is plotting and scrambing for oil in one way or another - this much is all over the news.
Somehow, we are not diplomatically planning and forming strategic alliances the way the rest of the world is, but as luck would have it, we are fighting our asses off in the region that has most of the world's oil.

Then you look at Cheney, who said himself under the first Bush administration, that marching into Baghdad would be a mistake, and that removing Saddam Hussein would never be worth the price we would have to pay in lives and dollars to do it. Fast forward a few years, and he's working for Halliburton. Then he starts making speeches about how Iraq and Iran need to be open for American oil businesses.

Then he helps Bush with his campaign. Bush asks Cheney to help him pick a Vice President, and Cheney picks himself. Several months later, Cheney has a secret meeting with major oil executives, where they pore over maps of middle east oil fields, and staunchly and repeatedly refuses to allow anyone to know what was discussed.

Then, several months later, a massive attack is launched against our country, which by all measures should have and could have been stopped -- except for the fact that all of our fighter jets were coincidentally pulled out of the country on training exercises that day. And, again coincidentally, Cheney happens to be in control of all such exercises according to a presidential executive order issued several months beforehand.

Then you see the administration attempting to block any investigation into the incident, but under intense pressure finally selecting a hand-picked commission to tell the country what was systematically and organizationally wrong with our government to allow such a thing to happen.

All this in light of the fact that we were working on a deal with the Taliban for a trans-Afghan pipeline, which fell through immediately before 9/11 because they felt they were being ripped off in the deal. You may have heard the quote before of one of our officials telling them that they can have a "carpet of gold, or a carpet of bombs."

So 9/11 happens, we immediately invade Afghanistan and take over the government, and who just happens to be put in a position of power there, but one of the actual executives from the oil company (Unocal I believe) which was working on the pipeline deal in Afghanistan to start with.

I've done a lot of research and reading and, once again, I doubt I will have time to give links to all the articles I've read to support this. But in my opinion, at the absolute least, all these facts demand an actual investigation into what really happened; not a group of partisan politicians -- some of whom themselves have serious conflicts of interest issues, and even a few who should have rightly been called as witnesses themselves -- to explain to the country how they can make things better for us.
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 12:01 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


chopov wrote:
R00k wrote:
No it's not. Even a tiny piece of steel has to be stuffed under super hot coals to affect it's structural properties. Open flame can not melt steel.


"under super hot coal".....sounds perfectly scientific :icon26:

Steel carriers in buildings start to deform at 800 °C. This temperature can easily been reached during a fire, especially when kerosene is involved. And then factor in the extreme load pressing down on the "groggy" steel beams from the above floors...


I don't know what temperature at which steel begins to "deform" (another great scientific term), but it melts at around 1500° C.

I don't claim to be a structural or civil engineer, so I try not to debate these things. Whether the WTC fell from "deformed" steel, or from some perceived explosion (which I saw a NYC firefighter say that he heard in the building, btw) is really irrelevant to me. They came down, and no amount of discussing it on a message board is going to come any closer to the physical reason of why they collapsed.

I am talking about why the attacks happened the way they did.
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 12:06 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


redfella wrote:
Ok Rook, answer me a question... It's a very simple question. I asked this the last time this subject came up, before q3w died, and I didn't get an answer back from anyone... Here goes:

Let's say that 9/11 wasn't a big act of terror, but more of a domestic "sleight of hand", if you will... Was 9/11 worth the price of democracizing the Middle East?


To answer your original, simple question: No, I don't believe that it was worth it, but I think that's obvious. I also think it's irrelevant.
The question would be, would the perceived perpetrators or facilitators believe that it was worth it? And who can know the mind of a man?
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redfella
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 01:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Let me rephrase this (and just humor me a bit here); assuming that the 'sleight of hand' was done with true intentions to democrasize the Middle East, do you think it was worth it? Under this assumption, would not the freeing of millions of oppressed people in certain Middle Eastern countries be certainly a good thing? Would it not be a good thing to win the battle of hearts and minds in this region, so that they will somewhat favor America and what it stands for? ...As opposed to continuing to allow hate for the West to be compounded exponentially day in and day out by the repressive regimes that foster these feelings towards their young?

I'm a bit of an idealist... But, could it really be that shocking if Bush was really trying to change the world, for the good? Yes, I understand the part oil plays into this, so dont get me wrong there... But I don't think it's ALL about oil. That would be an extremely shallow and near-sighted mistake to make if all this was for oil.



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 01:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


redfella wrote:
Let me rephrase this (and just humor me a bit here); assuming that the 'sleight of hand' was done with true intentions to democrasize the Middle East, do you think it was worth it? Under this assumption, would not the freeing of millions of oppressed people in certain Middle Eastern countries be certainly a good thing? Would it not be a good thing to win the battle of hearts and minds in this region, so that they will somewhat favor America and what it stands for? ...As opposed to continuing to allow hate for the West to be compounded exponentially day in and day out by the repressive regimes that foster these feelings towards their young?

I'm a bit of an idealist... But, could it really be that shocking if Bush was really trying to change the world, for the good? Yes, I understand the part oil plays into this, so dont get me wrong there... But I don't think it's ALL about oil. That would be an extremely shallow and near-sighted mistake to make if all this was for oil.


jesus shut up...
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 01:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It would be a great thing if the Middle East was suddenly democratic and free. But it would not be worth it, in my humble opinion, for a few reasons.

First, no matter what the outcome is, I don't think any amount of other people's freedom is worth our government lying to us, and starting a war with our tax dollars under false pretenses - especially considering the number of people here who have lost sons, daughters, wives and husbands.

Second, I believe it's arrogant and foolish that the administration would actually believe that they would be come a prosperous democrcay just because we marched over there and told them we could. And even if they truly believed that would happen, it is still just their own opinions - they did not consult Congress or anyone else on this idea of democratizing the middle east - remember, the reason Congress irresponsibly wrote a blank check for war, was because at the time they were told there was an imminent threat - so they should be held responsible and accountable for the failed policy that they devised and implemented on their own.

Third, considering the above problems I have with the invasion of Iraq, there is no way I would find it acceptable to even use a tragedy like 9/11 as a false pretext for their pre-planned agenda, much less so if I thought that they somehow allowed it to happen.

Is that what you were getting at?
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 01:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


redfella wrote:
Would it not be a good thing to win the battle of hearts and minds in this region, so that they will somewhat favor America and what it stands for? ...As opposed to continuing to allow hate for the West to be compounded exponentially day in and day out by the repressive regimes that foster these feelings towards their young?


And I wanted to say something about this part too. Your statement here assumes that the reason we are hated is because of the way the people are raised to think of us - and not because of foreign policy mistakes we might have made in the region, and refused to admit.
That is a big assumption.
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 02:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


redfella wrote:

I'm a bit of an idealist... But, could it really be that shocking if Bush was really trying to change the world, for the good?


Hey buddy...because you're an idealist you automatically believe there is an "evil" in the world that must be vanquished by the US to "change the world for the good". And that's the problem.

Right at the core...that is the problem and the cause of these misguided wars.

You really have bought into the neocon crap, haven't you?
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 02:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks again R00k for proving that it is possible to have a decent and considerate debate (by people with large degrees of opposing opinion) on q3w general discussion. This is the reason I keep coming back... ;)

Anyways, you have made some great points here. And believe it or not, I agree with most of them. If 9/11 was, as in our example, the byproduct of our current administration's strategy to change the Middle East, I don't think that it is acceptable to hide it behind the public's knowledge and try to wing in on their own... regardless of their intentions (and how wholesome they may be).

As for the way people think of us over there... I am sure that it is a variety of things that influence their thoughts. Upbringing, culture, religon, and even U.S. foreign policy all have some effect, I'd suppose.



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 02:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


GONNAFISTYA wrote:
You really have bought into the neocon crap, haven't you?


Nah, not really. I'm just an idealist. Stop trying to pin me into a corner.



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redfella wrote:
GONNAFISTYA wrote:
You really have bought into the neocon crap, haven't you?


Nah, not really. I'm just an idealist. Stop trying to pin me into a corner.


Look up what a definition of a neocon is.
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redfella needs to be banned...



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 02:29 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


strausscons can suck my balls...



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GONNAFISTYA wrote:
Look up what a definition of a neocon is.


I'd rather not. Bye.



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redfella wrote:
GONNAFISTYA wrote:
Look up what a definition of a neocon is.


I'd rather not. Bye.


Of course not. Pussy.

[edit] You don't even have the balls to explain what you mean by "idealist". Why do you even bother trying to discuss something when you can't even present your arguement's basis?
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prolly cuz he is completely ignorant...to basically everything...



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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 02:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Much like yourself
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GONNAFISTYA wrote:
You don't even have the balls to explain what you mean by "idealist". Why do you even bother trying to discuss something when you can't even present your arguement's basis?


If I explain to you what I mean by idealist, you'll just call me a pussy anyways, or something else along those lines. You got to give respect in order to gain it, and in this case I don't respect anyone who calls me a pussy for absolutely no reason. Bye.

Whats up R00k?



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losCHUNK
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 06:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


twin towers, plane crash, big hole, a bit of screaming, bit of fire, big bang, end of story
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PostPosted: 02-15-2005 07:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


not quite, you forgot the "massive nerds with tin foil wallpaper and roofing on their double-wides and their massive conspiracy theories" stage
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