What is the minimal size of a doorway in Quake III?

[Porto]

Are all the collision boxes of the character models the same size? So, is Slash actually the same size physically as Tank Jr. ?

[Eraser]

Yes they are all the same size.

[Bacon]

Player boxes are 30x30x56 so the minimum size for a door should be 30 units wide and 56 units tall.

[Porto]

Thanks Eraser and Bacon. But if I make a door 30 units wide, will it be difficult to enter the door?

[Eraser]

It probably will be difficult.
Open the q3dm7 sample map that comes with GtkRadiant and see how unrealistically large doorways and hallways are.

Also keep in mind that Quake 3 is a very fast game. People will want to be able to strafejump through doorways and hallways without getting stuck behind walls or detail geometry. That's why walls are usually "clipped off" (placing invisible, solid brushes along walls) so that any detailing is smoothed off and the wall feels like a single smooth surface.



Someone should really move this thread to the Level Editing forum.

[MKJ]

yes

[obsidian]

Player box models are 32x32x56 units (at least that's how they show up in the editor). General rule of thumb size of doors are at least 128x128 units, often times larger.

[Porto]

Sorry for posting this on the wrong forum.
I didn't know levels were clipped off, makes sense though. Thanks!
I'll remember to keep it at least 128x128.

I'm making a map inspired on Kowloon Walled City (so not a mirror copy of an existing map as my first map!), once I've finished the blueprints I'll make a thread about it to ask you guys if it is possible to build it in 3D (is a seven story building possible or would the framerate go down way too much?)

[Pat Howard]

first of all, a 32-unit door would be ridiculous

i just read about Kowloon. really interesting. i had never heard of it before. anything is possible, just try to keep your entire map from being visible from any one area. study classic maps and see how they do this.

if you want to get a good feel for scale (and i think you should as it's one of the main things people will judge when deciding whether to take your map seriously) you should really decompile classic maps and study their dimensions.

i'd suggest you look at q3dm6, q3dm13, and maybe a few classic custom maps like blood run, aerowalk, and toxicity. you should recognize some patterns, like how most doors are 128 or 160 units wide and 128-256 units long. most floor levels are 192-256 units different in height, etc. you'll also notice how most experienced mappers don't stray very far from the 64-unit grid. there's rarely a reason to go under the 32 grid when planning a layout, and it makes the brushwork way more modular.

to decompile a map, create a batch file (just a .txt file renamed .bat) with this code in it:

Code: Select all

set MAP_PATH="C:\Program Files\Quake iii arena\MAPNAME.map"
cd "C:\Program Files\Quake iii arena\q3map2"
q3map2 -game -q3 -convert -format map %MAP_PATH%

open the .pk3 of your choice, open the maps folder inside, and extract the .bsp file into your Q3A folder (or wherever you want, just make sure you use the right file path in the first line of the batch). run the batch file and a file called "MAPNAME_converted.map" should pop out in the same place. use view>filter in gtkradiant to hide all the extraneous entities, clipping, and hint brushes and just study the bare bones of the layout.

[Porto]

you should really decompile classic maps and study their dimensions.

I'll definitely do this. I'm still new to mapping so I'm sure it will make me more familiar with the way maps are built.

Currently I'm still thinking/working on the general design of my map.
Would you rather have a map that takes place on the roofs (longer, more in the open shooting) or on the groundfloor and inside the buildings (extreme close quarter combat)? I think the latter would be a more realistic experience of Kowloon (sadly there is a lack of good games based on Kowloon Walled City) so aesthetically I think it'll be better, but gameplaywise?

[cityy]

What you need to understand is that the different weapons in quake vary in usefulness depending on your map's geometry. There is no "better" or "worse" but there is what you call balanced geometry.
In a game different players will end up picking up different weapons. Depending on the weapons they have, they will/should move around the map to get the largest advantage out of them.

In a large and open environment, a railgun will always be more powerful than a RL because it is a hitscan weapon (just like MG, LG) and RL is a projectile weapon (just like Grenade Launcher, Plasma gun).
Railgun has instant hit, no splash and a high reload time. That makes it profitable in long range fights. LG has a high rate of fire and is almost instant hit but depends a lot on good tracking, so you should make sure to not be bounced around by rockets while you use it. That's why it is used on mid range fights mostly.
If you look at the RL or PG for instance, they have splash damage and are not instant hit. The latter makes it hard to use those weapons on a long range or to use them to shoot upwards. Hence placing rocket launcher on a higher spot in the map, does potentially make it more powerful and gives it a bigger role in gameplay (unless the height steps in the map are so high that it gets basically useless). Splash damage is really profitable in narrow hallways or choke points because opposing players have very little space to dodge. Shooting rockets in a narrow hallways is always easier than shooting rockets in an open yard.

You could (of course this does not always apply) set some general rules.
Open wide area: Projectile vs Hitscan = Hitscan wins
Narrow area: Projectile vs Hitscan = Projectile wins
Player on top (height) level with Projectile vs player on low level with projectile = upper player wins

Regarding the last example: You might imagine I'm talking about large height differences here but that's not only the case. Even small differences in height of player positions can create major advantages. 3 stair steps (24 units) can decide who hits better rockets in a direct fight. That's one of the great things about quake and quake level design. Very small measures can have very big impacts.

To get back to your question: A good map is one that balances the weapons by the use of geometry. Provide a good mix of open and narrow spaces to give all weapons areas of strength. Place your major items in a way that forces players to travel through both kinds of areas (narrow and wide). Be aware of the consequences your geometry choices lead to. Additionally to what was described above, an open area is always more prominent than a closed one. That means more eyes are on you going through that area and you have a higher chance to take damage. Narrow areas might be better for setting up traps while they are less prominent.

Hope it helps!

[Pat Howard]

the stuff cityy said is spot on.

as far as your kowloon idea, super realistic cityscapes don't usually work that well in q3a. quake's movement kind of requires large open rooms. if you want players to be camping out in houses and sniping from windows, well, quake's just not that kind of game.

you can, however, make a more open map that is inspired by a city. hipshot's maps do this really well. see industrial, for example. sumatra's asian nights is a more abstract example of a city map. don't be afraid to narrow down your idea by focusing on a small chunk of the city rather than the entire place.

check out my articles on how to design balanced layouts if you want more info. on gameplay.

[Eraser]

It's a good idea to inspire architectural traits from Kowloon City, but design a map that's nothing like it otherwise. Build a Quake level that has the same atmosphere as Kowloon City, but don't try to literally build Kowloon City in Quake. That won't work.

[Porto]

Thanks for your advice and tips!
I know different weapons cause different scenarios and gameplay, hence I should build the map around that. I haven't started yet since I'm busy with my exams, but I hope to show you concepts in the near future!