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Topic Starter Topic: Re: Dutcheelections

Legend
Legend
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: 03-16-2017 09:13 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ryoki wrote:
Captain Mazda wrote:
Multiple choices and an educated citizenry?


Educated? VVD is the biggest party, PVV the second biggest :(


But that's part of the fear-mongering and xenophobia sweeping across Europe right now, hopefully more people will come to their senses and the likes of Wilders and his neo-Nazi buttbuddies can fuck off back into the damp holes they slithered out of.




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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-16-2017 10:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


the media seems to be writing this up as an epic win against "populism" and the far right, but didn't the PVV increase its # of seats by 5, and still be 2nd largest party? :alert:

kind of a boost to Wilders personally though, making the entire election about him




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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 03-16-2017 10:50 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah I read headlines like "Wilders loses NL elections", but in reality he had a huge win. Not the biggest party but that's less relevant in a coalition government.




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Cool #9
Cool #9
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PostPosted: 03-17-2017 12:38 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It's another case of spinning the headlines in which way you want. In austria, for example, their rightwing government has congratulated Wilders with his victory. Thing is, the Dutch elections are seen like a dress rehersal for the elections in France and Germany. If Wilders became the biggest party, that would've strengthened people like Marine Le Pen. And it was pretty much the expectation that he would become the biggest, especially if you look at the polls of a few weeks back.

Right now, Wilders sure did win 5 seats and became 2nd biggest party in the Netherlands. But there's still quite a gap with the VVD and he's trailed by just 1 seat by 2 other parties. The result is that, due to the wide array of formation options available to the VVD and their refusal to work with PVV, he's pretty much removed from the playing field. He sure can have a big influence with 20 seats, but considering the amount of influence he's truly had in the past in terms of decision making or coming up with solutions, it's not very hard to imagine that this is 20 seats gone to complete waste. He actually tweeted that he'll do everything to make the cabinet's life very difficult the next four years. Yeah, that's not a really constructive way of having 20 seats. That's being disruptive and childish.

I think it's safe to say that most of the media were holding their breath in anticipation of Wilders taking the lead and empowering the whole extreme right throughout Europe. With that not having happened, I think the resulting headlines are a sigh of relief rather than a celebration of victory.




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Arrr?
Arrr?
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PostPosted: 03-18-2017 12:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The world has gone in a really scary direction lately. I'm glad for any reprieve we can get.



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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-18-2017 04:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


the world was heading in a scary direction long before Trump and the so-called far right started raising their flabby orange heads

it started back in the late 1970s when governments (in collusion with business) decided to target inflation, globalise supply chains, and allow free movement of capital (but not labour). the logic of those decisions has inexorably led to the slow suffocation of democracy, and hence to a reaction against this which inevitably takes the form of nativism because there is no opposition organised at an international level

tl;dr - the 'business as usual' types are ultimately to blame




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oldskool
oldskool
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PostPosted: 03-20-2017 02:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I voted D66 because I'm all for education and Europe.

I honestly gonna miss the British people leaving the EU. You island people inherently belong to the history of Europe and it's a shame that we part on choices that are based on lies and populism.

I'm visiting Edinbro' in June and will convince every Scot I'll meet to stay part of this haphazard union.




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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-21-2017 04:30 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


saturn wrote:
lies and populism


really?

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/

Image

leavers: democracy
remainers: economy, culture




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oldskool
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PostPosted: 03-21-2017 05:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
saturn wrote:
lies and populism


really?

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/

Image

leavers: democracy
remainers: economy, culture


Two words: Nigel Farage




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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-21-2017 11:18 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


meaning..?




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Truffle Shuffle
Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-21-2017 11:50 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Remain voters reasons - perfectly logical
Leave voters - MURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR



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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-21-2017 03:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


yeah democracy is overrated. we should let experts decide what's best, so long as i agree with all their decisions of course




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Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-21-2017 05:17 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sounds like democracy



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 03-21-2017 10:18 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hah yeah, that actually is, albeit a somewhat cynical, but reasonably accurate description of the democratic process.

We choose representatives (experts) to govern us by voting for them and, naturally, we vote for those we agree with.




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Truffle Shuffle
Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 10:22 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Aye :)

But to expand on it, it's how we determine the credibility of an arguement, innit ?. Some people hold their beliefs more strongly than others but it's upto both sides to try and convince us otherwise, with facts, analysis, statistics or whatnot.

To come back to the Brexit debate, it's why I firmly believe our politicians failed us, not just with Brexit either - infighting / power struggles mostly for personal gain rather than what's best for the country. The 3 mains reasons in that pic posted for the 'leave' side can be explained away pretty simply but the lack of a credible defence allowed those beliefs to become major issues. I remember one of the lines frequently touted being something along the lines of 'people are sick of listening to experts', which is kinda like saying 'despite the credibility of your arguement I'm just gonna stick my fingers in my ears' - as spoken by an apparent expert. Why don't we stop listening to 'experts' about global warming n all ?, or that smoking causes cancer ?, or that riding without a helmet increases the chances of dying from head injruy ?.

The problem with the British public it seems, is that they wanted the best of both worlds. Shit like free movement of goods with border control :dork: , there was a series of mixed messages promising their wishes from various sources all saying different things, people just listened to what they wanted to hear and now we're all caught in a tide of 'this is what the country wanted, article 50, going against it is against the wish of the people' regardless of what the voters believed they were getting.



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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 10:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
representatives (experts)


:dts:




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Truffle Shuffle
Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 10:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Look what happens to America when you put a non expert in charge :p



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Etile
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 10:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


losCHUNK wrote:
text wall


you're playing a game of "i'll judge you on what i say you think, not what you actually think"

if that survey had come back with top three reasons to leave as

1. hatred of foreigners
2. hatred of brown people
3. want to go back to how it was in 1970

you'd lap it up without a moment's hesitation. but instead it says something that's inconvenient and uncomfortable for a lot of remainers: that they give rather less of a shit about democracy than all their virtue-signalling on the subject would lead you to believe, and are rather more swayed by somewhat grubbier economic reasons than they care to admit

p.s. i voted remain, before anyone starts




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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 10:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


losCHUNK wrote:
Look what happens to America when you put a non expert in charge :p


so far, not a lot. America is bigger than Trump




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Truffle Shuffle
Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 11:01 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
losCHUNK wrote:
text wall


you're playing a game of "i'll judge you on what i say you think, not what you actually think"

if that survey had come back with top three reasons to leave as

1. hatred of foreigners
2. hatred of brown people
3. want to go back to how it was in 1970

you'd lap it up without a moment's hesitation. but instead it says something that's inconvenient and uncomfortable for a lot of remainers: that they give rather less of a shit about democracy than all their virtue-signalling on the subject would lead you to believe, and are rather more swayed by somewhat grubbier economic reasons than they care to admit

p.s. i voted remain, before anyone starts


I was just arguing the pic and expanded upon the wider picture, like the bone idled rhetoric from the 'leave' campaign. It has nothing to do with them giving a crap about democracy, infact you could apply the same label to me as I'm arguing against a democratic decision believing that the publics been duped.

If 1 or all of those reasons were about the economy, which apparently isn't a good enough reason for the majority of 'leave' voters, then I could've argued against things like the 12 bln gained from not funding the EU would probaly be countered by the £ tanking and the increase in fuel prices without tariffs, or the rebates we get (almost half) off of that 12 bln, or the apparent loss in investment that's upcoming, the job creation etc. I didn't suggest that this was about racism, I was saying the public was promised things they will never have but already had.



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Last edited by losCHUNK on 03-22-2017 11:03 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Truffle Shuffle
Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 11:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
losCHUNK wrote:
Look what happens to America when you put a non expert in charge :p


so far, not a lot. America is bigger than Trump


Cos it's still being held together by experts.



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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 02:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


losCHUNK wrote:
stuff


just one problem with your "we wuz duped" story: if that were the case we'd have seen a collapse in the Leave poll numbers in the months after the referendum once the "deception" had been uncovered - but this hasn't happened. they've held firm at the same 52/48 split. not much sign of regrexit

i can see there's no point continuing to argue this if you're just going to base your arguments on claims about what Leavers thought that have no empirical basis




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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 02:17 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


losCHUNK wrote:
Cos it's still being held together by experts.


no it's being held together by the constitutionally mandated division of powers that means there's only so much damage one orange chimp in the White House can do




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Truffle Shuffle
Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 02:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
losCHUNK wrote:
stuff


just one problem with your "we wuz duped" story: if that were the case we'd have seen a collapse in the Leave poll numbers in the months after the referendum once the "deception" had been uncovered - but this hasn't happened. they've held firm at the same 52/48 split. not much sign of regrexit

i can see there's no point continuing to argue this if you're just going to base your arguments on claims about what Leavers thought that have no empirical basis


Cos I still believe that they're duped, I've said why I think that, through false promises. The polls are still over the place, as even though they still want article 50 to be pushed through there's still strong opinions about remaining part of the single market and such.

You say I have no empirical basis, assuming that I based my reasoning behind a racist population and only stating that the underlying issue was the economy (based on ?), but I was the one that provided arguements and counter arguements to that without any kind of assistance from your point of view. So not really much of a discussion anyway.



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Last edited by losCHUNK on 03-22-2017 02:37 PM, edited 4 times in total.

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Truffle Shuffle
Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-22-2017 02:27 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
losCHUNK wrote:
Cos it's still being held together by experts.


no it's being held together by the constitutionally mandated division of powers that means there's only so much damage one orange chimp in the White House can do


You mean 'experts' :)



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Cool #9
Cool #9
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PostPosted: 03-23-2017 01:36 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
Eraser wrote:
representatives (experts)


:dts:

Didn't mean to say our representatives are experts, only that our political representatives are analogous to your experts.




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Etile
Etile
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PostPosted: 03-23-2017 09:40 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


look, i get what you're trying to say: everyone who voted Leave is either a seething xenophobe or a sucker who got duped

i just happen to think you're (mostly) wrong about that

good luck winning these people back with that attitude!




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Truffle Shuffle
Truffle Shuffle
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PostPosted: 03-23-2017 10:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
look, i get what you're trying to say: everyone who voted Leave is either a seething xenophobe or a sucker who got duped



It's Trumpism

A snake oil sales patter by popularist movements to gain the support of the common folk whilst singing from the same hymn sheet as those they're told to mistrust. Or 'duped' into thinking they're getting something they either won't get or already have due to our politicians having a pissing contest

I never even suggested it was about xenophobia either, you said that in your 1st reply.

I could try winning people over by arguing the points, but I was the only one providing both sides of the arguement...



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