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Topic: Teaching Level Design (Split)

Kaz
Señor Shambler

Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 849

Posted: 01-18-2010 12:24 PM

This is an interesting topic for me, actually, because I'm in the CS program at my university, and I've been working for one of the professors for a couple of years, and this semester I get to teach 4 freshmen students who're interested in "games" how to do stuff. I basically get an hour per week with them, and can yammer on about whatever I want, and I'm currently deciding how I'm going to handle it. So as a side topic (if you don't mind PatH, I can of course split this off): if you were in a position to teach others how to do Level Design or programming, or whatever, how would you approach it?

Generally the approach seems to be: convey the concepts and important ideas in an unfettered manner... that is to take care of details such as installing the editor and then maybe showing them how to build a box room and compile and such, so that their time is not wasted with trivial details.

My idea was to take a more laissez-faire approach, and attempt to replicate my own learning experience, and that of alot of people who frequent these and other forums; that is to introduce them to Q3, to Q3W and other editing resources, and try to teach them how to google or search the forums to answer questions and get started instead of just regurgitating how to do things from my brain. I think that teaching them how to learn on their own and exposing them to these resources will be useful long after I am gone, and it will help them none to just look to a single person for information.

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obsidian
I'm the dude!

Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 01-18-2010 12:29 PM

That's true too, in a more generalized program (programming, 3D Modelling, etc.), even if the game developing doesn't work out, you can still find work in another industry. Graduating from a game dev course, you're sticking all your eggs in one basket.

As far as hiring goes, I think companies will look at your total skill set, that may include courses/degrees, amateur design work, or anything else. It doesn't matter how you learned to do what you do, as long as you can show them that you are capable of producing solid work.

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spookmineer
The Afflicted

Joined: 29 Nov 2002
Posts: 622

Posted: 01-18-2010 03:41 PM

Kaz wrote:
I basically get an hour per week with them, and can yammer on about whatever I want, and I'm currently deciding how I'm going to handle it. So as a side topic (if you don't mind PatH, I can of course split this off): if you were in a position to teach others how to do Level Design or programming, or whatever, how would you approach it?

Generally the approach seems to be: convey the concepts and important ideas in an unfettered manner... that is to take care of details such as installing the editor and then maybe showing them how to build a box room and compile and such, so that their time is not wasted with trivial details.

My idea was to take a more laissez-faire approach, and attempt to replicate my own learning experience, and that of alot of people who frequent these and other forums; that is to introduce them to Q3, to Q3W and other editing resources, and try to teach them how to google or search the forums to answer questions and get started instead of just regurgitating how to do things from my brain. I think that teaching them how to learn on their own and exposing them to these resources will be useful long after I am gone, and it will help them none to just look to a single person for information.

If possible, and if these freshmen are serious enough, I'd just give them homework to get the concepts out of the way.

Find a tut how to install Radiant, then Bubba's for basic knowledge on how to use it, and straight after it Lunaran's for the concepts behind it.
Assuming they play games themselves, maybe let them play a few rounds of QuakeLive to get a feel for the specific game physics and how they interact with the design of the maps (CS will have different maps: why? is a good question - you need to know which game you are mapping for, you should at least have played it, or somewhat know how it's played). If they don't have gaming experience, or switching from another game is hard, a short movie may be enough.

The combination of Radiant/QL is interesting because you have the game and the editor at hand. Or maybe just 1 PC and projector, go into a map with extremely low settings (alpha-like) and discuss why the map is built the way it's built.
Personally I think game mechanics and gametype should dictate how a concept for a map is worked out, and you should have a clear idea of what the main characteristics of a map are before drawing the first brush.

Then maybe let them do a project where they can exchange questions etc during the hour (it should be very limited, maybe a 100 brush project and asking them to keep an eye on connectivity and vertical gameplay or whatever) on which they can critic eachother.

This way, hopefully you can get them to get acquainted with an editor pretty easily (Bubba's is easy to follow for your first box room), and you make them think about gameplay, which is the base. Hopefully at least 1 hour will have nothing to do with PC's and they're all sketching, in the end they will have made a map which is thought out.
I would've loved to have had lessons like that instead of reading every tut and thread for two years before something reasonable came out.

On the other hand, this may not at all what you're looking for...

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obsidian
I'm the dude!

Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 01-18-2010 04:41 PM

A few things assuming they will be working on a 3D FPS game and doing level design:

Tools: Editors, modelling programs, painting programs, etc. Installation, basic usage.

Level Design Concepts: wviperw's competitive design guide, Lunarans, etc. Understanding the basics of what makes good gameplay. Build some concepts and learning to gain feedback.

Technical Stuff: Advanced stuff that will need to be learned like doing certain effects, various optimizations, creating custom assets, and wrapping it all up into a polished product.

Programming would be very different and I'm not sure I could suggest how to teach such a course. I suppose lots of trying to work out gameplay mechanics and how to implement them along with lots of ways to optimize performance and learning how renderers work.

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Pat Howard
Insane Quaker

Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 494

Posted: 01-18-2010 08:36 PM

Thanks for the quick responses!

I used to see a lot of Guild Hall ads on various game-related websites but never looked into it until I randomly saw in Scythe's profile that he is a student there. I've been to their site a number of times and it looks like a pretty cool school, though I was turned off by the distance from home (NY) and the fact that they've only graduated a couple hundred students. Still looking into this one.

You guys have definitely solidified my views on all these cookie-cutter tech school game design degrees (obsidian, that animation is the best thing ever - he got an A!!!). I always had this antipathy towards them instinctively thinking it would be high school all over again, but of course you can't really be sure until you've spoken to people who have actually been through the programs.

--

Kaz, interesting... Level design is a really tricky thing to teach quickly because it's a hybrid. It's difficult to get all the skills (gameplay/visual/technical) to come together at the same time since they are hardly related. First off, I'd split this off into another thread to reduce confusion and get this topic the attention it deserves. That being said, my rough strategy would be something like this:

First, make sure they know what they're getting into. Make sure they know what a level designer does. I have no idea how advanced these students are, but if they're just learning then give them the basics of what makes up a game world (this is a texture, this is a model, this is a light, etc.).

Once that's all sorted out I'd get them straight into the editor. Teach them the basic tools of construction and have them make some rooms/hallways. The most important thing here is to keep their work tidy, otherwise they'll be completely overwhelmed with the complexity of their bigger projects. In these first few days you should also teach them how to ask questions at a forum, search Google for their error messages, and give them some reliable technical sources like Kat's site for when they inevitable run into problems on their own time.

Basically the point is to quickly make them independent when it comes to the more experience-based aspects of level design. Getting comfortable with the brushwork is something that has to be done on your own time. As long as they have a basic knowledge of the program and how/where to ask questions you can just give them editor-based homework while you spend more time in class discussing the more elusive aspects of level design (i.e. gameplay).

One note on the homework: Your students will be way, way more productive and successful with their first maps if you tell them to replicate something real. Tell them to recreate their dorm rooms with a few details. They'll learn about shape and form and everything else that comes along with trying to recreate the real world all while gaining confidence with the editor. Sure, they won't be learning about gameplay, but thats what class discussions are for. And trying to get them to do everything at once by creating a full, playable level will simply be asking too much.

As for the gameplay discussions, I'd use the Competitive Level Design Guide as a... guide . The best gametype for teaching gameplay concepts is definitely the Tourney mode. Teach them about each weapon's strengths/weaknesses. Go over the importance of armor and other power items and show how they create battles over control points leaving one player dominant and the other forced to recover. Download demos at Challenge TV and watch them together. Point out which player is winning and how he is able to control the important items as a result. You get the idea. Sounds like a lot of fun, I'd love to teach a level design class some day.

--

Thanks a million to everyone who has responded already. Looking forward to hearing how others feel about all this college stuff.
-pat

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obsidian
I'm the dude!

Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 01-18-2010 08:43 PM

Split this topic from here:
viewtopic.php?t=42512

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spookmineer
The Afflicted

Joined: 29 Nov 2002
Posts: 622

Posted: 01-19-2010 03:21 PM

Pat Howard wrote:
As for the gameplay discussions, I'd use the Competitive Level Design Guide as a... guide . The best gametype for teaching gameplay concepts is definitely the Tourney mode. Teach them about each weapon's strengths/weaknesses. Go over the importance of armor and other power items and show how they create battles over control points leaving one player dominant and the other forced to recover. Download demos at Challenge TV and watch them together. Point out which player is winning and how he is able to control the important items as a result. You get the idea. Sounds like a lot of fun, I'd love to teach a level design class some day.

Your post makes a lot of sense (especially, making sure they know what they're getting into, perhaps a short overview of the total course and what will be discussed), but I think the last bit is a bit too much...

If it's a level design course, it's too restricting to just focus on Q3/QL or CS or any other game. You have to make them aware of how gameplay influences map design decisions and vice versa, but analysing demos may be a bit too much (?) - it will focus on the gameplay more than the map.

The first part of the CPMA guide is very good (Lunaran's), but discussing specific maps will be very hard to comprehend for people who don't know the game (heads will spin if you show them CZM vs Cooller on Aero [2004])
You have to know there are different types of weapons, there are armour, spawn points, powerups etc but drifting towards that may turn into a course of gameplay strategy.
Once it gets to be game specific, it's not worth it spending too much time on it.

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wattro
Insane Quaker

Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 375

Posted: 01-19-2010 09:17 PM

I've interviewed game school grads and I have never hired anyone that was a game school graduate. I don't know if that's more to do with the quality of the schools nearby, but I've heard they are reputable.

I'd trade that experience for common sense, ability/desire to learn from/by yourself as well as others, and a good grasp of video games.

The problem I've always found is that these guys just aren't ready. They would fit sub-junior positions at best.

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Silicone_Milk
Immortal

Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 2205

Posted: 01-19-2010 09:19 PM

oh hey Wattro! Haven't seen you around lately. How've things been?

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Pat Howard
Insane Quaker

Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 494

Posted: 01-20-2010 01:00 PM

spookmineer wrote:
If it's a level design course, it's too restricting to just focus on Q3/QL or CS or any other game. You have to make them aware of how gameplay influences map design decisions and vice versa, but analysing demos may be a bit too much (?) - it will focus on the gameplay more than the map.

Yeah, you have a point. As of right now, Q3A is the only game I have mapped for, so you can see why I might be a little narrow-minded when it comes to the gameplay stuff.

Watching demos, playing other maps, reading the CPMA Guide - this is how I picked up my gameplay knowledge. It was natural to start out with a game I really liked. Now I feel confident that I can take what I've learned from Q3A and make a fairly smooth transition to other FPS games, especially arena style shooters. However, forcing students to study a specific game would definitely be unfair and possibly confusing as well ("Hey, is this a Q3A class or a level design class?").

That being said, I think it's important to narrow it down a little. A game like Modern Warfare 2 has completely different goals than Q3A, and trying to teach a "one size fits all" class could get a little sticky. Maybe you could teach the different FPS types in chapters. Each genre showcases a few classic maps and the most important level design concepts that apply. I think that would be cool.

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wattro
Insane Quaker

Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 375

Posted: 01-21-2010 01:09 AM

Silicone_Milk wrote:
oh hey Wattro! Haven't seen you around lately. How've things been?

Hey Milkman :P

I've been around, I just lurk from time to time. Super busy with work and deadlines galore coming up.

How aboot yourself?

/threadjack

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scythe
Commander

Joined: 25 Mar 2002
Posts: 120

Posted: 01-22-2010 09:53 PM

Pat Howard wrote:
Thanks for the quick responses!

I used to see a lot of Guild Hall ads on various game-related websites but never looked into it until I randomly saw in Scythe's profile that he is a student there. I've been to their site a number of times and it looks like a pretty cool school, though I was turned off by the distance from home (NY) and the fact that they've only graduated a couple hundred students. Still looking into this one.

You guys have definitely solidified my views on all these cookie-cutter tech school game design degrees (obsidian, that animation is the best thing ever - he got an A!!!). I always had this antipathy towards them instinctively thinking it would be high school all over again, but of course you can't really be sure until you've spoken to people who have actually been through the programs.
--
Thanks a million to everyone who has responded already. Looking forward to hearing how others feel about all this college stuff.
-pat

Heh, just read this thread. I was actually a student at the Guildhall back in 2004-05. Been working in the industry ever since. I can vouch for the Guildhall though, it is a good program. It's kind of a trial by fire where you're forced to learn to work in cross-disciplinary teams. You get exposed to a little programming, a little art, it's really a good primer for working in the industry. Of course, the networking is a big help too. Just being around so many like-minded people - and the Dallas gaming industry is heavily involved, at least it was when I was there. If nothing else, it gives you all the time you need to build a good portfolio. It is expensive though.

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Split this topic from here:viewtopic.php?t=42512

oh hey Wattro! Haven't seen you around lately. How've things been?

Silicone_Milk wrote:oh hey Wattro! Haven't seen you around lately. How've things been?Hey Milkman :PI've been around, I just lurk from time to time. Super busy with work and deadlines galore coming up. How aboot yourself?/threadjack

Split this topic from here:
viewtopic.php?t=42512

Silicone_Milk wrote:
oh hey Wattro! Haven't seen you around lately. How've things been?

Hey Milkman :P

I've been around, I just lurk from time to time. Super busy with work and deadlines galore coming up.

How aboot yourself?

/threadjack