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Topic: Re: q3dmp11 - tech edge

phantazm11
Insane Quaker

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 362

Posted: 07-25-2009 10:37 AM

Now we're talking. Looking freaking awesome fkd!

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sock
The Illuminated

Joined: 08 Sep 2000
Posts: 1085

Posted: 07-26-2009 01:30 AM

obsidian wrote:
It looks like you need some sort of weight or something on the other side of that crane to counteract the weight of the crane arm and load..

Your work looks amazing and the depth of detail is fantastic, especially the new bay window and loading bay. I would strongly suggest you photo source a crane for the architectural shape (like obsidian mentioned) so you can get the right balance. I am not suggesting go total realism, but just gently hint it and the viewer/player will fill in the rest of the gaps for you.

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 07-26-2009 04:28 AM

will do, working on it now

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 07-26-2009 04:47 PM

haha much better

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Hipshot
This is not Æon!

Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2222

Posted: 07-29-2009 12:58 AM

Should I download the latest or is there a new version coming rather soon? Would like to give feedback that isn't already fixed =)

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 07-29-2009 01:57 AM

new version coming soon

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 08-01-2009 06:06 AM

ding ding update. ok have at it r_speeds are high... its the nature of the level, i've sure most of you have nice shiny computers.. god im sick of working on a lap top lol

Last edited by fKd on 08-01-2009 10:39 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Inition
Gibblet

Joined: 21 Jan 2002
Posts: 23

Posted: 08-01-2009 06:44 AM

Wow, I love it! I just did a bot match, didn't see any huge errors. I love the colors and brushwork. The stairs & walls = genius.

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Mr dk
Gibblet

Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 13

Posted: 08-01-2009 07:23 PM

Holy crap! Impressive stuff.
Couple of little observations:
Firstly I have missing textures, the bevel ceiling around the rail gun area.

Secondly, I know this has been said before, the dripping water. It's a bit regulary and linear. May be use particles? I know Q3 doesn't support them, but it can be faked, I've done it with bubbles and snow flakes before. Just might be able to get some more variation in the drips. Some ripples as the drips hit would be cool too.

If you spectate in the GL room you can get just high enough to see the caulked top of the area that hosts the GL.

I know this would probably screw up the playability of the map, but a control panel where you could move something on the crane would be really nice

Frame rate for me was pretty good. At worst around the 200 mark. With that much detail r_speeds are always going to be an issue I guess, if it was me I wouldn't worry about it.

Finally...just what a brilliant effort, hugely impressive.

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 08-01-2009 07:50 PM

thanks so much i'll fix up the clip and look into particles for the drips. cheers for the kind words

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 08-01-2009 10:38 PM

fixed

http://www.filefront.com/14177391/q3dmp11.zip

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obsidian
I'm the dude!

Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 08-02-2009 06:23 AM

$NulL's new Particle Studio:

http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37893

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Mr dk
Gibblet

Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 13

Posted: 08-02-2009 06:59 AM

Thats the one! Forgot what it was called.

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sock
The Illuminated

Joined: 08 Sep 2000
Posts: 1085

Posted: 08-02-2009 09:52 AM

fKd wrote:
fixed http://www.filefront.com/14177391/q3dmp11.zip

I tried to download this and the pk3 was corrupt, will have to try again tomorrow.

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 08-02-2009 01:00 PM

very odd.. i just d/l'ed the map and it was fine... ummmm anyone else got this problem?

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monaster
The Afflicted

Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 530

Posted: 08-02-2009 01:39 PM

Nope, works fine for me, although I too had a problem a few hours ago loading the website, but at a second attempt about 2 hours later it worked without any problems. Can now open the pk3, look at all the stuff inside, just didn't test it ingame.

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nitin77
Warrior

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 83

Posted: 08-03-2009 02:37 AM

this looks very nice fkd.

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sock
The Illuminated

Joined: 08 Sep 2000
Posts: 1085

Posted: 08-03-2009 10:57 AM

Ok, no worries, got a good zip file on the 3rd try. The map visually looks amazing but the gameplay is still strange and the ladders feel awkward especially the fact you fly up them so quick. (Personally I dont like them but others may think they are good) I like the new top area where the GL use to be and the gorgeous angled glass window next to the long JP. (I recommend you phong the glass, it has seams in the middle where you have angled designs) The extra route to the corner with the Medikit is bad because it blocks the lower ramp jump route, I recommend you try this map in CPMA at least to see where you can add/improve routes, especially double/ramp jumps.

I still don't get how you are lighting this map, there is still a lot shader light fixtures all over the place, some of the walls feel really crowded. Are you using any point/spot lights at all? I don't get the feeling of any 'hot' light anywhere, the lighting mostly feels uniform and flat. One area which I do feel is good is the new route to the RG, its darker, moody, has nice shadows on the walls and not saturated with many light sources. Maybe cut back on the shader lights and try spot lighting certain areas?

[crazy idea] The big room with the central platform and GL in the middle feels like it should be a rocket, maybe with a grate ramp to it instead of a solid walkway. Add wires to open panels on the side of the rocket, have huge cones on the bottom of the rocket with a pit below for the exhaust to go. Have some smoke particles coming down from the cones, like the rocket is ready to launch or something. The inside could be where the cockpit is (vertical design) and have vents or doors on either side so multiple routes in.[/crazy idea]

You seriously need to fix the readme file, lots of people will check the file and it is full of errors, like for example 'Sock : Rock Texture', what rock textures!?! I know its annoying to keep the file up to date, especially if you release alot of beta maps but you got to fix it, otherwise people wonder if it is the most recent version or not.

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Hipshot
This is not Æon!

Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2222

Posted: 08-04-2009 05:54 PM

Fkd, as I see it you have huge problems with the clipping. You should seriously do something about it, honestly, it's like playing Unreal 2003/2004/3 - to much detail that isn't optimized for a smooth gameflow. I was going to make a bunch of screens as with your last level, but it is just too much to screen every clipping error.

You know, No one's mad or anything since before, so you don't have to apologize for anything in the readme.

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 08-04-2009 06:53 PM

how about ppl just dont run into walls and shit? ack clipping ack i did not think it was that bad... oh well. on it

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Hipshot
This is not Æon!

Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2222

Posted: 08-05-2009 12:39 PM

Haha, well, the quality difference of a map that is clipped good and bad is pretty obvious =) It has all to do with the game flow, if this would have been a map for swat or raven shield I would not have bothered.

And, if you think about this from the beginning then it's easier. I bet it will be a pain in the ass to replace all the small lights with .ase versions now, or make passable brush based versions.

If you spend a couple days extra on just these things that isn't "visible" in the same way you will increase the level quality a lot.

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Pat Howard
Insane Quaker

Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 494

Posted: 08-05-2009 08:25 PM

Hello again fKd,

I've been following this map for some time now and, despite being really impressed, I've been pretty quiet around the forums. I guess the reason for this is so many people have already suggested so much that I feel like I'd just be contributing more "noise".

IDK about you, but something strikes me as wrong when a map goes through this many stages. I think the problem here is this map's texturing and lighting is too inconsistent for anyone to offer specific suggestions that do anything more than refine one of this maps many mini-themes. While these suggestions make individual areas more unique and interesting, they also work against you, pulling the map apart more and more until someone finally suggests a complete thematic overhaul and you feel like you're running in circles.

I think the source of this problem is how many different colors you are using. You've got all different colored clean metals everywhere PLUS some dark gritty ones too. Some rooms in the map have all white lights, others all red, and sometimes even all green. Factor in the colored glass and busy shaders and you can see how confusing everything is when taken in at once. Some areas even have their own individual atmospheres. The rail gun section, (even though it looks amazing) feels like it's part of a completely different map. I'm not knocking the quality of your work here, just the lack of focus.

I'd love to know how the development process of this map has felt on your end. It seems like it has been pretty hectic to me and that's what inspired this post. Correct me if you don't think what I'm saying is true, because I hate to be so negative. But if you do think what I'm saying has some value than my advice to you is to stop adding and simplify. I wouldn't delete any of the brushwork - it's all great, but I would probably halve the amount of textures you're using. Try to stick with fewer colors and materials. Lose the colder, darker metals because they look totally out of place next to the warmer more colorful ones. Also get rid of some of the flashy shaders that dominate the scene. Also, stick with one or maybe two different lights. Finally, try to light the whole map in a similar fashion. I have found that having a system is absolutely key when lighting a map. Aftwerwards you can mess with light values in the areas you want to be lighter/darker.

Let me know what you think. As the king of never finishing anything I always hate to see other mappers spend their whole lives in the beta section.
-Pat

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 08-05-2009 10:11 PM

i dont think there is anything wrong with a long build time. and using the community for feedback and advice is key imho to developing a better level and better building methods. also helps to develop a tougher skin. ( i just hope they dont get sick of me lol )

i like the lighting colour variation. it helps to generate multiple atmospheres.
but i am working on making it more simple by using less lights but with more power.. like from 10k lights to 20. plus im gonna do more stylistic light angles to get the detail popping more.
flashy shaders? what? i was thinking this map was quite simple of the shaders front...

but anyway. im gonna try look at this level from a different perspective.. wheres my wine

ps good to see ya over here

Last edited by fKd on 08-05-2009 10:15 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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v1l3
\kill

$\kill$

Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 947

Posted: 08-05-2009 10:14 PM

This map is pretty Hardcore man..it puts alot of maps to shame, very nice! ..though it is officially the first Q3 map that is unplayable on my system with r_speeds and all, but with all of the detail how could it not be. I have a 3500+ AMD Athlon..to beat anyone to that question. It's nice to see great Q3A maps being made, LONG LIVE Q3A!!! Keep it up man

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maz0r
Veteran

Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 168

Posted: 08-06-2009 05:21 AM

v1l3 wrote:
[...]..though it is officially the first Q3 map that is unplayable on my system with r_speeds and all[...]

You havent played Hipshot's Industrial Techmap, have you?

Btw it's very nice how this place breathens again. Havent seen such a frequented beta thread for a long time. Keep up the good work, fkd. Will try to check your map asap, no access to quake and little spare time barred me from doing it earlier.

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Pat Howard
Insane Quaker

Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 494

Posted: 08-06-2009 12:53 PM

The fact that you're still going strong with this map is a relief. Based on how many changes have been made here I assumed that you'd be pulling your hair out by now. You seem to be a pretty motivated guy; I know if I had to do as much brushwork as you have on this map my head would explode. Anyway, that's why I was trying to give you some simplifying advice.

As for the color variations, I guess this is just a matter of preference. I went back and re-read a bunch of comments and saw sock was saying some of the same things I was, so at least I know I'm not totally crazy. If you think it's cool, go for it.

I think some dramatic lighting angles will look really cool with all that detail, so I'm eager to see how you go about that.

Oh yeah, and the flashy shaders, I was mostly thinking about the purple light beams as you go up the bouncers. Not too big of a deal I guess.

One thing I forgot to mention last time was how amazing that loading bay looks. The setting makes so much more sense now. Before you had rocks everywhere and I was like, "What!? How did those get 30k feet up in the air?"

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v1l3
\kill

$\kill$

Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 947

Posted: 08-06-2009 05:32 PM

maz0r wrote:
You havent played Hipshot's Industrial Techmap, have you?

Yeah..I have it, it isn't bad if I don't add to many bots. If I turn my head on this one though, I get a bit of lag from just that. There are spots in the map that aren't terrible, but it is definitely different as to where you are in the map. I can use it for a tourney. I don't want to complain though..I know I don't have the most up to date machine.

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AEon
Boink!

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493

Posted: 08-13-2009 12:56 PM

Hmm... where exactly is the download link to the beta map? The detailed feedback seems to suggest there is one.

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Hipshot
This is not Æon!

Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2222

Posted: 08-13-2009 02:11 PM

http://www.filefront.com/14177391/q3dmp11.zip

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AEon
Boink!

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493

Posted: 08-14-2009 02:13 AM

It also reminded me of the sort of detail you see in UT2004 maps... amazing amount of variation, but the gameflow "feels" right for the most part. Fun map. Luckily I'll never even try to get that level of detail into a map

Update: Is there still interest in detailed feedback or is the map pretty much final?

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sir_vival
Trainee

Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 45

Posted: 08-14-2009 02:59 PM

. . .can I has beta?

edit: nvm. . .didn't see pages. . .I can has beta!

edit: uhhhh. . .I downloaded and put in baseq3. . .didn't load for me. . .shows up in my map list though -shrugs-

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AEon
Boink!

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493

Posted: 08-14-2009 04:10 PM

fKd,
I hope I am not too late for any of this. Here some possibly constructive suggestions of things I noted looking at your map.

a) The map is very realistic in its texture choice. These very abstract respawn points, though I really like them (for abstract maps), here you may want to think of adding some special techy brushwork (though that will cost a lot more tris than 4).

b) Found some sparklies.

c) Outside the window these 2-3 textures can never be seen, so you might want to also caulk them, to save a few tris.

d) More sparklies.

e) For some reason the texture under the JP looks especially blurry and lo-res. Not sure if this can be fixed. Note all your square lights in the map (those one gets blocked by when moving along the wall), have an even bigger issue concerning blurriness.

f) One of the few ledges that could be a bit wider, IMO. I checked with noclip, you can make that ledge wider, moving that wall a bit.

a) Stair needs clipping. When you run up on the left you actually get stuck under the stairs above.

b) Here under these stairs you also can get stuck, on both sides.

c) These are the small blurry lights I meant earlier. You will probably need to clip them off, to avoid the player getting blocked in movement by them.

d) These "sun shades" seem to be built up of patches. The brown sides do not align properly, letting you look trough some of the edges. You'll probably need to re-align them on a fine grid.

e) Another area where the ledge could possibly - just a feeling - be made wider to avoid that extra camped feeling when trying to climb the ladder on the side of that platform.

f) Corner looks a bit empty, maybe place something there?

a) Might be a good idea to use a striped texture to mark off the "danger" of waking into the water.

b) For consistency the ReGen could use a respawn indicator - the blue one used for the MH should be fine. Note: The YAs (Yellow Armors) really could use yellow respawn point indicators, IMO.

c) Running along the wall on these stairs will get you stuck, needs clipping.

d) The sides of these stairs could also use generous clipping.

e) These must be the most awesome stairs I have ever seen in a map

f) The shader effects on the walls of the JP, IMO, should either be reduced (1 instead of 3 stripes) and/or toned down. Presently the are visually brutal on the eyes IMO.

a) I understand the decorational aspect of these edges, they are also a polygon hint to keep the player "from falling". But personally I'd either make them the same height as the floor, or halve the present height to make the edges less stand out (nitpicking, sorry, but that was something I visually stumbled on several times in the map, that is otherwise quite flawless).

b) The stairs leading to the LG (first collage, image a)), have some angled edge problem.

You are probably quite aware of this, but the map could probably use some more hint brushes to more aggressively optimize what polygons are show when running around in the map.

Hope this is of some use. The level of polygon detail in this map is simply amazing, I am very surprised that the map runs this well.

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fKd
Immortal

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2476

Posted: 08-14-2009 07:00 PM

wicked cheers for the help AEon. working on most of ya suggestions now. hope to almost have this map complete. ha i have not used any hint brushes so i better go find a tut on how they work.

thanks again everyone who took the time to look at this and give great feedback. very much appreciated

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AEon
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Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493

Posted: 08-15-2009 12:31 AM

I might be able to help with hint brushes, i.e. top-down view image with suggested brushes cutting through the map. From what I saw in the map, using:
Code:
bind ALT "toggle r_showtris"

q3map2 seems to be doing some clever things already, in some parts of the map you can see too much though. You have already done a very good job caulking all the dead faces from what I was looking into, so that already helped. Again I am amazed the map plays this fluidly as it is (meaning the very high level of detail, i.e. tris).

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obsidian
I'm the dude!

Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 08-15-2009 05:52 AM

fKd wrote:
ha i have not used any hint brushes so i better go find a tut on how they work.

Boink!

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Now we're talking. Looking freaking awesome fkd!

will do, working on it now

haha much better

Should I download the latest or is there a new version coming rather soon? Would like to give feedback that isn't already fixed =)

new version coming soon

ding ding update. ok have at it r_speeds are high... its the nature of the level, i've sure most of you have nice shiny computers.. god im sick of working on a lap top lol

Wow, I love it! I just did a bot match, didn't see any huge errors. I love the colors and brushwork. The stairs & walls = genius.

thanks so much i'll fix up the clip and look into particles for the drips. cheers for the kind words

fixedhttp://www.filefront.com/14177391/q3dmp11.zip

$NulL's new Particle Studio:http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37893

Thats the one! Forgot what it was called.

fKd wrote:fixed http://www.filefront.com/14177391/q3dmp11.zipI tried to download this and the pk3 was corrupt, will have to try again tomorrow.

very odd.. i just d/l'ed the map and it was fine... ummmm anyone else got this problem?

Nope, works fine for me, although I too had a problem a few hours ago loading the website, but at a second attempt about 2 hours later it worked without any problems. Can now open the pk3, look at all the stuff inside, just didn't test it ingame.

this looks very nice fkd.

how about ppl just dont run into walls and shit? ack clipping ack i did not think it was that bad... oh well. on it

Hmm... where exactly is the download link to the beta map? The detailed feedback seems to suggest there is one.

http://www.filefront.com/14177391/q3dmp11.zip

. . .can I has beta?edit: nvm. . .didn't see pages. . .I can has beta!edit: uhhhh. . .I downloaded and put in baseq3. . .didn't load for me. . .shows up in my map list though -shrugs-

wicked cheers for the help AEon. working on most of ya suggestions now. hope to almost have this map complete. ha i have not used any hint brushes so i better go find a tut on how they work. thanks again everyone who took the time to look at this and give great feedback. very much appreciated

fKd wrote:ha i have not used any hint brushes so i better go find a tut on how they work.Boink!

fixed

http://www.filefront.com/14177391/q3dmp11.zip

$NulL's new Particle Studio:

http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37893

fKd wrote:
fixed http://www.filefront.com/14177391/q3dmp11.zip

I tried to download this and the pk3 was corrupt, will have to try again tomorrow.

. . .can I has beta?

edit: nvm. . .didn't see pages. . .I can has beta!

edit: uhhhh. . .I downloaded and put in baseq3. . .didn't load for me. . .shows up in my map list though -shrugs-

wicked cheers for the help AEon. working on most of ya suggestions now. hope to almost have this map complete. ha i have not used any hint brushes so i better go find a tut on how they work.

thanks again everyone who took the time to look at this and give great feedback. very much appreciated

fKd wrote:
ha i have not used any hint brushes so i better go find a tut on how they work.

Boink!