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Topic: Re: AEdm7 - Beta 3 - d/l (update test)

AEon
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Posted: 01-13-2010 03:05 PM

If that is the only question I seem to be off the hook... that's a LMB-drag bug ... no idea why I created and forgot to delete that brush.

Something I am thinking of trying out is this: When you walk the corridor with the MH, on the opposite end there is a closed gate. Since I closed off the gate up were the GL1 is, I was thinking of connecting the lower gate with a JP exiting behind (other side of closed off gate in GL1 room), adding a passage to that corridor up there (SG1 to GL2). Might be interesting gameplay-wise.

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Pat Howard
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 494

Posted: 01-13-2010 05:21 PM

Hey, I played a couple games this morning. You've really gotten this map playing a lot faster! I have just a few gameplay ideas to jot down here.

Item Placement:

OK, I think you have the opportunity with a little item reworking to give each significant area it's own distinct purpose.

RL arenas: You have YAs here. That's good. Decent power, balanced, they should stay.

PG cave: I think if you want players to take this third arena seriously then putting the QUAD there is a bad idea. Think about it, who would go out of their way to travel there simply hoping that the QUAD will spawn under their feet when they arrive? You need something powerful and reliable, so that going there is a consistently rewarding investment. Sounds like the RA to me.

RA hall: Now that you've closed this hall to the center this has become a very specialized path. Kind of a back door entry from one RL arena to the next. I think the MH is good here. Slightly longer respawn time, but powerful nonetheless, making this an interesting control point both strategically and item-wise. Just make sure you center it, (where the hall opens up slightly) which will balance it between the two bases.

GL center: Potentially a really cool control point but currently I don't have enough item incentive to stay there. Maybe the RG could go here (see path advice for what to put in its place). Also, load it up with ammo and throw in some health or armor shards. In a gametype like TDM I bet you could imagine the kind of fights that would take place in here. One guy camps, another guy from the other team swoops in from one of the upper platforms raining rockets from above.

Lower central tunnel: I think this is where the QUAD should be relocated. There's a lot of traffic in that hallway so anything you put there is gonna be a total crapshoot, and I've always thought if you're going to have a lucky pickup, it should be a powerup, because powerups are usually picked up by luck anyway.

Paths:

- OK, if you've followed the GL center suggestion you now have the RG in the center. The problem is we don't really have any items left to give the old RG hallway its incentive back. So what if you reopened the door behind the old position of the RG? This would connect the center area and the PG cave without actually creating a new entrance to the center and confusing things. Then get rid of the now redundant adjacent TP and voilà, the old RG hallway has purpose again! If you take my other advice, I really suggest you do this, otherwise you'll be left with at least one underpowered area AFAICT.

- Only one RL arena can TP to the other. This doesn't make much sense for TDM games. I think your map is well connected enough already. I'd lose it.

- I noticed you added a giant vent (at least I think it's new) with a path from the armor shard vent to the GL center area. It looks really awkward and I don't actually think that connection needs to be there. (People usually just run from end to end without stopping to take an alt. path.)

Hope that helps. I'd be really interested to test out some of those changes above (you'd barely have to rework anything structurally but they are potentially huge game changers). What do you think of all this?
-pat

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fKd
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Posted: 01-13-2010 07:03 PM

hay man cool work. 2 things.

1 r_showtris leak at this door. think the door might be a detail brush. could save lots a tris in this room i think....

2 would be cool if ya made it look like this crate had smashed through that ceiling glass.

looks cool so far man. not sure about those q4 textures tho... they look weird without bump/spec mapping imo. oh and use a custom music track. something which fits the theme better.

have not played a bot match yet. looking sweet so far

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cityy
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Posted: 01-13-2010 10:35 PM

Pat Howard wrote:
Lower central tunnel:[...]I've always thought if you're going to have a lucky pickup, it should be a powerup, because powerups are usually picked up by luck anyway.

I can't agree here The PU is one of the most important items in TDM and usually it is the most contested item.
Though I like all your other ideas Pat.

I wonder how you are going to turn the QUAD area into a cave. I think it is a nice idea, looking forward to it. Besides I can't say much - I like the map (:

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AEon
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Posted: 01-13-2010 11:48 PM

Pat Howard wrote:
- I noticed you added a giant vent (at least I think it's new) with a path from the armor shard vent to the GL center area. It looks really awkward and I don't actually think that connection needs to be there. (People usually just run from end to end without stopping to take an alt. path.)

Could you make a shot of this, I am not completely sure what you mean here. Thanks.

Noted the other ideas, will rethink them when back mapping.

fKd,
yo... that gate is a bit strange, it is structural, but did does not perfectly touch the floor it seems thus the vis leak. This area was about to be reworked, so adding the door was a temp test, that seems to be interesting though.

Interestingly, opening the RG door again, one could loose the GL1 area TP, and if one also removes the TP in the RL1 the map would not have any TPs at all ... I was never really happy with the TPs, may be a option to loose them completely. Hmmm...

BTW, how do you folks like the beams of light?

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Pat Howard
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009
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Posted: 01-14-2010 04:13 AM

cityy wrote:
I can't agree here The PU is one of the most important items in TDM and usually it is the most contested item.
Though I like all your other ideas Pat.

Perhaps you're right here. I was thinking more about FFA when I wrote this. There's always the option to move it in TDM games where it's more important.

AEon wrote:
Interestingly, opening the RG door again, one could loose the GL1 area TP, and if one also removes the TP in the RL1 the map would not have any TPs at all ... I was never really happy with the TPs, may be a option to loose them completely. Hmmm...

Yes, this is kind of what I was thinking too. While I do like the jump from the central to the back of the cave, this was the best thing I could think of as far as balancing items across all the areas goes. Maybe I'm just being narrow minded though. I'm sure there are more possibilities if you don't like this exact setup. One thing I'm sure about: the connection from the center to the cave (third arena) is a very important one.

AEon wrote:
BTW, how do you folks like the beams of light?

I know you spent a bit of time on them getting the shaders right and everything, but I must say I don't like the glass at all in this map. Considering how weathered everything else is, it just looks way too clean. It looks even more out of place when next to rock. Maybe it's just because I've seen this map go through so many changes, but the glass to me feels like something out of a past rendition. Maybe fencing instead? Or keep it but dirty it up a lot like sumatra did here.

Here's that vent I was talking about:

Has it always been there? Maybe I was just being braindead. This map is my Kryptonite.

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AEon
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Posted: 01-14-2010 07:28 AM

Pat Howard,
about the "vent"...

Ah... that square tube has been there a while, it is mainly meant as cover between RL2 and GL2, i.e. from the RG.

The metal "ledge" on the tube is just a fun shortcut, that folks can take if they need to be very fast. If most ignore it that is OK with me.

Yes, the glass is terrible. Good thing is, I primarily set it up for the toning down (absorption) of light on some of the floors, so any better more "dirty" texture on it is fine by me. Kazdm4 has pretty cool glass, but that would be a bit too "gritty"... the environment mapping on the glass may also be an issue, i.e. making it too glossy. Maybe Socks SP map will be out soon, and I can "borrow" his glass schmeil.

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cityy
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Posted: 01-14-2010 10:11 AM

Pat Howard wrote:
cityy wrote:
I can't agree here The PU is one of the most important items in TDM and usually it is the most contested item.
Though I like all your other ideas Pat.

Perhaps you're right here. I was thinking more about FFA when I wrote this. There's always the option to move it in TDM games where it's more important.

No, idea. I still think Quad is an advantage - also in FFA. You take it 2 times and get 15 frags where you normally get 5.

Pat Howard wrote:
I know you spent a bit of time on them getting the shaders right and everything, but I must say I don't like the glass at all in this map. Considering how weathered everything else is, it just looks way too clean.

Agree. I like the beams but I dont like the glass.

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cityy
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Posted: 03-04-2010 07:29 AM

Where did you go AEon?

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AEon
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Posted: 03-06-2010 10:17 AM

I seem to be dwindling... out... again...

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cityy
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Posted: 03-06-2010 10:37 AM

You are not allowed to!

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AEon
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Posted: 08-25-2011 05:22 AM

Starting editing on this map again. Found out that there are no hint brushes yet. Optimizing some ceiling clipping, trying to remember how the editor (GTKradiant v1.4) works. Probably be rebuilding one part of the map to add some more rock and plants (the RA area still needs some love), and hopefully after a last beta I can finally ship the sucker ...

I will reread the comments and feedback at some point to see what I want to do and what not, but presently I will just go in change what I feel needs changing, and see how that plays against bots.

For those interested here the old, still working download for beta 3:

Download:
map-aedm7_beta3.zip (10.1 MB, r234) @ hugelaser.com
(Install: Unpack the .zip into your baseq3\ folder, run the map via in-game skirmish button. The BSP is named aedm7.bsp.)

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EmeraldTiger
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Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 391

Posted: 08-25-2011 03:58 PM

Dang... that is gorgeous! I went through this thread looking at the progress shots (as I did not see it evolve real-time, since I was not around Q3W then) and I must say that the organic-tech theme is working beautifully, seems a lot better than the former arctic base aesthetic. I wish more arenas had this style - for some reason it feels so "comfy" and interesting to have a location set in the middle of a forest - a hint of civilization existing in the midst of the wild, so to speak.

Few things I found (haven`t tested with bots yet, just visual / technical things):

Pretty minor, although this is on the wall which players will be facing directly when they go for RA.

Seems odd that this 25+ health is "stuck" in the vegetation, and the model also goes "through" the plants which looks weird. Not to mention that in gameplay, being in a dead end and all the benefit that the 25+ offers, while it shouldn`t be underestimated, at the same time doesn`t need the risk of being backed up against a dead end IMO. The arrow (and my poorly drawn imitation of a health bubble ) shows my suggestions for what might be a better place to put it.

Found this in the quad cave.

Besides these minor issues, it`s fantastic! Glad that the concept was revived and I`d love to see it on Quake Live, or at least FragLove. Good luck! Your work is greatly appreciated!

(EDIT: Just realized that the "floatie" issue was already reported, so you probably have that on your to-do list already)

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AEon
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Posted: 08-25-2011 10:33 PM

EmeraldTiger,

Z-Fighting near RA: Strange... never noticed this, seems like I accidentally placed a brush here, weird. ... fixed.
25H: Good points, plant/item overlap, plus too much of a dead end trap, will be moving the health out.... fixed.
Floatie: Actually fixed that two days ago. Another one of these weird brush creations. Noted that I tend to left-click-drag when trying to actually 2D scroll (right-click-drag).

About the more organic theme. I also always seem to be happy running around the map, standing in the shade of the trees, especially in the LG arena. Planning to do something with that in the RA area, since that area is not visited that often. I want to add some plants and a rockface design here as well, much like in the PG "room". I might need to add some weapon here as well. Maybe a second PG. There is a gate that blocks off the path to the central upper area, I added it as a test, and that did force some interesting pathing, but I am not sure this really is the way to go.

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InsaneKid
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Posted: 08-26-2011 02:28 AM

i would "open" that closed door ...
its somehow an important connection.
maybe only for FFA ...

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AEon
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Posted: 08-26-2011 08:57 AM

The reason I closed it was mainly to test if the gameflow can work at all. And you it does mostly. I also wanted to cut down the line of sight at least in the middle upper area. But it turns out this is not really so important.

Biggest issue, IMO is to make the RA area more relevant to the map. Will see how that goes. The rest of the map should be pretty much done.

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fKd
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Posted: 08-26-2011 10:19 AM

sometimes you just gotta call it done and move on. would love to see ya working from something fresh. its one hell of a solid map man, but ya gotta be careful not to over think it.

2006-2011... i cant even imagine working on a map that long.

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fKd
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Posted: 08-26-2011 10:20 AM

in fact my entire q3 mapping effort only started in 2008.. hahhaha

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Silicone_Milk
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Posted: 08-26-2011 10:53 AM

I remember when this was first posted.

Has it really been that long?

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AEon
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Posted: 08-26-2011 10:39 PM

And I could never believe how folks could not finish a map, at a time when I was able to build aepyra and aetime in two weeks each. But the long process of working on aeneon (no longer like that map at all) gave me a hint. Alas I have these mapping frenzies, when I get something done, and then I simply cannot map (form of burnout)...

Well mostly I am happy that I still like playing this map. Played all my other almost done and old maps a few days ago, and most of them I did not really like playing. AEcantw2 should also still be a nice map to finish, liked playing it after all that time too. And SolarAE is still a great map (not really mine, it is Hipshot's, I just edited it into a slightly different layout).

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Fjoggs
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Posted: 08-27-2011 05:43 AM

All my maps takes this long.

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AEon
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Posted: 07-11-2012 08:52 AM

Well here goes again. Next attempt to finally finish the map off and release it. Presently still checking what version beta3 actually was. Ironic have to download the beta myself to check.

Playing the map some more I still want to add some rocks in the RA area, plus looking to change the location of the RG, tweak a very few things here and there. Yet again thinking of adding one more (a third) TP... not sure. Hopefully I can get all this done in a few days. There will probably be one last beta 4.

I am aware of things that could be improved theme-wise, things Sock suggested. But those would have me work on something I am not really good at (realism), plus I do not thing the map needs.

Update: Just noted that beta3 did not have the tube-bridge and the changed door layout (closed one opened another). So beta 4 will have several interesting changes when done.

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AEon
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Posted: 07-12-2012 08:11 AM

AEdm7 - AEon's DM 7 Redux - r250 (Final) Beta 4

Changes (done in only two days... sigh):
The RA area now also features some rock and plants.
One door RL Arena in RA room closed the another one opened instead.
Moved the RG to the RA room, improved overall bot behaviour.
RL Arena layout changed to now feature a "pipe bridge".
Switched the SG and the LH overlooking the LG Arena.
Location markers for Team Arena added, and colour-coded.
Map has hint brushes, max. r_speeds around 10K or mostly below.
A few design tweaks here and there.
Added some more clipping.
Fixed bugs reported for beta 3.
Updated the .txt file to the map.

Download:
map-aedm7_beta4_r250.zip (10.3 MB) @ hugelaser.com
(Install: Unpack the .zip into your baseq3\ folder, run the map via multiplayer menu, create button. The BSP is named aedm7.bsp.)

Feedback:
Team Arena map tags available, please check if they work for you.
Anything else you might notice.

The overall build time spread out over more than 6 years... sigh. Thanks for any suggestions.

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Pat Howard
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Posted: 07-15-2012 07:48 PM

good to see you back around here.

it looks great. now release it .

(maybe consider replacing the glass shader with something dirtier.)

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AEon
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Posted: 07-15-2012 11:44 PM

Alas... I'd need a working example "dirty glass" texture + shader to replace the present one. Being out of mapping for so much time, I really have trouble finding something better... suggestions appreciated.

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cityy
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Posted: 07-16-2012 03:16 AM

Look at sock's The Edge Of Forever.

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AEon
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Posted: 07-16-2012 05:18 AM

Added Sock's glass... looks a lot better now... used, dirtied and scratched... the shards on the floor look a lot better as well.

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AEon
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Posted: 07-17-2012 01:29 PM

Using Sock's glass from "The Edge of Forever" (had to change the original shader a bit though). Ironically the only HD texture in the distribution.

(Lol... just noted the HUD is clean, but for once I used the game's screenshot function, so the FRAPs framerate is visible.)

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AEon
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Posted: 07-20-2012 08:20 AM

AEdm7 - AEon's DM 7 Redux - r252 (Final)

Changes (since beta 4):
Weapon clipped all windows.
Fixed a LG Arena JP for bots.
Tweaked light a bit.
Added Sock's "golden" scratched glass from The Edge of Forever.

Download:
map-aedm7.zip (10.8 MB) @ hugelaser.com
(Install: Unpack the .zip into your baseq3\ folder, run the map via multiplayer menu, create button. The BSP is named aedm7.bsp.)

Pretty anticlimactic after all these many years. Again thanks to everyone here supporting the map. Just noted that AEneon is 9 years old... sigh.

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fKd
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Posted: 07-22-2012 12:58 AM

grats man, top effort

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AEon
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Posted: 07-22-2012 01:13 AM

Thanks

And if anyone is wondering, no I don't care about issues, and I don't want to know. I want to keep my delusions that things are OK

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EmeraldTiger
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Posted: 07-22-2012 02:32 AM

Congratulations on the release. I should take a look at the final version later on once I get the chance.

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cityy
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Posted: 07-22-2012 07:52 AM

Reviewed.

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AEon
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Posted: 07-22-2012 12:17 PM

cityy wrote:
Reviewed.

Much appreciated, thanks.

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v1l3
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Posted: 07-24-2012 09:42 AM

I've always loved this map.

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Where did you go AEon?

I seem to be dwindling... out... again...

You are not allowed to!

i would "open" that closed door ...its somehow an important connection.maybe only for FFA ...

sometimes you just gotta call it done and move on. would love to see ya working from something fresh. its one hell of a solid map man, but ya gotta be careful not to over think it. 2006-2011... i cant even imagine working on a map that long.

in fact my entire q3 mapping effort only started in 2008.. hahhaha

I remember when this was first posted. Has it really been that long?

All my maps takes this long.

good to see you back around here.it looks great. now release it .(maybe consider replacing the glass shader with something dirtier.)

Alas... I'd need a working example "dirty glass" texture + shader to replace the present one. Being out of mapping for so much time, I really have trouble finding something better... suggestions appreciated.

Look at sock's The Edge Of Forever.

Added Sock's glass... looks a lot better now... used, dirtied and scratched... the shards on the floor look a lot better as well.

Using Sock's glass from "The Edge of Forever" (had to change the original shader a bit though). Ironically the only HD texture in the distribution.(Lol... just noted the HUD is clean, but for once I used the game's screenshot function, so the FRAPs framerate is visible.)

grats man, top effort

Thanks And if anyone is wondering, no I don't care about issues, and I don't want to know. I want to keep my delusions that things are OK

Congratulations on the release. I should take a look at the final version later on once I get the chance.

Reviewed.

cityy wrote:Reviewed. Much appreciated, thanks.

I've always loved this map.

i would "open" that closed door ...
its somehow an important connection.
maybe only for FFA ...

sometimes you just gotta call it done and move on. would love to see ya working from something fresh. its one hell of a solid map man, but ya gotta be careful not to over think it.

2006-2011... i cant even imagine working on a map that long.

I remember when this was first posted.

Has it really been that long?

good to see you back around here.

it looks great. now release it .

(maybe consider replacing the glass shader with something dirtier.)

Using Sock's glass from "The Edge of Forever" (had to change the original shader a bit though). Ironically the only HD texture in the distribution.

(Lol... just noted the HUD is clean, but for once I used the game's screenshot function, so the FRAPs framerate is visible.)

Thanks

And if anyone is wondering, no I don't care about issues, and I don't want to know. I want to keep my delusions that things are OK

cityy wrote:
Reviewed.

Much appreciated, thanks.