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Topic Starter Topic: Re: AEdm7 - Beta 1 - d/l (update!)

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PostPosted: 11-16-2009 01:36 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Had a really productive day...

  • I closed off two areas with a gate. One you suggested the near the GL TP, and another one above the 2 way JP leading either to the LG or the PG room. This forces folks to actually use the "longer path" corridor from LG to PG.
  • Because of these changes I had a few "cool" dead ends that I used to place weapons. The LG moved to the TP GL dead end and the other side of the door now has the RG. PG, the RLs stayed in place.
  • I really *hate* the AP design... I replaces one AP (in the Quad arena) with two angled metal planks, this slows things down a bit, but should be OK. The other AP will get an id AP texture (I'll probably need to change the back texture though).
  • Added more "square cylinder" air ducts in the RL arena and the PG room.
  • Only two TPs left, the one were the GL was (your image), this leads to the PG room, exists in the TP niche there (TP in PG room was removed). The other TP left is the one in the Quad arena, existing in the previous TP niche, near the SG room looking into the RL arena.
  • Moved the MH into a niche on the other side of the corridor. Wanted to have the MH a bit further away from the Quad arena.
  • The RA is on the PG arena's floor, to make it a tiny bit harder to get out of the pit.
  • Noted that the map did not actually *have* ammo ;)... had not missed it a bit up to now, only noticed it when looking for "item deco". Added some.
  • Will look into the health issue.
  • Bots play the map a lot better now that the TPs are no longer two-way. Also go for the Quad more.
  • Still thinking about reducing the line of slight in a few areas, e.g. from the LG side to the other SG side. This would make the corridors less linear, and the layout a bit more compact.
  • Bars in ceiling no longer have floor texture, even though I liked it, using rusted metal instead.
  • Added colored light orange and red. Placed it in the indented wall deco, not quite sure about this, looks a bit "too funky".
  • Also noted the map is not hinted... vis works well thanks to the two closed off areas though. Map won't need much hinting.
  • Boxes slightly rotated, makes them look so much less sterile now.
  • Thinking of using my "nifty" black respawn pad textures (weapons, items) from AEcell, instead of the white ones... not quite sure if this will work.
  • Will try to add fan-based JPs, somewhat like in SolarAE.
  • Trying to come up with some more nifty details.

cityy, your "liking" the map really motivated me to get off my butt and work on the map, thanks.




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PostPosted: 11-18-2009 01:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Added Tabun's decals to the map, rusted planks replace a AP, the new JPs are now fan-bases, using the swirl effect of SolarAE, respawn pads using AEcell textures now:


Next: Add plants, rethink the skybox, rethink pathing.




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 11-18-2009 05:05 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Looking great there AEon. I really like the swirl on the JPs.

[edit] Those angled brushes in the middle of the picture (the light structures) need a trim or something. Or you could caulk those faces and place a patch mesh over the brush (manipulating the verts to match the brush) so the texture will skew correctly.




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 11-18-2009 11:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, looks even better than before. :) These 2 orange lights at the pillar in the middle of the screenshot look a bit too saturated, imo. If you choose another skybox you should definitely take a bright one which is maybe less blueish. The JPs and the details look awesome :up:



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PostPosted: 11-19-2009 05:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


phantazm11,
yo, get what you mean, never occured to me, will try "aligning" things on a simply patch mesh.

cityy,
I am using the color all over the place. You may be right about the saturation... I'll keep it until the next beta, then everyone can check in-game.

About the skybox... looked through and tested many of them (from the lvlworld skybox pack)... alas none of the are really that much better. There was one skybox with a destroyed city scape that looked quite good, i.e. it fit the theme, alas the image quality was too blurry and the sky totally gray. It really makes me wonder if composing several existing skyboxes may not be required (not that the authors would like that).

What I'd really like to have is a skybox based off a FarCry map (e.g. my own AEcanyon), placing the map in the jungle. The greenish decals would then really fit the theme, i.e. the erosion made plausible. Any suggestions for a good skybox appreciated. Going with a "greenish" theme I tested Hipshot's Interstellar, alas that did not work.

What I am looking for:
  • Mostly clear blue sky with interested white cloud formations.
  • "Tall terrain" in a few areas with lush jungle look.
  • Sun should be up in the sky, not a sunset or dawn.




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PostPosted: 11-19-2009 12:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


On the skybox..I actually changed the sky from the iceflow, to a night skybox that has a planet and a moon on each side of it..it's very well done. I can't remember what map that I yanked it out from..but a couple of good maps use it. I changed it because I've played aedm7 more than anyone guaranteed, and the skybox lines up there were annoying the hell out of me! I actually pm'd Hipshot a long long long time ago, because he has the "this is not aeon" under his name. :rolleyes: ..no reply of course. If you want me to put up a link for thr skybox I can....but you'll probably want a daytime skybox I suppose.




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PostPosted: 11-19-2009 01:25 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah... a night sky is probably cool in a Gothic setting... but I would very much prefer to have a "happy" sky ;)... I want folks to like playing in this map.

Something completely different: I could try creating a sky portal for the very first time. This would let me define a skyline / geometry. I know Hipshot put a *huge* amount of work into the sky portal for Solar, just getting it to be low poly. So I am hesitating to "use" so many polygons on a sky portal you can see from all over the map. On the good side, the map even with the detail I have added is still at 6k r_speeds max. Hmm...

Well, I'll be adding plants next... I'll then see how things look r_speeds-wise. Will have them hanging from ceilings, creating decal "spots" on the floors and a few trees that broke through several outdoor floor plates.

P.S.: Tabun your decals are really neat! :toothy: I am really starting to get that convincing gritty look into the map. Alas the cracks do not work with the glass I have... will need to look into that.




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PostPosted: 11-19-2009 03:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Be sure to take a look at the broken glass section on cgtextures. There are quite a few images there that are ready to be used as decals, and obviously there is some very realistic stuff to be found there. ;]



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 11-19-2009 05:45 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I'm excited to see how you will incorporate ambient sounds. I enjoyed the beta of your map. Definitely some good stuff. :)



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PostPosted: 11-20-2009 05:08 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tabun, created some pretty cool :q2: and DOOM textures with a industrial/metal theme, I was thinking of using square DOOM gates, and also the :q2: crates.

Would some Strogg design mess with the map "theme"? Or would a few Strogg logos on boxes etc not really be a problem? (I recreated them for AEcell BTW).




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 11-20-2009 05:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You should put some "strogg boxes" into the map for the next beta. You can still remove them afterwards if I folks say that they don't like them.



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PostPosted: 11-20-2009 12:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
Don't be puzzeled about the skybox lines, in the other thread you should by now have understood that at present *ANY* skybox will show such lines, not matter what hardware you have.



not true at all. when i upgraded my pc hardware those lines disappeared.

although nice map. i like the gameplay, very well playable in cpm physics.



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PostPosted: 11-20-2009 01:06 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Using Tabun's :q2: crate textures in the map:

    Image

I like them, though they look a little cartoony, IMO. Added a conveyor belt as AP (using T_Creutzenberg texture and shader, hope that is OK).




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PostPosted: 11-20-2009 02:36 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Dam! I'm SO glad you're working on this map. :D




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PostPosted: 11-20-2009 03:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some experiments with colored light, the Quad should have a blue-ish light, the niches in the corridors use orange and red...

    Image

In the very background you can see one of the closed off doors using Tabun's DOOM'ish door texture. The RA used to be in this area, I have the Quad and PG here now. The Quad was too much for the "old" Quad arena with RL etc. Now this slightly off the trodden path area should attract folks - those wanting the Quad that is.




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PostPosted: 11-20-2009 05:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It's pretty damned cool to see those (very old) textures of mine in a neat map. Never did think they'd see any use outside of Generations Arena maps. :]



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PostPosted: 11-23-2009 08:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


To add more variation to the crates in the map, Tabun thankfully created a few additional crate texture variations. The crates without "logos" should help tone down the Strogg overdose. Also using silver crates now.

    Image

The crates are ASE models, thus I can finally ignore the texture issues I had with rotating brushes using GTKradiant 1.2.13 (even in the most trivial z-axis rotation cases with texture lock turned *on*). All crates have spawnflags 4 set - I want proper lightmaps.

Note also the Tabun's smudge decals. Should Sock allow the usage of POM (Pyramid of the Magical) greenery, I'll have vegetation hanging from the open ceilings, causing these smudges on the floors. There will be trees pushing trough RL arena floors, and also small plants cracking up floor plates.




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PostPosted: 11-24-2009 12:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Changed the JP leading to the AP. It now connects the RL1 arena with the upper (GL) floor, existing near the TP. This way you can reach the upper floor much more conveniently.

    Image

Also added decorative lights and barrels.




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The Illuminated
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PostPosted: 11-24-2009 02:16 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
Should Sock allow the usage of POM (Pyramid of the Magical) greenery, I'll have vegetation hanging from the open ceilings, causing these smudges on the floors. There will be trees pushing trough RL arena floors, and also small plants cracking up floor plates.


I don't see why not! :D Remember to get the POM source pack, it has all the ASE/LWO models I used for the plants etc. So you can rotate/scale/remap them as much as you want. Also the source pack contains plant skins I did not used, dark brown/yellow versions which might suit your map better.

If you are still want to use a winter skybox I recently merged an old one of mine with a Hipshot cloudy one. It is a lot better than the one you are currently using but it still odd for your current map. I could do a sandy/rock version instead? let me know if you are interested.



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PostPosted: 11-24-2009 02:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sock,
thank you to letting me use your greenery. Looking at the POM source files I was very much surprised how you were able to make those "leaves" / "bushes" look good while still using such low-poly patches. Very neat. I'll probably have some questions once I start using your shaders.

One thing I noted you use the command "_remap" on the ASE models. It seems you can re-texture ASE model on the fly? That is something very interesting - if so. Presently I have over 10 crate ASE models, they only vary for the textures, not the "box" brush itself (though the boxes use *2* textures).

sock wrote:
If you are still want to use a winter skybox I recently merged an old one of mine with a Hipshot cloudy one. It is a lot better than the one you are currently using but it still odd for your current map. I could do a sandy/rock version instead? let me know if you are interested.

Jo, the only nice things about "my" current skybox is the blue sky and the light. The ice theme is completely off. Will take a closer look at your skybox version. Even though sandy/rock would be better, I'm actually trying to find something like jungle... or abundant greenery. The idea would be the map is places somewhere in the tropics, thus all the erosion and the intrusion of plants in the map.

I am still wondering if it would be possible to take a set of panoramic screenshot in FarCry (i.e. in my jungle-themed AEcanyon), and stitch those together into one env-box. The floor would not really be very important, and the sky could probably be patched together. Trouble is I never tried creating a skybox before.

Anyway, thanks... will start adding your plants to the map, and post some shots... I am really looking forward to seeing some plant life in the map. Those "unseen before" plant textures may turn out to be nifty :).




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PostPosted: 11-24-2009 02:48 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


sock, you should come on irc sometimes, im mapping again!




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I'm the dude!
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PostPosted: 11-24-2009 06:37 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


What server/channel are you guys on?



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PostPosted: 11-25-2009 10:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Added the tree and some vines to the map (from Sock's POM):

    Image

Lighting needs more work on the trees alas. Presently vertex lit.

Sock,
about your vine shader:

Code:
textures/aedm7/pom_vine06      // Dangling from ceiling edges
{
   qer_editorimage textures/aedm7/pom_vine06.tga
   qer_trans 0.99
    // Does not do anything it seems!
   q3map_backShader textures/aedm7/pom_vine06_back
   q3map_vertexScale 2
   qer_alphafunc greater 0.5
   surfaceparm alphashadow
   surfaceparm trans
   surfaceparm nonsolid
   surfaceparm nomarks
   cull none               // Need to see both sides!
   {
      map textures/aedm7/pom_vine06.tga
      rgbGen vertex
      depthWrite
      alphaFunc GE128
   }
}

textures/aedm7/pom_vine06_back
{
   surfaceparm trans
   surfaceparm nonsolid
   surfaceparm nomarks
   {
      map textures/aedm7/pom_vine06.tga
      rgbGen const ( 0.2 0.2 0.2 )
      alphaFunc GE128
   }
}

The way you use them in your map you probably do not *need* to see the other side of the vine textures (shader). I had to add a cull none, to make them visible from both sides. I don't understand what pom_vine06_back is used for in this context though, since in-game I see no difference with or without the shader.




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The Illuminated
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PostPosted: 11-25-2009 11:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quote:
The way you use them in your map you probably do not *need* to see the other side of the vine textures (shader).


The back face is a hack to make sure the vines are nice and dark on the back side because they were next to stone walls. If you hang the vines from free standing objects, yes you don't need the backface. Lighting vertex lit models is a huge pain in the arse and you will soon discover this because q3map2 has a habit of making one side of vertex lit polys completely black and then you got to add extra small light entities everywhere to correct the problem.

On a side note if you are going for the greenery route for this map you will need to at some point venture into floor terrain blending because tree's generally don't look good surrounded by concrete. A prime candidate for mud/rock is the lower floor, it will also gives you a good reason to push some of the crates into the ground a bit. (sinking in the mud) I also recommend you add some plants or bunches of plant leaves high up, like the hanging gardens of babylon so it feels more organic above the vines.



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PostPosted: 11-25-2009 11:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Good ideas... been thinking about those things as well. For now I can avoid terrain blending by "breaking" the floor tiles uncovering dirt (earth) below. Your smaller ferns will be showing all over the pace, even in a few indoor area with open sky above them.

The greenery "up there", yes, that would really look nice. I am presently trying to find out how to make the "jungle" out there invade the outer walls of the map convincingly. A "lame" way - that would look good though - would be to copy/paste some of your stone brushwork with greenery on them and place it behind all the walls giving the outdoor areas more depth plus a jungle backdrop. But copying your brushwork would be very un-nifty on my part, but I may be able to create a few low-poly rock faces myself.

Ironically a skybox derived from a panoramic view shot made *in* POM would create a quite fitting skybox texture. That would then be merged with some blue cloudy sky, like the present skybox. Hmm... maybe.


About the _back shader... I had though this is what you were doing, only for me it does not seem to do anything. In POM it seems to work. Will look into this some more.




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PostPosted: 11-25-2009 11:55 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The trick is using q3map_cloneShader to create a second shader on the backface (q3map_invert) that takes a different lightmap. Probably can be modified for vertex lit objects as well.

Code:
// Grate 02
textures/obsidian_blastburn_grates/grate02
{
   q3map_cloneShader textures/obsidian_blastburn_zero/grate02_back
   surfaceparm alphashadow
   surfaceparm metalsteps
   surfaceparm nomarks
   surfaceparm trans
   qer_alphaFunc gequal 0.5
   {
      map textures/obsidian_blastburn_grates/grate02.tga
      alphaFunc GE128
      depthWrite
   }
   {
      map $lightmap
      blendFunc filter
      depthFunc equal
      rgbGen identity
   }
}

// Grate 02 backface
textures/obsidian_blastburn_zero/grate02_back
{
   q3map_invert
   surfaceparm alphashadow
   surfaceparm metalsteps
   surfaceparm nomarks
   surfaceparm trans
   qer_alphaFunc gequal 0.5
   {
      map textures/obsidian_blastburn_grates/grate02.tga
      alphaFunc GE128
      depthWrite
   }
   {
      map $lightmap
      blendFunc filter
      depthFunc equal
      rgbGen identity
   }
}



BTW sock, qer_trans does two different things depending on which version of the editor you are using...

GtkRadiant 1.4.0:
  • qer_trans
    • texture with no alpha channel: % transparency.
    • texture with alpha channel: alpha tested, alpha'ed parts are 100% transparent if value is less than 1, non-alpha'ed parts are transparent by value. (setting a value of 0.99 makes the non-alpha bits almost opaque, but alpha bits are transparent).
  • qer_alphaFunc: does not work.

GtkRadiant 1.5.0:
  • qer_trans: controls entire surface transparency.
  • qer_alphaFunc gequal 0.5: alpha tests editor image (makes alpha'ed bits 100% transparent leaving the rest opaque).



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The Illuminated
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PostPosted: 11-25-2009 12:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quote:
brushwork with greenery on them and place it behind all the walls giving the outdoor areas more depth plus a jungle backdrop


Sounds like an awesome idea, easy and quick to create. If you look at the Pom source map file you will notice there is a strange collections of caulk brushes that are like vertical slices of wall. These are the brushwork templates that were used to create all the rockwork. Pick a template and then follow this tutorial. You will be making rock walls bulging through concrete sections in no time. Once you are finished with the brush movement, just clip the bottom brushes flat and it is done. Also vertical stuff alpha blended is very cool. You could blend the rock to greenery for the top so that it will blend into a skybox easier.

Have you thought about creating a skybox portal? create some low poly brushwork terrain, plant some flat brushwork tree's in the distance and it will be fine as border stuff over the edges of the map. Also create some high rock blocks in the middle ground between skybox and map and stick some ferns over them.



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PostPosted: 11-25-2009 12:27 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Since the r_speeds are under 7k even *with* the tree models in the map, a skyportal could very well be an option. I had noted your "template wall parts" outside the map. Something like a ringwall, with a few higher rock formations with some plants for the portal could turn out to be nifty. I am still a bit hesitant, because Hipshot's Solar had such a skyportal, and that really impacted the FPS. One idea to *really* save tris would be to take screenshots of the tree, and paste that into the skyportal as "flat" tree decoration. I wonder if there are any jungle tree "spite" textures out there, that way I could actually make the jungle "look" lush. (If that was permissible those in FarCry would have been ideal, only that is not an option alas.)

Are there any good tutorials on skyportals? And on terrain blending?

Will read your tutorial on creating "rock corridors".




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PostPosted: 11-27-2009 11:42 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sock,
followed your suggestion about "sinking" crates in "mud" (that gives those crates a really creepy feel). Do not really need to use that many ASE models and textures, surprisingly. Using your "glossy" leaves as waterlilies on all the water surfaces.

    Image

Still need to tweak the lighting on the vertex lit plants though. The above was a test compile to make sure using GTKradiant v1.4 and all the models did not actually break the compile in some way. Everything still seems to work.

Would it be "bad" to actually lightmap all the plants?




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 11-27-2009 09:42 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I can't remember, wasn't there a forest env in one of the burial grounds map packs? Search on LvL maybe.

Looks great btw, I'd put even more time into what you're doing now. Maybe even dirty up some of the textures if possible b/c some of them look a little clean given the new setting.




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PostPosted: 11-28-2009 04:45 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Pat,
thanks for the tip. Using the new forest skybox now (from Burial Grounds Map Pak II; bgmp8; skybox created by Mighty Pete), fits perfectly, the new more "up in the sky" sun also casts much more interesting shadows indoors.

    Image
    (Skybox in shot does not look that bad because my in-game 1680x1050 screenshot was scaled down to 640x)

There is only one issue that hopefully a texture artist will be able to improve on. The original texture is 512x512, now it was either scaled up from 256x256 and/or saved at a far to low JPG compression value (50% or worse). The present .tga must have been created from the JPG images, thus show JPG compression artifacts.


I did this to the original images: Magic Wand the sky (Tolerance 50, AA, Contiguous), Despeckle sky selection, Invert Selection, Unsharp Mask non-sky. Removes most JPG artifacts, plus sharpens the landscape a bit.

I am hoping an artist can somehow further improve the skybox images with a few "clever" tricks I am not aware of. Thanks.




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Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 11-29-2009 12:19 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Started to experiment with brush rocks (lots of edge dragging). The rocks look relatively nice, though I am finding out you have to customize your rocks, to make them actually stand out in the map where folks will notice them. The present rock wall is simply to high up.

    Image

I'll probably completely replace those outer walls with rock that was "conveniently" carved to fit with the architecture. The back wall here will also have a gate (Tabun's DOOM doors), because I always wondered how all those crates actually made it *into* the base.

Should read Sock's tutorial on rock creation to get the most out of this technique.




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Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 12-01-2009 02:41 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Edge editing a rock template replacing the crete walls will a rock formation is *way* too much fun... I have the suspicion I may have to redo it with a less complex template to save some triangles.

Anyway the Quad arena will probably be turned into a cave with "windows" cut into it. Those windows will be quite interesting to accomplish using several wall rock. And a few other walls will also have protruding rocks. They simply look too cool not to use them all over the place. Between the rock walls and my paths the free space will be used to plant some plants... "may the r_speeds stay with me".




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\kill
\kill
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 913
PostPosted: 12-01-2009 07:49 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You're gonna have to tell Tigger-On to review this map..since it's kind of like a milestone map persay, like pom and several other maps. It looks amazing and original. I was amazed with Qfraggel's new map, and I didn't expect to be seeing something at that level coming out so soon. :D It comes a long ways from aedesert..Very Cool! Quite amazing when a mapper makes something that is worth money(imo) for free.
I'm not trying to kiss ass :paranoid: I just get excited..I can't wait to play it.




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Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 490
PostPosted: 12-01-2009 07:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah I also have to say there is just something about this map that makes me very excited to play it. That almost never happens :).




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