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Topic Starter Topic: The Hunt for Red October...

Etile
Etile
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 09:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


... is happening right now

situation is "fucked up", says top swedish buckeroo :)




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Aneurysm
Aneurysm
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 10:54 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


so some civilians spotted what they think was a sub, but the military cant find it and have no idea where to look. Meanwhile the sub probably finished whatever it was doing and is long gone by now.




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Etile
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 11:22 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Memphis wrote:
register to continue.


nope




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Risen From The Ashes
Risen From The Ashes
Joined: 03 Aug 2000
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 11:50 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If you refresh the page it seems to let you view it again for a while.

How hard can it be to find a sub?




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Just another Earthling
Just another Earthling
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 12:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


How hard can it be to find a missing plane?



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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 12:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Did they try behind the fridge ?



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Just another Earthling
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 12:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Reminds me of an old elephant joke.

"How can you tell if an elephant has been in your fridge?"

Look for footprints in the butter :olo:


OT: It is probably a whale :smirk:



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Risen From The Ashes
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 01:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Whiskey 7 wrote:
How hard can it be to find a missing plane?


Presumably the sub will be moving, or emitting some form of noise into the sea :p.




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visual prowess
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PostPosted: 10-22-2014 01:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Memphis wrote:
register to continue. pass go and fuck yourself in jail.

seremtan wrote:
Memphis wrote:
register to continue.


nope


Image



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 12:35 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


PhoeniX wrote:
How hard can it be to find a sub?


Aren't those things supposed to be stealthy?




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 12:39 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Russians pointed their fingers at the Dutch at first by the way. First they imprison innocent Dutch people, then they beat up a Dutch ambassador, then they help Pro-Russian activists shoot down a plane with mainly Dutch people on board and now they blame us for invading Swedish waters. Stoopid Russians.




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Legend
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 12:39 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Good timing for the yanks to bully the Swedes into joining the North Atlantic Terrorist Organization.




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Legend
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 12:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
Russians pointed their fingers at the Dutch at first by the way. First they imprison innocent Dutch people, then they beat up a Dutch ambassador, then they help Pro-Russian activists shoot down a plane with mainly Dutch people on board and now they blame us for invading Swedish waters. Stoopid Russians.


Funny how literally a minute after the first report of the plane going down, the White House already has a press release ready to go blaming Russia. Seems like morons still ignore the part where it would make zero strategic or political sense for Russia to down a civilian plane for no reason whereas the Ukrainians would have everything to gain from doing it and getting the world to join in on the blame game.

On the other hand, yanks have had a lot of practice taking down civilian planes in other countries so maybe they know what signs to look for.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 12:51 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Captain Mazda wrote:
Funny how literally a minute after the first report of the plane going down, the White House already has a press release ready to go blaming Russia. Seems like morons still ignore the part where it would make zero strategic or political sense for Russia to down a civilian plane for no reason whereas the Ukrainians would have everything to gain from doing it and getting the world to join in on the blame game.


Your tin foil hat still sitting straight?




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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 01:13 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Captain Mazda wrote:
Eraser wrote:
Russians pointed their fingers at the Dutch at first by the way. First they imprison innocent Dutch people, then they beat up a Dutch ambassador, then they help Pro-Russian activists shoot down a plane with mainly Dutch people on board and now they blame us for invading Swedish waters. Stoopid Russians.


Funny how literally a minute after the first report of the plane going down, the White House already has a press release ready to go blaming Russia. Seems like morons still ignore the part where it would make zero strategic or political sense for Russia to down a civilian plane for no reason whereas the Ukrainians would have everything to gain from doing it and getting the world to join in on the blame game.

On the other hand, yanks have had a lot of practice taking down civilian planes in other countries so maybe they know what signs to look for.


There's a number of reasons why Russia is avoiding blame, like giving high grade weapons to monkeys. The initial reports weren't entirely sure either, only that BUKs were observed in the area of the downing, with other reports stating that other planes were downed in the surrounding regions days before.

Russia also has previous for downing civilian airliners. Atleast 1 of them being downed after visual confirmation. Ukraine has n all, Siberia airlines one i believe. This won't be the 1st time Russia has tried shifting blame either, they even tried that's hit with the Kursk disaster.

Run forest run



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Legend
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 02:13 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
Captain Mazda wrote:
Funny how literally a minute after the first report of the plane going down, the White House already has a press release ready to go blaming Russia. Seems like morons still ignore the part where it would make zero strategic or political sense for Russia to down a civilian plane for no reason whereas the Ukrainians would have everything to gain from doing it and getting the world to join in on the blame game.


Your tin foil hat still sitting straight?


About as straight as the huge turd Tony Blair took on your head.

losCHUNK wrote:
There's a number of reasons why Russia is avoiding blame, like giving high grade weapons to monkeys. The initial reports weren't entirely sure either, only that BUKs were observed in the area of the downing, with other reports stating that other planes were downed in the surrounding regions days before.

Russia also has previous for downing civilian airliners. Atleast 1 of them being downed after visual confirmation. Ukraine has n all, Siberia airlines one i believe. This won't be the 1st time Russia has tried shifting blame either, they even tried that's hit with the Kursk disaster.

Run forest run


Quote:
A Thursday article in the New Straits Times, Malaysia’s flagship English-language newspaper, charged the US- and European-backed Ukrainian regime in Kiev with shooting down Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17 in east Ukraine last month. Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state.

The US and European media have buried this remarkable report, which refutes the wave of allegations planted by the CIA in international media claiming that Russian president Vladimir Putin was responsible for the destruction of MH17, without presenting any evidence to back up this charge.

Another source the paper cited was an article, “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts,” by former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry, who now writes for the ConsortiumNews.com web site. Given the lack of any evidence supporting US charges that pro-Russian forces shot MH17 down with a Buk anti-aircraft missile, Parry said, “some US intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault, and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings.”

Parry indicated that sections of the US intelligence apparatus have concluded that US secretary of state John Kerry’s claims that pro-Russian forces shot down the plane are lies.

“Only three days after the crash, Secretary of State Kerry did the rounds of the Sunday talk shows making what he deemed an ‘extraordinary circumstantial’ case supposedly proving that the rebels carried out the shoot-down with missiles provided by Russia. He acknowledged that the US government was ‘not drawing the final conclusion here, but there is a lot that points at the need for Russia to be responsible,’ ” Parry wrote. “By then, I was already being told that the US intelligence community lacked any satellite imagery supporting Kerry’s allegations, and that the only Buk missile system in that part of Ukraine appeared to be under the control of the Ukrainian military.”


http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08 ... a-a09.html

You have no problems accepting whatever the British and US governments tell you. They've never been caught lying, assassinating democratically-elected foreign leaders, invading sovereign nations under false pretenses, or waging proxy wars for themselves and their Saudi masters.

Go buy another Etihad kit, arab :olo:




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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 02:53 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


A quick google search tells me that's in main stream media, guardian atleast. I got as far as reading about the su-25 shooting the plane down which has neither the ceiling, speed or capability of bringing down mh17. if it wasnt quick then this would be seen on flight data recorders that the Russians had access too n all, according to that article multiple shots and cannon fire brought the plane down. This story comes from the Russians diverting blame and one investigator on a large team basing his opinion on shrapnel damage.

Like i said its not the 1st time Russians have tried shifting blame, Korean airlines flight was apparently a spy plane and the Kursk was hit by an American torpedo from whatever yank sub was in the region at the time.



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Karot!
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 03:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


*sigh*

While i agree that the blame on Russia was instantanious and therefore suspicious, i think blaming the Ukrainians for some high powered false flag black op is even more far fetched. Jesus, think of the risks, if the world would have found out people would have been like 'well, fuck those guys then' and they were effectively losing the war at that point. If it were immediately clear the Ukranians did it on purpose the Russians could have rolled columns of tanks into the Ukraine for a permanent occupation and noone would have given a singular shit about it.

Look, it just doesn't make political sense for any of the fighting parties to down a loaded passenger jet on purpose, this simply has accident written all over it. Keeping an open mind is a good thing, but going into conspiracy theories that defy common sense is nonsensical and unproductive.

PS one big technical issue i personally see with the Ukrainian fighter jet theory is the damage shown to the plane on all the pictures i saw - it looks like someone fired a giant shotgun at it. I'm no expert by any means, but i'd wager cannonfire from a jet doesn't leave a shitload of little holes - but these big anti aircraft missiles do. No telling who fired it though & i'd be surprised if we ever find out. Warzones are chaotic that way.



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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 01:42 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


SU25 uses a 30mm gun apparently which leave bullet holes similiar to this (shot from a F16 20mm cannon) -





Comprared to -



Which looks like this that was hit by a BUK



The su25 is a ground attack plane n all, think of an A10 tank buster, it can be equipped with air to air missiles for defensive purposes but the missiles they attach have struck civilian airliners in the past and because they are so shite none were downed.

Which is besides the point anyway, MH17 was flying at 30k+ and the su25 can only manage around 20k > unloaded / un armed <, along with the max speed being approximate to MH17s cruising speed whilst also being unloaded / un armed (500knts VS 490 knts) :dork:

Also - The Russian radar data that they use to accuse the Ukranians of having an su25 in the area at the time of the downing showed that the SU25 only appeared AFTER MH17 was struck, which is more likely to be parts of the plane breaking up. The footage should have shown air speed from the radar data n all, which the 'su25' didn't show - meaning it wasn't moving laterally. The transponder is used to track altitude so the abscence of that isn't unusual but the data should still have shown flight speed as this is monitored by RADAR, as it did for MH17 even after transponder loss - which is when the RADAR data lost altitude readings for MH17. This information is released by the Russians and can't be interperated in any other way.

The su27 is the fighter plane, which the Ukranian military has and would have used. The report still isn't finalised either and all that's being said is that it was likely the Russians due to the plane being shot down over a rebel controlled sector, the intercepted transmissions between the rebels, social media from the Russian general in that area at the time of the downing, eye witness reports, photographic evidence of the BUKs, RADAR data etc. The investigation is also following procedure by not releasing much information, what's currently in the public domain is through media reporting. Russia on the other hand are very vocal about the entire situation.



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Welfare Recipient
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 02:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...




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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 02:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


So many dishes, so little time...



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Legend
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 02:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ryoki wrote:
Jesus, think of the risks, if the world would have found out people would have been like 'well, fuck those guys then' and they were effectively losing the war at that point. If it were immediately clear the Ukranians did it on purpose the Russians could have rolled columns of tanks into the Ukraine for a permanent occupation and noone would have given a singular shit about it.


And how exactly do you think Ukraine shooting down a Malaysian plane in Ukraine give the Russians the right to "roll columns of tanks into Ukraine for a permanent occupation" without any resistance from the EU or NATO? The plane was filled with Dutch citizens, not Russians. Are you being naive or daft?




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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 02:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


He's saying Ukraine would have lost the support of the EU, Dutch citizens being part of the EU, which I think you realise cos you pointed out that they weren't Russian. Silly sod.

Initial reports from Russia (because it was only the yanks that were quick on the trigger :dork: ) were that Ukraine thought Putin was on board so shot it down. A good prelude to war.



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Legend
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 03:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The thought of the EU being on Russia's side is just laughable, even for a ridiculous fantasy war scenario. Russia also doesn't need an excuse to roll into Ukraine, considering how much the EU is suffering financially from the very same sanctions they were ordered to place on the Kremlin. They own the fucking continent.




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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 03:23 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Who said they would be on Russias side ?, and Russia is hardly having an easy ride, their largest oil producer is asking for billions in bail out due to european markets closing their doors to them. It's not a huge impact on either market on the whole though.

Atleast with Crimea the Russians would have had a popular vote, opressing the entire region would surely lose them any support when concerning international politics (not just European). If Ukraine had been seen downing MH17 intentionally, then potentially the rest of the world would see that government as an equally oppresive regime and offer little to no support for their government nor would the EU want to be seen supporting it. It would be a PR disaster.



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Legend
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 03:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The same PR disaster that happened when the US shot down an Iranian passenger plane operating on a civilian frequency or when the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty?

:smirk:




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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 03:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Military didn't operate on civilian frequencies during the Iranian plane shoot down, with liberty being a military vessel on the outskirts of a warzone - America knows all about friendly fire. Both of which were acknowledged as mistakes shortly afterwards. What you're suggesting is a cover up with no one claiming responsibility, which by using your logic could have been resolved with a simple apology, if it was seen that Ukraine > Intentionally < shot down MH17 (IE with su-27s / MIG 29s sighting visual confirmation with supporting radar evidence - which would be the case in any air to air shoot down and obvious to the world) then the backlash would be pretty obscene.

As I also said previously, Russia has made similiar mistakes and shirked respsonsibility, but they get a free ride from you. Where as Ukraine has previously shot down a civilian plane and claimed full responsibility, along with a few other nations.

This is also ommitting the faesability of the shoot down from an SU25 as claimed by the Russians, which as I have mentioned is worse than flimsy.



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Legend
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 04:48 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


losCHUNK wrote:
Military didn't operate on civilian frequencies during the Iranian plane shoot down, with liberty being a military vessel on the outskirts of a warzone. Both of which were acknowledged as mistakes shortly afterwards.


The passenger jet was on a civilian frequency and was identified as such by the most sophisticated radar and equipment of the USS Vincennes before it was shot down in the Persian Gulf, of all places. The US didn't publicly apologize and called it an "accident". What would you have called it if an Iranian warship was bombing the coast of New York and decided to take down an American Airlines flight at the same time?

The Israeli incident was an act of war as well and if the US government had any backbone, they could've cut off their support right then and there and left the red sea pedestrians all alone in their conquest.

There was no "PR incident" because "the good guys"—the PR directors themselves—were the perpetrators in both those cases.

losCHUNK wrote:
What you're suggesting is a cover up with no one claiming responsibility, which by using your logic could have been resolved with a simple apology, if it was seen that Ukraine > Intentionally < shot down MH17 (IE with su-27s / MIG 29s sighting visual confirmation with supporting radar evidence - which would be the case in any air to air shoot down) then the backlash would be pretty obscene.


If Ukraine apologized, they wouldn't be able to play the 'evil Commies shoot down passenger planes' card and gain the support of the international community. There is no concrete evidence to support the finger-pointing rhetoric that the US and Britain were so quick to spew out.

Quote:
Kiev-based air traffic controllers not only led MH17 right over its alleged ‘target zone’ in Eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk region, but also helped make it visible.

Although weather data online is all but unavailable for the area of Donetsk, Ukraine for July 17th, conditions are evident by numerous videos depicting the crash and crash site in the aftermath – it was cloudy and overcast, with more visibility above the cloud canopy. This factor is important because at its cruising altitude of approximately 33,000 feet (10,000 meters), the airliner would not be visible from the ground in the rebel-held area where Washington is insisting a SAM missile was launched. Why Kiev air traffic controllers order MH17 to suddenly drop its altitude, from 35,000 feet to around 33,000 feet, just before the plane’s demise is unknown for sure, but it would have been near impossible for the alleged rebel gunman occupying this relatively small rebel-held patch of land to make a visual sighting of MH17 and acquire the target during the 1-2 minute window they would have had (assuming they were even in possession of the BUK missile system).


http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/m ... ag-attack/




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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 06:07 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Captain Mazda wrote:

The passenger jet was on a civilian frequency and was identified as such by the most sophisticated radar and equipment of the USS Vincennes before it was shot down in the Persian Gulf, of all places. The US didn't publicly apologize and called it an "accident". What would you have called it if an Iranian warship was bombing the coast of New York and decided to take down an American Airlines flight at the same time?


Eurgh - Iran Air flight was mis identified by whatever operator on the Vincennes. It's as simple as that, there was an f14 on the tarmac taking off after the Iran Air flight and that was hooked by the radar operator mistankenly. After looking at civilian flight plans that were incorrect (different time zones) and seeing that there were no take offs they determined it to be a threat. They attempted contact on military frequencies and a few commerical emergency frequencies but got no response, even though the Iran Air flight would have heard these calls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air ... Flight_007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Ai ... light_1812
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_3

There is more but are those acts of war also ?

Captain Mazda wrote:
The Israeli incident was an act of war as well and if the US government had any backbone, they could've cut off their support right then and there and left the red sea pedestrians all alone in their conquest.

There was no "PR incident" because "the good guys"—the PR directors themselves—were the perpetrators in both those cases.


Behave, 2 ships flying Israeli flags shooting at an ally that shouldn't have been there before realising it was a mistake, cos friendly fire has never happened before... The information surrounding this is interesting, but there was no reason for Israel to attack the USA whilst flying Israeli flags at full mast, which is why Liberety refused to return fire and when they did (mistankenly for a brief period) the Israelis opened up.

It's also obvious as to why the USA kept close to Israel and vice versa.

Captain Mazda wrote:
If Ukraine apologized, they wouldn't be able to play the 'evil Commies shoot down passenger planes' card and gain the support of the international community. There is no concrete evidence to support the finger-pointing rhetoric that the US and Britain were so quick to spew out.


They already had the support of the international community, they had nothing to gain and everything to lose. No one is saying there is conclusive evidence pointing at Russia (yet), just circumstantial evidence that I have already mentioned (social media, eye witness, photgraphic, regional, weaponry used, eye witnesses etc etc). Politicians are probaly privvy to this info but just because the report hasn't been released yet due to policy dictating no information to be released before its submission doesn't mean there is no evidence n all despite whatever shit Russia is spewing. No evidence is suggesting it could be anything other than a BUK missile launched from rebel territory.

And like I also said, Russia were flapping their gums straight after the incident that it was an assasination attempt on Putin - just because they say so, but oh Britain and the US for using circumstantial evidence *shakes fist*

Quote:
Kiev-based air traffic controllers not only led MH17 right over its alleged ‘target zone’ in Eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk region, but also helped make it visible.

Although weather data online is all but unavailable for the area of Donetsk, Ukraine for July 17th, conditions are evident by numerous videos depicting the crash and crash site in the aftermath – it was cloudy and overcast, with more visibility above the cloud canopy. This factor is important because at its cruising altitude of approximately 33,000 feet (10,000 meters), the airliner would not be visible from the ground in the rebel-held area where Washington is insisting a SAM missile was launched. Why Kiev air traffic controllers order MH17 to suddenly drop its altitude, from 35,000 feet to around 33,000 feet, just before the plane’s demise is unknown for sure, but it would have been near impossible for the alleged rebel gunman occupying this relatively small rebel-held patch of land to make a visual sighting of MH17 and acquire the target during the 1-2 minute window they would have had (assuming they were even in possession of the BUK missile system).


http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/m ... ag-attack/[/quote]

Again that information would be found in the report, on the flight data recorders atleast in reguards to course alteration, could be other traffic, weather or any other reason. The missile battery would not require visual sighting n all with a targetting system built in, seeing as it capable of tracking planes up to 70000 ft with missiles reaching 45k, 2000 ft difference at that height is pretty much irrelevant.

There was also 2 other civilian planes in close proximity, also shown on the Russian radar footage and the plane was within a commercial air zone.



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Just another Earthling
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PostPosted: 10-23-2014 07:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hmm, that reminds me, I bought the Blu Ray of The Hunt for Red October so I simply have to watch it again & soon. A tremendous movie.

That opening sequence brings shivers to my spine. Sean Connery :up:


Awesome.



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Karot!
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PostPosted: 10-24-2014 01:59 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


What Chunk said :up:

Captain Mazda wrote:
There is no concrete evidence to support the finger-pointing rhetoric that the US and Britain were so quick to spew out.


See, i agree wholeheartedly with that. Would you also agree that alternative narratives are equally devoid of any evidence at this moment in time and appear to make even less logical sense? Let's just await the investigation shall we? In the meantime let us take a leaf from the book of interdetective Drum, who i think once said sagely advised that when faced with competing explanations, you "balance probabilities and choose the most likely."

Or something like that anyway - i'm sure i'm paraphrasing, that guy was a thinker.



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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 10-24-2014 02:32 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


'Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.' ?




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Karot!
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PostPosted: 10-24-2014 02:44 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That's it!



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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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Joined: 24 Nov 2000
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PostPosted: 10-24-2014 02:53 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Arthur Conan Doyle.
I think posts as DRuM on these forums :owned:




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Etile
Etile
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 34898
PostPosted: 10-24-2014 03:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


yep. this picture is 100% mazda-level proof of that claim

Image




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