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Topic Starter Topic: Somebody help save the noob from Cranky Steve status!

The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 573
PostPosted: 03-13-2005 03:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hello folks,

Glad to see this forum back up. Although I started learning GTKRadiant about a year ago, (I managed to post a couple of good Cranky Steve candidates) I got busy and didn't get back to it until a little before this forum went down so I am still very much a noob (this is also the first editor I am learning).

On the advice of some folks here, I started a small map that is really one room with a few very small rooms attached. I have learned enough so far to realize that I have a long way to go in just about every aspect of mapping. However, the tutorials can only take me so far and I need some input from some experienced mappers.

This map is not really even a beta. It is just a map I am using to learn some of the basics like how to add trim (and to overcome my fear of using patches :icon23: ). I am sure I have done lots of things wrong, but I don't know enough to spot them all yet. I included the map in the pk3 in case it might help to see what I actually did. Any help from you guys will be greatly appreciated.

ONLY YOU can save me from Cranky Steve status!

Download: http://www.budgetgraphics.com/q3maps/trim4/trim4nodome.pk3

Screenshots:

Image
Image
Image
Image



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Lasery Roboty
Lasery Roboty
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
PostPosted: 03-13-2005 03:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Doesn't look to bad judging from the screenshots, I'll take a look at it in a few hours. Atm, if cranky steve reviews this map, I'll have his head. It's nowhere near cranky steve material, and to be honest it looks quite good. Will have to see from a player perspective later of course.



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Who's that man, Mommy?
Who's that man, Mommy?
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 5316
PostPosted: 03-13-2005 04:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


i smell hoax :smirk:

[edit] but i'm a bit uncertain - the huge amount of courved surfaces looks a bit like a newcomer did the map. the level of intrication however it completely ok, judging from the screens.
it's just the texturing that is really bad.




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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 573
PostPosted: 03-13-2005 06:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for the feedback.

I am still pretty new at this. I did really use a lot of patches in this map and I did notice some possible performance issues, but it just happened that I tried installing new bus master drivers at the same time I noticed the problems.

I also had this idea originally of making this map look like it was made mostly of stainless steel and I found a texture set from Mr. Cleantex that seemed to be what I was looking for. However, this means that a lot of the walls are textured with shaders, but I thought maybe I could get away with that on a map this small. It could be the combination of the shaders and the curves that are actually causing the issues.

Let me know if you guys see framerate drops and what you think I should do.

Thanks again



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Etile
Etile
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 34898
PostPosted: 03-14-2005 04:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Those stairs remind me of Doom.

Def not Cranky Steve material. A box where the floor goes up and down, the only weapon is a BFG and it's flooded with every coloured lighting there is - that's Cranky Steve territory.




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Cool #9
Cool #9
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 44131
PostPosted: 03-15-2005 02:17 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan wrote:
Those stairs remind me of Doom.

Def not Cranky Steve material. A box where the floor goes up and down, the only weapon is a BFG and it's flooded with every coloured lighting there is - that's Cranky Steve territory.


don't forget about walls made out of lava ;)

Oh and these screenshots don't look that bad at all




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Etile
Etile
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 34898
PostPosted: 03-15-2005 03:55 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


This thread gave me an idea: for everyone who wants to, to submit the worst map they can make, with all the truly eye-melting features of a Cranky Steve specimen. Could be a laff. Maps would only take 1/2 hour to knock up.




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Who's that man, Mommy?
Who's that man, Mommy?
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 5316
PostPosted: 03-15-2005 05:13 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


haha.. awesome :icon19:
i'm in




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I'm the dude!
I'm the dude!
Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498
PostPosted: 03-15-2005 06:31 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


seremtan, if you want to do something like that, it would sound like fun... Just start a new thread though, so you don't end up hijacking surgeon62's thread.

That IS very nice work for a noob!



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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 573
PostPosted: 03-15-2005 06:38 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hey, I could just dig up the first maps I did. Of course, I didn't realize how bad they were at the time.

I included awesome features like weapons encased in invisible boxes of water, always spawning with a teleporter, and a circular room with a jump pad in the middle that sent you to the outer wall which was rigged with push triggers that sent you spinning around the wall like a ball on a roulette wheel! (I hope no one remembers this)

Thanks for the positive feedback. However, once some of you have a minute to load the map and take a look, I think that some of the things I did will show that I am still learning. Maybe I'm wrong, but I guess we will see.



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Gibblet
Gibblet
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 19
PostPosted: 03-15-2005 05:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


oh come on..this topic reminds me of all those hot/insecure girls who always complain how fat and ugly they are. Dude, your map looks pretty sweet. Not even close to cranky steve material.



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The Borked One
The Borked One
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 4708
PostPosted: 03-15-2005 05:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


HAHA this dude still around? The steve guy? :icon19:




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Immortal
Immortal
Joined: 20 Jun 2000
Posts: 2781
PostPosted: 03-15-2005 09:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


First up, you have a missing texture

Quote:
trying textures/zfs_eff/zfs_anim_z.TGA...
WARNING: R_FindImageFile could not find 'textures/zfs_eff/zfs_anim_z.tga' in
shader 'textures/zfs/zfs_anim_tin'
Shader textures/zfs/zfs_anim_tin has a stage with no image
trying textures/radiant/notex.TGA...


and a missing sound

Quote:
WARNING: could not find sound/misc/windfly.wav - using default


The windfly sound isn't part of the Q3 package. I don't know why it pops up so many times. Surely you'd want electronic sounds for ambience.

The pk3 includes your common.shader. Shouldn't be there, since we've all got that.

The map is far from being Cranky Steve material, but... The shiny tin texture is way overused. It's not just cos it kills the performance (though let it be noted that I have the World's Crappiest Graphics Card™), but because an excess of shiny metal is aesthetically irritating. Tone it down rather than tone it out. On the other hand, the r-speeds aren't as bad as I thought they might be.

You need to be more diligent in caulking behind curves and, if I don't miss my mark, the inner faces of some brushes. Running the map with r_nocurves 1 revealed quite a few surfaces which ought to be caulked.

There are LOD cracks around the broad trims of the JPs near the launch pads that send you across the map to the RL. If the curves are all lined up in the editor, try turning them into a func_group.

As for item placement, I'd say there are too many shells for the SG for a start. I found myself on the top floor of the level most of the time and ended up picking up the YA so many times that it may as well have been red armour. I felt that health items needed to be distributed better throughout the map. Again, on the top level you have the two 25 healths on the bridges, but nothing, as far as I recall at either end of that level where you make the jump for the RL.

Although there isn't a dearth of items in the map, the bots quite frequently resorted to the gauntlet. On one occasion, I ran into Hunter who was standing in one of the lower passages aiming up at section of wall for no apparent reason. On another occasion, Xaero appeared not to be able to tell the difference between "pillar" and "maypole". Possibly a few more clip brushes should be being pressed into service; or botclip, if you prefer.




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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 573
PostPosted: 03-16-2005 08:06 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Anwulf, thanks for the feedback. I fixed the missing texture and removed the common shader from the pk3.

I have no idea how the windfly.wav sound got into the map. I haven't added any sounds. I'll have to figure out where that is coming from.
Quote:
The shiny tin texture is way overused.

I kinda figured it might be too much. Maybe I can just use it on the parts that are trim.
Quote:
Running the map with r_nocurves 1 revealed quite a few surfaces which ought to be caulked.

I have never used r_nocurves before. I loaded the map with it and I am not sure what I should be looking for. There were HOM effects all over the place. Is that telling me something? I started this map before I learned that the way a lot of people do it is to start with all caulk brushes and only texture what can be seen, so I know there are some places I missed fixing.

I am still working on lining up the trim you mentioned with LOD cracks (what's an LOD crack anyway?). Anyone know of an advanced tutorial on patch manipulation that might help me?

On your item placement comments: Do you think I should ditch the YA? For the health, are you saying you think I should add more at the 2 end areas or move the 2 25's to those areas?

The bots do a lot of strange things in this map. I have clipped off a few areas, but it looks like I need to do alot more. One of the worst things they do is keep trying to jump down the holes for the jumpads from the lowest level to the top level. They are trying to get weapons there, but it takes 3-4 tries and they just keep bouncing back up.

Thanks again for your help.



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Immortal
Immortal
Joined: 20 Jun 2000
Posts: 2781
PostPosted: 03-16-2005 07:48 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


surgeon62 wrote:
I have never used r_nocurves before. I loaded the map with it and I am not sure what I should be looking for. There were HOM effects all over the place. Is that telling me something? I started this map before I learned that the way a lot of people do it is to start with all caulk brushes and only texture what can be seen, so I know there are some places I missed fixing.


After r_nocurves 1, type r_clear 1 to get rid of all the HOM. You'll get a much better idea of where there are unnecessary textures.

surgeon62 wrote:
(what's an LOD crack anyway?).


LOD means "level of detail". The further away you stand from a patch, the fewer the polys that are rendered. If you have a look at archways from a distance, you'll see the curves are no longer smooth. A LOD crack is where the verts of one patch don't quite match up with the verts of an adjacent patch. They may do in the editor, but the patches are being split up in the game slightly differently, leaving apparent gaps.

One solution is to try turning the patches into a func_group. Another solution might be to change the geometry of the curves in question so that they're properly semi-circular around the back of the JP.

surgeon62 wrote:
Do you think I should ditch the YA?


No, but you could try moving it. Perhaps you put it where the RA is and team the RA with the RL.

surgeon62 wrote:
For the health, are you saying you think I should add more at the 2 end areas or move the 2 25's to those areas?


Add 25 healths at either end and perhaps place the two on the bridges on opposite sides from each other. I like to try for an even distribution of health items throughout a map. You'll probably have to experiment a bit to get things just right.

surgeon62 wrote:
One of the worst things they do is keep trying to jump down the holes for the jumpads from the lowest level to the top level. They are trying to get weapons there, but it takes 3-4 tries and they just keep bouncing back up.


Perhaps you should move the weapons if that's what's motivating them to behave so stupidly. I've seen the same sort of behaviour myself.




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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 573
PostPosted: 03-25-2005 11:05 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I finally had a chance to change/fix some things. I moved the weapons/items around quite a bit and added some health on the far sides of the top level. I also fixed te LOD cracks and added a lot of caulk and bot/player clip.

If anyone has some time, take a look and let me know what you think. The link at the top of the thread will give you the latest version.

Thanks



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social engineer
social engineer
Joined: 13 Oct 2001
Posts: 30226
PostPosted: 03-25-2005 11:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


from the looks of the screenies, i really like it. not being a mapper myself, i would be the last person you'd want technical suggestions on. but, when you have a beta ready, i'd more than happy to comment on gameplay. again, looks real good, keep up the good work.




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Immortal
Immortal
Joined: 20 Jun 2000
Posts: 2781
PostPosted: 03-28-2005 08:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Still some missing textures. It's a good idea to test maps with a clean installation of Q3 so that you can spot these things.

Quote:
trying textures/charon_dm13/meat-wall_greyrocky.TGA...
trying textures/zfs_eff/zfs_anim_f.TGA...
WARNING: R_FindImageFile could not find 'textures/zfs_eff/zfs_anim_f.tga' in
shader 'textures/zfs/zfs_anim_tin'
trying textures/radiant/notex.TGA...


textures/radiant/notex should even be there. It's an editor-only texture and not a substitute for caulk.

Remove "single" from the list of options in the .arena file. Is the .map file meant to be in the pk3? texture/base_wall/chrome_env.jpg shouldn't be in the pk3 because it's an original Q3 texture.

You can drop down the JP shafts near the cross-level launch pads and land on a small ledge near the bottom of the shaft. It won't be helping bot performance. It'd be better if all the parts of the shaft were identical in curvature.

I've got some screenshots as well of where there are sparklies and z-fighting, but I can't upload anything to my website at the moment. I'll try tomorrow. The upshot is that you seem to have endcap cap sparklies where you really want to use bevel caps. there are also quite a few instances of z-fighting because you haven't caulked behind curves.

The overall performance isn't good because of all the shaders and general lack of vis blocking. I wouldn't mind seeing the addition of the LG or RG as an alternative to the RL and PG.

Botplay still isn't great. They only occasionally seemed to go for the RA, for example, and there was still a lot of play at the top of the level.

[The next day when my website was accessible again.]

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome01.jpg" width = "480" height = "360">

The sparklies are along the edges of the cap and along the edge of the curve in the background between the YA and the 5 healths.

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome02.jpg" width = "480" height = "360">

More of the same here and on the other side. You can just see the sparklies in this shot.

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome03.jpg" width = "480" height = "360">

And same again. More sparklies along the edge of the cap.

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome04.jpg" width = "480" height = "360">

There are still quite a few curves behind which you haven't caulked. The black line is a variety of z-fighting because the surface behind the patch isn't caulked. So also the curve in the background.

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome05.jpg" width = "480" height = "360">

When you jump down these steps you get caught on the arch. As I've suggested, remove it or raise it. I'd remove at leats one box of shells from that landing, or both because of their proximity to the SG.

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome06.jpg" width = "480" height = "360">

Another example of z-fighting. You could also make that curve out of an endcap to avoid the seam behind the RA. Also, you could have a trim between the curve and the wall, again to make the seam less obvious.

I took the liberty of having a look at the .map file. One enormous problem is that you've enclosed the level in a box. Never a good idea, and certainly not recommended. The sparklies above mostly seem to be because you used endcap caps. Don't forget that while many patches can be adjacent to one brush, you can't have more than once brush adjacent to a patch otherwise you end up with T-junction cracks. An potential instance is the walls where the RA is (although here you've extended the brushes beyond the edge of the patch and have ended up with z-fighting). You could certainly make a few more brushes detail, but not the outer walls of the level.




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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 573
PostPosted: 03-28-2005 07:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for more feedback.

Anwulf, you mentioned cauking behind curves. I am not sure I am doing this properly even where I have done it. For most of the arches, I have just selected the surface of the brush behind them and changed the texture to caulk. Is that enough or should I be adding a separate caulk brush behind these?

I will look at the other issues as well.



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Immortal
Immortal
Joined: 20 Jun 2000
Posts: 2781
PostPosted: 03-29-2005 06:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


surgeon62 wrote:
Anwulf, you mentioned cauking behind curves. I am not sure I am doing this properly even where I have done it. For most of the arches, I have just selected the surface of the brush behind them and changed the texture to caulk. Is that enough or should I be adding a separate caulk brush behind these?


A good rule of thumb is to build with caulk and texture the visible faces as you go. There may be some times when you need to use separate brushes; but for the most part, you probably won't have to.

For example, in your map you can caulk these brush faces

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome07.jpg" width = "381" height = "360">

and others like them.

Sometimes you might have to split brushes if the caulked face would otherwise be visible. For example, here near the SG.

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome08.jpg" width = "480" height = "402">

Splitting these brushes might cause problems elsewhere so this is the sort of place where you could use separate caulk brushes and a vertical trim.

<img src = "http://anwulf.teamhuh.com/images/nodome09.jpg" width = "262" height = "382">

The faces behind the curve and the pilaster I've added are caulked.




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