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Topic Starter Topic: Re: President Trump

Pestilence
Pestilence
Joined: 25 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 06-18-2018 07:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Detention camps no, take kids away, yes. look up the Flores Consent Decree.




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Arrr?
Arrr?
Joined: 09 Feb 2001
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PostPosted: 06-18-2018 07:31 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I just Google it. Did you?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/16/us/p ... olicy.html
Quote:
“I hate the children being taken away,” Mr. Drumpf told reporters on Friday in front of the White House during a 45-minute impromptu question-and-answer session on a wide range of topics. “The Democrats have to change their law — that’s their law.”

In fact, there is no law that requires families to be separated at the border. There is a law against “improper entry” at the border, as well as a consent decree known as the Flores settlement that limits to 20 days the amount of time that migrant children may be held in immigration detention, which a federal judge ruled in 2016 also applies to families. A 2008 anti-trafficking statute — signed into law by a Republican president, George W. Bush — also requires that certain unaccompanied alien minors be transferred out of immigration detention in 72 hours. None of those laws or precedents mean that children must be taken away from their parents.

It is the Drumpf administration’s decision this year to prosecute all unlawful immigrants as criminals that has forced the breakup of families; the children are removed when the parents are taken into federal custody. While previous administrations have made exceptions to such prosecutions for adults traveling with their minor children, the Drumpf administration has said it will not do so.




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Pestilence
Pestilence
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PostPosted: 06-18-2018 07:32 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Granted it says they shouldn't be detained longer than 20 days and lists a series of acceptable guardians, which in most cases will all be detained themselves longer than 20 days. Then goes on to government agencies willing to take custody and even down to putting them in juvenile detention centers, although separated from regular inmates. Which do you think has been the most likely outcome over the last 20 years?




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Pestilence
Pestilence
Joined: 25 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 06-18-2018 07:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Transient wrote:
I just Google it. Did you?



The actual document, yes. And requires? No, but more likely? It's the US government, what do you think?




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Arrr?
Arrr?
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PostPosted: 06-18-2018 07:36 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Our immigration system has been fucked up for as long as I've been alive, but never before has a president torn disenfranchised families apart and used them as a bargaining chip to get laws passed. There's a bit of a difference.




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
Joined: 16 Apr 2000
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 05:27 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I'm not sure any president has personally torn children away from illegal immigrant parents. But aren't all criminal parents separated from their children when they're arrested?




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Canadian Shaft
Canadian Shaft
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 06:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Arriving at a border as a refugee is not a criminal act.




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Canadian Shaft
Canadian Shaft
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 06:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


http://time.com/5315110/family-separati ... publicans/

But Republicans in the poll backed the policy by 55%, the only party, gender, education, age or racial group to support it.




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:12 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
Arriving at a border as a refugee is not a criminal act.


You mean our boarder patrol is snatching Mexican families from the Mexico side of the boarder and separating them?

That doesn't sound right...




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Canadian Shaft
Canadian Shaft
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:19 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


reading comprehension gwamps. you need some...




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Canadian Shaft
Canadian Shaft
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote





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Canadian Shaft
Canadian Shaft
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:27 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


and crossing a border 'illegally' as an asylum seeker is a misdemeanor.




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Refugee arriving at a boarder says that a person has simply "arrived" and not yet entered the US. But the last time I checked, entering any country illegally, is, well, illegal.

Since you are against innocent children being separated from their parents when they illegally enter the US. What would you do? Do we put the entire family in a cell together, where the child could get harmed by other detainees? Would you put the entire family up at a local Comfort Inn, where they could come and go as they please? Or do we just turn them around at the boarder and send them back into the desert? Certainly you have to consider the importance of legal immigration and know that almost any living situation provided here in the states is 10 time better.

Not agreeing with something really doesn't fix it.




Last edited by YourGrandpa on 06-19-2018 09:36 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Double post




Last edited by YourGrandpa on 06-19-2018 07:48 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Joined: 24 Nov 2000
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:48 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quote:
But the last time I checked, entering any country illegally, is, well, illegal


Not every violation of the law counts as a crime.
Just fyi




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 09:27 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Can you please explain exactly how we determine when illegal is illegal and when illegal is not illegal? Because I'm pretty sure someone will be screaming discrimination if the law isn't applied equally. No?




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Digital Nausea
Digital Nausea
Joined: 10 Feb 2001
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 09:56 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


At this point aren’t we all just impatiently waiting for Mueller to drop the hammer? It’s the only way out of this mess. That or the 2020 election...




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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 10:09 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You are absolutely right. It is very important to define what is and what isn't legal. We do that by The Law.
However, violating the law isn't automatically a crime. It can be, but it can also be a felony or a misdemeanor.
Being in the US without the proper documents is in fact a misdemeanor, which does not result in incarceration.
Speaking of illegal, detaining 4 year olds because of a misdemeanor their parents comitted (or detaining minors at all for that matter) is not only against the Law, it's also a gross violation of Human Rights.

You can not overtly decide to ignore your own laws and the human rights, especially as a bargaining tool to get other laws passed, and still call yourself the leader of the free world.

On a personal note I would probably have more respect if the Trump Administration owned up to this zero tolerance policy, instead of hiding behind "the law the Democrats made" pretending your hands are tied. It's not a law, it's a policy, and one (proudly) set by Republican Jeff Sessions.
If you can sign executive orders to help your pipeline friends, or to recall DACA, or to start a travel ban, you can use your power to roll back a simple policy. Or don't if you don't want to, but then at least take responsibility for it.




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 10:24 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Please answer the question below.

Since you are against innocent children being separated from their parents when they illegally enter the US. What would you do? Do we put the entire family in a cell together, where the child could get harmed by other detainees? Would you put the entire family up at a local Comfort Inn, where they could come and go as they please? Or do we just turn them around at the boarder and send them back into the desert? Certainly you have to consider the importance of legal immigration and know that almost any living situation provided here in the states is 10 times better... You should also consider how this could encourage parents/human traffickers to bring children with them to get special consideration crossing the boarder.




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Etile
Etile
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 11:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


btw how long has this been going on. under Obama?




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 12:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


This was pre-Obama.




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Immortal
Immortal
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 01:06 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


In the land of immigrants its amazing how little empathy you guys have towards immigrants...




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Aneurysm
Aneurysm
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 01:41 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


MKJ wrote:
You are absolutely right. It is very important to define what is and what isn't legal. We do that by The Law.
However, violating the law isn't automatically a crime. It can be, but it can also be a felony or a misdemeanor.
Being in the US without the proper documents is in fact a misdemeanor, which does not result in incarceration.
Speaking of illegal, detaining 4 year olds because of a misdemeanor their parents comitted (or detaining minors at all for that matter) is not only against the Law, it's also a gross violation of Human Rights.

You can not overtly decide to ignore your own laws and the human rights, especially as a bargaining tool to get other laws passed, and still call yourself the leader of the free world.

On a personal note I would probably have more respect if the Trump Administration owned up to this zero tolerance policy, instead of hiding behind "the law the Democrats made" pretending your hands are tied. It's not a law, it's a policy, and one (proudly) set by Republican Jeff Sessions.
If you can sign executive orders to help your pipeline friends, or to recall DACA, or to start a travel ban, you can use your power to roll back a simple policy. Or don't if you don't want to, but then at least take responsibility for it.


:up:

Also gramps is a massive moron plz don’t waste your time on him. In fact if we could work out some diplomatic trade, the US electorate would rather have you.




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Digital Nausea
Digital Nausea
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 01:41 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


fKd wrote:
In the land of immigrants its amazing how little empathy you guys have towards immigrants...


“you guys”




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Immortal
Immortal
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 02:37 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Do you need me to be more specific?




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Arrr?
Arrr?
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 02:56 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Like Puff said, Republicans backed the policy by 55%, the only party, gender, education, age or racial group to support it.

I certainly don't feel like Republicans represent me, so I'd rather not be lumped in with them whet you say "you guys".




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Digital Nausea
Digital Nausea
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 03:07 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Aw yes, I am personally caging children at the border...




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Pestilence
Pestilence
Joined: 25 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 03:29 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Transient wrote:
Our immigration system has been fucked up for as long as I've been alive, but never before has a president torn disenfranchised families apart and used them as a bargaining chip to get laws passed. There's a bit of a difference.


Agreed, not arguing that point.




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
Joined: 16 Apr 2000
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 04:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


shaft wrote:
Also gramps is a massive moron plz don’t waste your time on him. In fact if we could work out some diplomatic trade, the US electorate would rather have you.



I'm not the dipshit here treating this type of incident like it's the epicenter of America's immigration problem. This is merely a by product of a broken system that needs repair. So instead of doing anything about it, government chooses to use the situation to smear the opposition. If you think the left's sudden concern for the well being of immigrant children is anything more than a smoke screen to detract from Trump's touted success with North Korea, you're the moron.




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
Joined: 16 Apr 2000
Posts: 20401
PostPosted: 06-19-2018 04:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


fKd wrote:
In the land of immigrants its amazing how little empathy you guys have towards immigrants...


I don't know where you live. But I'm pretty sure you guys don't have an open boarder policy.




Last edited by YourGrandpa on 06-19-2018 06:54 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Canadian Shaft
Canadian Shaft
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 05:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It's tragic that people as ignorant as gwamps exist.




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Blockheaded Blubberboy
Blockheaded Blubberboy
Joined: 16 Apr 2000
Posts: 20401
PostPosted: 06-19-2018 06:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote





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Aneurysm
Aneurysm
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:28 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
btw how long has this been going on. under Obama?



Under previous administrations not everyone crossing was criminally prosecuted and certainly not separated from their children. In certain cases they would keep the family 20 days (legal limit for holding a child) then release them with an ankle monitor until trial.

Interview with a 40yr immigration lawyer.




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Aneurysm
Aneurysm
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 07:30 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


https://apnews.com/dc0c9a5134d14862ba7c7ad9a811160e

Since the White House announced its zero tolerance policy in early May, more than 2,300 children have been taken from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border, resulting in a new influx of young children requiring government care.

Trump administration officials have been sending babies and other young children forcibly separated from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border to at least three "tender age" shelters in South Texas, The Associated Press has learned.


Also, NBC has obtained internal CBP documents that show between June 3rd and June 11th, 91% of parents being prosecuted at the border and forcibly separated from their children were being prosecuted with a MISDEMEANOR.




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Arrr?
Arrr?
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PostPosted: 06-19-2018 09:09 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


YourGrandpa wrote:
This is merely a by product of a broken system that needs repair. So instead of doing anything about it, government chooses to use the situation to smear the opposition. If you think the left's sudden concern for the well being of immigrant children is anything more than a smoke screen to detract from Drumpf's touted success with North Korea, you're the moron.

Finally, something we agree on! The Democrats are scum for pretending to give a flying fuck about immigrants. They've been playing the "I have a black friend" card for decades. The Republicans are scum for letting Drumpf use thousands of children as bargaining chips to get what he wants. The whole system is fucked, neither party has any credibility, and our Democracy may truly be in jeopardy as a result.

That being said, what Drumpf is doing is morally wrong and it should be stopped. Immigrant families should be allowed to come in, no questions asked. Let them earn citizenship and contribute to our economy and culture. :up:




Last edited by Transient on 06-19-2018 09:18 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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