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Topic Starter Topic: Universe shaped like dodecahedron? Kracus read this.
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 12:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


http://members.aol.com/newssciencepage/ ... vshape.htm

For centuries, scientists, philosophers and ordinary people have wondered whether the universe is infinite, and what its shape might be. In two recent studies, scientists say signals from the explosion that gave rise to the universe may be leading them to answers to both questions.

As for whether the universe is infinite, these signals point to “no,” the researchers say.

As for its shape, if ever a shape could be at once hauntingly beautiful, yet impossible to draw or visualize exactly, this one might be it. But roughly, it would resemble a dodecahedron, a 12-sided box similar to some dice used in the popular role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons.

The dodecahedral universe claims are based on observations of the furthest reaches of our universe. Since light takes time to travel, the further we peer out into space with telescopes, the further back in time we see. If we look far enough, we can see the aftermath of the “Big Bang,” a tremendous explosion that astronomers believe created our universe.

The radiation from this explosion tells us some things about the early universe. In particular, it reveals the approximate density of different areas of the universe during that early time. Slight variations in the density of different parts of the early universe result in corresponding variations in the radiation’s temperature.

These variations follow patterns in space that, mathematically, are identical to the vibration patterns of a musical instrument as it’s being played.

Such vibrations that they normally come at many size scales, depending on the size of the instrument. When a bell rings, there are large ripples that span its whole surface, and tiny ones, but none bigger than the bell itself. The size of the largest ripples would reveal the size of the bell. The universe is thought to work similarly: the size of the biggest ripples could give astronomers some idea of the size of the universe.

In the case of the universe, ripples could conceivably be found in a very wide range of sizes. But they’re not found in all these sizes; ripples larger than a certain size aren’t seen. The most natural explanation of this seems to be that space is finite, say Jean-Pierre Luminet of the Paris Observatory, France, and colleagues. This is because only a universe of limited size could easily explain why the ripples are also limited in size. “Just as the vibrations of a bell cannot be larger than the bell itself, the density fluctuations in space cannot be larger than space itself,” he wrote in the research journal Nature last fall.

This leftover light from the Big Bang – called the cosmic microwave background – may also reveal the shape of the universe, Luminet and colleagues argue. They claim that the details of the ripples point to a universe with a dodecahedral form described by the 19th- and early 20th- century French mathematician Henri Poincaré.

A peculiar aspect of this structure is that if we look out to one side of the dodecahedron, we see not a boundary, but our own universe all over again, as seen from the other side. It’s like a hall of mirrors, except that instead of seeing your face, you see the back of your head. In addition, you would see the images partially rotated.

In the September 2004 issue of the research journal Astronomy & Astrophysics, a group of researchers write that they has found “hints” of the structure Luminet described. If space is structured this way, researchers believe that the cosmic microwave background should exhibit a specific pattern called “matched circles.” This means that as we peer into space, certain areas of the radiation should look the same as other areas.

In the paper, Boudewijn F. Roukema of Copernicus University, Torun, Poland, and colleagues wrote that the patterns they found “correlate unusually well” with the matched-circles pattern required by Luminet’s theory. However, at present it’s hard to prove that this is not a coincidence, they wrote.

Wright is skeptical. The researchers “presented no evidence that this result was statistically significant,” he points out on his website. Luminet agrees: “Their result has to be confirmed by further statistical analysis,” he writes in an email. “The question remains open.”

If the findings turn out to be correct, professors may be kept busy for years explaining the shape of the universe to students. This is because the dodecahedron picture is an oversimplification. The actual theory has several strange twists.

In some video games, you can fly your spaceship off the edge of the screen and it comes back in from the opposite edge. A creature dwelling in the world of the video game would have the illusion of living in an infinite space, at least until it started moving around and realizing that things were repeating themselves everywhere.

In the same way, we may have the illusion of living in a much bigger universe than the real one, Luminet argues. This is because as we look far enough out with our telescopes, we begin to see the same objects repeatedly. However, we would see them partially rotated each time.

The reason for this rotation is that it allows our dodecahedral universe to fit into a bizarre mathematical creation called a hypersphere – a concept that requires some explanation.

Most people would consider a circle two-dimensional, and a ball three-dimensional. In fact, a ball is sort of a three-dimensional version of a circle. In the same way, mathematicians have invented “balls” that exist in four or more dimensions. These objects are impossible to picture, but they are perfectly real in a mathematical sense; in other words, one can do calculations with them, just as with a circle and a ball.

Now, the surface of a normal ball, or sphere, is two-dimensional. Thus it makes sense that the “surface” of a four-dimensional ball would be three-dimensional. This surface of a four-dimensional ball is just as impossible to visualize as the four-dimensional ball itself, but nonetheless, mathematicians have given a name to this type of surface: a hypersphere.

“A hypersphere is the 3-dimensional surface of a 4-dimensional ball,” wrote Luminet. Nineteenth-century mathematicians first devised the hypersphere as a possible shape of the universe. This served as a way to explain how space might be finite, yet have no boundary – just as the surface of a sphere has no boundary, yet doesn’t go on forever.

Understanding the hypersphere is first step toward understanding what, according to some researchers, is the shape of the universe. There is also another step or two.

Consider a soccer ball (or as non-Americans call it, a football). Its surface is covered with five-sided shapes, colored black and white. These shapes are basically pentagons, but not quite normal pentagons. Their edges are slightly bent, and their corner angles slightly different, compared to regular pentagons. These alterations allow these “modified pentagons” to fit snugly together on the surface of a ball. Otherwise, it couldn’t be a ball, but a shape like that of 12-sided die.

Now, return to the concept of a hypersphere. Remember, a hypersphere is the three-dimensional “surface” of a four-dimensional ball. If pentagons – which are basically two-dimensional – tile a three-dimensional soccer ball, it makes sense that some sort of three-dimensional objects can be said to tile the surface of a four-dimensional ball. It also makes sense that these would be three-dimensional versions of the “modified pentagons” described above.

These bizarre new objects are modified dodecahedrons: in other words, that 12-sided die shape again, but with slightly “bent edges.” It takes 120 of them to fill a hypersphere, the same way it takes 12 modified pentagons to cover a soccer ball. In the case of the universe, however, 119 of these dodecahedrons would be illusory, because they are all repeating images of a single one. Nonetheless, the hypersphere containing them is real – real enough to serve as a framework that determines the details of the shape and angles of the dodecahedron.

One outcome of the hypersphere framework is that objects leaving one face of the dodecahedron come back in the opposite face, but rotated partially. To be exact, the amount of the rotation is 36 degrees, which also happens to be the angle by which your direction would change if you turned a corner while walking along the edge of a pentagon.

Luminet admits that the accuracy of this whole theory remains to be confirmed. The claim that the universe is finite remains unproven, he says; its confirmation will require a more precise measurement of the density of the universe today. If the density is above a critical level, it will prove the universe is finite, he says. A better measurement of the density could come from the Planck Surveyor, a European spacecraft planned for launch in 2007 to study the birth of the universe.

“Since antiquity humans have wondered whether our universe is finite or infinite,” Luminet writes. “Now, after more than two millennia of speculation, observational data might finally settle this ancient question once and for all.”
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 12:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


nice copy paste


The Universe is big. Untill we have spaceships, stop wasting money on telescopes and spend it on spaceships!



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blood.angel
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 12:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


A hypersphere is not a 3d representation of a 4d object, it is a 4d object.
Its 3d representation is its 'shadow', which looks nothing like it, like a shadow of a cube looks nothing llike the real thing.
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Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:07 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That's pretty cool shit, I had never thought of that aspect in the universe and although it seems rather strange I could envision something like this. I never really pondered the idea of "exiting" the universe only to reapear on the other side of the same rotated universe but it's a pretty neat concept.

The 4 dimension thing though I'm still skeptical on because of problems with things like rotation and orbits.... It'd be impossible for anything to exist, well at least in way's a 3 dimensional being can comprehend.
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Memphis wrote:
boo wrote:
nice copy paste




What would the difference be whether he copied and pasted it, or retyped it out himself? Except saving himself time and effort.

Nice moan about nothing


Yeah, but he put the link to the article there to so people could have just gone to that page and read it rather than copying it and pasting it here. Thats all...



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boo
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


But if you exit from one side and come back in through the rear, or opposite side, how the hell did you get from one side to the other?



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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Is this about me calling you on dissing my man pauly?
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boo
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eh? No. I wasnt dissing pauly, I was dissing Geoff. Jeesus H Christ on a motorbike...



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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


because pauly is a saint
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losCHUNK
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


boo wrote:
Eh? No. I wasnt dissing pauly, I was dissing Geoff. Jeesus H Christ on a motorbike...


now i understands

boo wrote:
But if you exit from one side and come back in through the rear, or opposite side, how the hell did you get from one side to the other?


lawl
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Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


boo wrote:
But if you exit from one side and come back in through the rear, or opposite side, how the hell did you get from one side to the other?


The fabric of the universe is suspected to be very much like an illusion. Meaning we could theoreticaly be in two places at once, so that would be the beginning of an explanation for this.
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Ryoki
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I'd just like to say 'indeed' at this point.



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Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Do you think the universe you see outside our universe when you are looking at the edge of our universe to be an alternate universe? It could be like a fractal pattern.
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losCHUNK
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:16 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


fucking hell you guys give me some headaches
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Or perhaps our universe has that shape because of the "pressure" from other universes....sorta like a honeycomb. Maybe if you leave our universe and look back you are actually in another universe that is rotated 36 degrees...it's exactly like our universe...only rotated.

This is good weed.
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:19 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


boo wrote:
Eh? No. I wasnt dissing pauly, I was dissing Geoff. Jeesus H Christ on a motorbike...


STOP DISSING PAULY YOU FLAMING QUEERBAIT OR I'LL HAVE YOU BANNED!!
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Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:22 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Image

Image

Image
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:23 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The universe is jewish?
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losCHUNK
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


the jewish religion is correct :paranoid:
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


because air is free
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saturn
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


GONNAFISTYA wrote:
Or perhaps our universe has that shape because of the "pressure" from other universes....sorta like a honeycomb. Maybe if you leave our universe and look back you are actually in another universe that is rotated 36 degrees...it's exactly like our universe...only rotated.

This is good weed.


That's what the theory says, if you travel through the finite universe you will eventually get back at the same point, but slightly rotated or whatever, so you will have the idea of an infinite universe.

It's cool if you can calculate with 4d balls or docahedrons on paper, but putting the picture together in our human minds is purdy damn hard.

Nice read Hmmomo-Puffnstuff
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saturn
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:33 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.
if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


what is 4D though?



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saturn
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


an extra dimension, doh!
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


yeah, but how? we have 3 dimensions, X Y and Z ... how can we have 4 ?



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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:44 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


boo wrote:
yeah, but how? we have 3 dimensions, X Y and Z ... how can we have 4 ?


Try this way:

Extend a line (a 1D object representing length) into another dimension and you get a square (2D object representing length and width).

Extend the square into another dimension into a cube (3D object) and you give it depth.

Extend the cube into another dimension (4D object) and you get a headache wondering what you've added....more depth?
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:45 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.
if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?



Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...
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saturn
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


We're in a 3d visualized world (or that's how we humans perceive it). Some say time is the 4th dimension, it's very subjective though. You can measure time but it's only heading one way.

Actually, you can add any parameter you want and say it's a new dimension.
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


so if we enter another dimension, were going to be streched 4 ways?

Dont think I like the sound that.



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mjrpes
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ryoki wrote:
I'd just like to say 'indeed' at this point.


I concur.
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saturn
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:49 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.
if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?



Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...



First of all, gravity causing expansion is weird, it would rather cause a collapse. Secondly, why would it have to move at light speed, it could be moving towards lightspeed, but there's the initial inertia and acceleration. Traveling at lightspeed would mean infinite mass (if you're still Einsteinian).
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saturn
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


GONNAFISTYA wrote:
boo wrote:
yeah, but how? we have 3 dimensions, X Y and Z ... how can we have 4 ?


Try this way:

Extend a line (a 1D object representing length) into another dimension and you get a square (2D object representing length and width).

Extend the square into another dimension into a cube (3D object) and you give it depth.

Extend the cube into another dimension (4D object) and you get a headache wondering what you've added....more depth?


the 4th dimension is beyond the event horizon of your oesophagus :p
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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Insideout boy!



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PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


boo wrote:
so if we enter another dimension, were going to be streched 4 ways?

Dont think I like the sound that.


Doesn't time expand your beerbelly?
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