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Topic Starter Topic: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5)

Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-14-2009 03:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


update:
Final sent off to lvlworld. Thanks all for your 2cts!

Download final: tabq1dm5.zip

New remake for Generations made it to "beta" status. As with the previous map (tabd2map01), there's a "pure" and a normal version. The pure version has Quake's (pretty much exact) item and floorplan layout, the default version has a totally different item layout and slightly tweaked geometry to make it play less awkwardly.

Screenshots









About the map

For those who didn't recognize it: this is a remake of Q1DM5, The Cistern. Not the most popular Quake map, but with some changes the remake shouldn't have to suffer the same problems. It's a fairly faithful take, so the layout won't be changed much. (don't mind the items in the screenshots, they were changed after making those..)

Download

tabq1dm5_beta2.zip (8 Mb)
Map name is "tabq1dm5" and "tabq1dm5_pure".

Any feedback is welcome. One thing to keep in mind: the "pure" version makes little sense and doesn't play well (outside of the Generations Arena mod). No worries there, it's there for nostalgia purists only.



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Last edited by Tabun on 10-28-2009 07:26 AM, edited 4 times in total.

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Immortal
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PostPosted: 10-14-2009 03:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


wow, thats looking amazing bro! good fucking work! will download when i get home from work, seriously! woah!!!




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Boink!
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PostPosted: 10-14-2009 11:41 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Very beautiful map. This is the way the map would have been made, if id had the idTech3 at the time :)... I also noted that you have quite an assortment of decals in this map... in-töres-ting :ninja:

The bots even go after the RA (saw Bones get it). Good use of "difficult" locations for powerful items, you need to swim to get the RA, you need to open a door to get the MH/RG. Awesome detail work, and very tasteful use of textures!




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I'm the dude!
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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 06:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The bottom floor with the LG is essentially a dead end if walking in from downstairs. I suggest you add a few broken bits by the pit on the end of the hallway (adjacent from the LG) or even a lift to provide an alternative way of hopping out and above.

Some of the textures (like the checkered tiles) have what looks like jpg compression artifacts, or over-sharpening or something. The wood trim has a black border around them that makes them look as if cel shaded. It doesn't look bad, except that only the wood trim has them, so it looks a bit out of place.

There are a few weird trim and detail bits that look out of place. I'll have to make a better note of where they all are, but one in particular is behind the main atrium, you have some pushed in bricks on one side and a weird trapezoid lump on the other side above the doorway. The lump looks out of place and isn't even centered over the door.

Other than that, great map. Like AEon, I liked the RA and MH locations.



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\kill
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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 03:23 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Very Nice Map! It's kind of funny how you just popped this up, as a guy just put up his own remake version of this map. It's in the map queue over at ..::LvL. His is named "minkdm5". It doesn't come anywhere near yours though.




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Lasery Roboty
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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 04:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Real nice, I especially dig the textures and the smooth arched ceilings.



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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 04:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for the (nice) comments so far, folks.

@v1l3: "Thomas Mink," who made that remake, is a beta-tester/regular at the Generations Arena forums. I knew he was working on it. He didn't want to go all the way, though, and preferred to make a quick version of it. It still was mostly a coincidence that we both remade dm5, though. ;]

@obsidian:
Good points all round.
I think I'll make a pile of rubble/bricks in the pit, so you can get out there, too, but only with some jumps. I don't think there should be an "easy out" to the RA/LG room, but you're right: it is kind of a death trap with only one exit.
I'd be much obliged if you can get me more specifics on the bits that look out of place to you. I've been staring myself blind on this map, so a lot of stuff (including the trapezoid "lump") don't even look wrong to me anymore.
Reworking the tile and wood texture shouldn't be a problem, though, so I'll tweak those.

@aeon:
Too kind! Also, not getting a (though much appreciated) huge list of desired changes from you is a good sign? :]
I have made a lot more decals than I ended up using. If you're interested in these, I might cook you up a bigger batch with similar stuff.

I'm especially glad the item layout seems to be ok so far -- I have so little experience with item placement that I just worked my way through some guides and hoped for the best. So if anything there could do with tweaking, do tell.



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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 07:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tabun,
it might be interesting to ask, if the gameflow / layout are potentially open for discussion? I always had problems with that map in :q1: times. And I still find the layout a bit confusing, but I guess there is not much one could change, or probably should, about it.

Only other thing I noted, so far, was one spot on your "smooth" patch ceiling above the water that was not completely (seamless) concerning texture alignment, and another area there, near a "ceiling stone" casting weird shadows on the (I think) normal brushes compared to the patches.

On decals: Since there are no texture sets for them (it seems), it might be really spiffy if you released the ones for this map, and the others you did not get around to using, in a "small" texture set.




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Immortal
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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 07:20 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


yup, im really looking for some good decals for the temp set




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-16-2009 12:03 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Layout discussion is always possible - but it's unlikely that I'll make any big changes for this one. In part that's because after a while I just get "done" working on the same thing. Mostly though, in this case it would be because I've already filled out a lot of details and maxed out the r_speeds, etc. Adding new paths (esp. keeping style) would probably mean stripping doorways or removing the vaulted ceiling -- not looking forward to that. ;] Item layout obviously does not suffer from that problem. Maybe I should try one of those "alpha"-projects that steadily pop up on this forum..

I've actually tried fixing those seams in the ceiling (and did manage to fix them near the exit to the area), but only managed to make it worse (odd gradient patterns on the patches) in some places. This is the best I can get the lighting to look, there. Near the exit the whole section from the side of the room up to the pillar is one big patch, but that apparantly is not the best solution (even leaving aside results for vis). I might try a combination of patches for better results, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

I'll see about that decal collection. There's already a nice decal thread, so I'll just toss it in there when done.



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Commander
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PostPosted: 10-17-2009 05:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


i also got my own version of this one ...
must see how u made the hallways:
the original is way smaller than it was good for q3,
thats why it becomes difficult to make it playable for q3.

In the room with the "well" ...u could add a gallery (2nd floor) +Jpad,
for more action.

Edit: The map is not as unpopular as u think.-
Your itemplacement is perfect ...but maybe u want some more inspiration:
>>>
http://www.filefront.com/14739503/q3q1dm5-Test.pk3

(im still holdin it back, coz it doesnt have a constant layout;
some parts look like q1, some like q3 and some like Painkiller.)



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The Illuminated
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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 05:01 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, nice work, I love the textures and lighting. It seems everyone is creating stuff with high res textures nowadays. A couple of nitpicks from me, the teleporters could do with an energy/shader pulse or some detail down the side, unless of course you want the 2001 space odyssey monolith style. Also the shader for the teleporter is crazy fast, reminds me of being stuck at sea on a tiny ship. I remember the original teleporter swirl to be more fluid and slower. As obs mentioned, the black lines on the wood texture is too dark, it certainly looks like cell shading when you line it up against edges.

I love the small little details you have created around the map but most of them felt too small compared to the scale of things around them. I assume the broken wall brick detail would be alot larger and more jaggered. I am not sure why you have done the staircases like you have, I can't think of a gameplay reason to stretch them out and create giant steps, it certainly feels the wrong scale and looks weird compared to the rest of the structure. Personally I would recommend crunching the steps into short groups or add space between bunches of steps instead.

The thing that really strikes me the most about the map is the lighting, it really does feel right in certain places, especially the warm glow from the fire on the walls. I really hope you release the source map file so everyone can have a look and learn how you do your lighting. :up:



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Mercenary
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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 06:30 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


nice map, kinds reminds me of this 1 ra3 map.



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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 06:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@sock:
- Funny enough: I was going for precisely that 2001-monolith type feel. Even selected the ambient sound for the 'porter to try and make them ominous sounding. They're also more in line with Quake's teleporters this way. I will try tweaking the shader for speed though, it may indeed look better if the turbulence is slowed down some.
- Wood textures are already fixed on my end, and it does look a lot better -- they fit in now. Beta2 will show, hopefully. :]
- I see what you mean about the stairs. Never struck me as odd until you pointed it out! I think I'll have to just "live with it and learn from it" on this one. I can only easily adjust some of the stairs in the map, and I'm not touching the curved stairs (they took me long enough as it is). But then I guess it's most obviously the tiled stairs that look too big.
- I'm not entirely happy with the wall damage myself and if I felt I could pull it off without going overboard on polies, I'd try my hand at breaking a pillar and doing other larger-scale damage aswell. Since I feel I have to follow the shapes of the bricks in the texture, I'd end up adding so much brushwork to a bigger whole that it'd get out of hand.

Edit:
I see I forgot to reply to the bit about lighting. I haven't done anything special there, really. Besides the sky, it's all point lighting. 40-60 valued for the torches, with a colour halfway between orange and dirty white. The rest of the light is made up by a whole bunch of filler lights, all dirty white and with values between 10 and 40. There's one for each torch to offset the shadow cast by the torch itself, and lots in places where it would otherwise be too dark, usually just not so big that you'd really notice their placement. Sky is: q3map_skyLight 640 5 + q3map_sunExt 0.4 0.4 0.5 100 120 75 2 32.

I don't really mind putting a .map up later, but only after the whole thing is ready for a release.



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Last edited by Tabun on 10-18-2009 09:47 AM, edited 2 times in total.

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Boink!
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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 07:24 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


On the last point, you might be able to "fake" the brokenness some more on the columns etc. using some more decals, of the sort you'd yet have to create that is :)... maybe that would work.




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The Illuminated
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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 12:45 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@tabun, ok here is some screenshots to show you what I mean about the steps, it would be very quick and easy to fix and certainly does not involve any of your curved staircases or breaking vis or poly limits.

Image 1:

Squashing the excessive staircase length should give the player more room to move around in this corner space. Fighting on slopes or long staircases is always awkward to do.

Image 2:

Again, push this staircase backwards so it climbs quicker and you got some cool cover space by the bottom area. The pillar corners now act as something you can dodgy in and out of and not have to fight up and down a staircase instead.

Image 3:

Not sure why this deadend has to end with a rocket jump, can't you sneak a small jump pad here or a lift to the SG? A lift would certainly fit in with your current Q1 style (no jumppads) and would also give a very important sound clue for other players. The lift can be very low poly like Q1 lifts were.

Image 4:

Squash the stairs so you have a space either side of the archway to fight. Also it will give players who drop down after kicking the button, some space to move around. The long stair case is cool to look at but it feels very strange to fight on.

Image 5:

Ok I understand you want to make getting the RA difficult (swim water problem) but the way back could be a little less painless and cool for the player who can jump. Add a small wooden support platform with the metal bars underneath so the player can jump from the RA to the ledge and over to the main path. Sure make it tricky, maybe a strafe or circle jump but a cool treat for someone who has got the RA.

Missed opportunity: I assumed the back of one of the teleporter (the one with the Q1 blood symbol) would take you to a different location. There is certainly plenty of room at the back to move around and it would have been cool to maybe skip to the area underneath the button (opens MH/RG room) platform.



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Boink!
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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 12:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sock's image 5... hehe... my thoughts exactly... please add that jump via "plank/ledge" to get back more quickly from the RA. I also tried the back side of the TP, and was disappointed ;)... another destination would be cool, IMO.

Image 3, I also agree that a JP there (well, a lift if it must be - don't like them that much), would really help this dead end.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 01:17 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks, good good. Just got done baking a new version, but I guess I'll reconsider and work at some of these points first.

1. Can do. Might look less like the Quake version. But then, I have a pure version for that!
2. Can do. Makes sense, too.
3. Jumppad wouldn't fit in, but I don't like the idea of a lift much either. I've done something else, though -- probably not anyone's preference here, but at least it adds a route: I've added a bunch of stones and ledges for the player to make 3 jumps upwards and out of the pit, in the corner where the stairs end. Makes for a dangerous exit, and the jumps also provide a sound hint.
4. I've cut the stairs in two sections, each having half the number of steps. This looks nice enough to me, but it doesn't work as well for the shorter stairs. Those I might just scrunch up a bit.
5. Actually, it is currently possible to circle/strafejump from the RA-alcove to the walkway. It's just hard enough to only be an advantage to players used to making such jumps (in the heat of battle). Maybe just adding a single plank (similar to Hipshot's use of them in Crescent) might help.

Finally, the way the teleporters are set up is just the way they worked in Quake. Never really thought of changing that. Seems counter-intuitive. Might try the idea of teleporting to the button... Not sure if that's too counterintuitive to my own tastes or not..

I'll try some stuff and use a "beta 2" to see how it turns out.



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Commander
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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 02:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


i got a Jpad in that pit/corner too! :smirk:



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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-19-2009 06:02 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


New beta, version 2:
tabq1dm5_beta2.zip

Changes:
  • Changed all (except the curved) stairs in the map. Scrunched up and moved (as per Sock's suggestion).
  • Added platform to RA-alcove (as per Sock/AEon's suggestion).
  • Added 3-jump exit from the low pit @ the SG/YA.
  • Changed a few of the brick/wood constructions.
  • Fixed small clipping problems and annoyances (esp. near the 3 pillars @ RL).
  • Changed teleporter destination when entering on the side near the bloody Q.
  • Changed tile textures and added damaged versions + step fronts. Changed metal texture and added "rotten" wood.
  • Toyed with water and slipgate shader.
  • Tweaked pure version (to a lesser extent).

That should take care of most of the feedback here.. Or did I forget something?
I'm going to skip trying to get the wall damage look perfect on this one. I'll just jot that down as live-with-and-learn-from-it -- third map will be better. :]

Still to do:
  • Fix weird shadow around torch in curved staircase (seems to be phong byproduct).
  • Try to get the water lightmapped properly, seems like it's uniformly lighted.
  • Make new levelshots.

Thanks all! I feel this is coming close to a release now..



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The Illuminated
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PostPosted: 10-19-2009 11:30 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow the changes look and feel really sweet, I like the blocks out of the SG pit, very nice style, bigger blocks as well. Wood trim looked good and matched all the shapes well and the staircases are much easier to go up and down. have you thought about wooden stairs? they might break the floor colour/pattern and also fit the shapes better? Maybe a wood plank with a metal trim?

While running around with a bot I was constantly wanting to shortcut to locations before the bot and alot of the routes are very linear and straight. I would also re-use the brick damage detail to more game play uses, at the moment a lot of it looks amazing but does not serve any function. So I have some more suggestions on how to shift the detail around and also create secondary (subtle) routes.

Image 1:

In the far corner is some broken detail, re-use it to create a broken edge at the first trim in the image above and then add some bricks poking out from the wall (next to the switch platform) to act as a second step up to the switch. This will allow a player to either go the long route the stairs or try some hop skip jump up the wall.

Image 2:

This corridor is really long and with a PG at one end it is like shooting fish in a barrel, especially people coming around the corner from the RL area. Re-use the brick damage detail here to create bigger steps (like the SG deathpit) so it pokes out from the wall and creates 2 huge steps up to the next floor. The new detail will offer cover down this corridor, especially coming out from the archway and also a nice secondary route up to the next floor. (something lacking at the moment)

Image 3:

A small subtle brick poking out from the wall would do nicely here to cut someone off at the top of the stairs and give them a surprise. :D Does not need to be really obvious but something you can easily jump up on to and them onwards to the platform above.

Image 4:

Cut a small section out of the upper floor edge so you can jump from the corner of the lower stairs up to the platform above and again cut someone off you are chasing up the stairs.

Image 5:

Re-use the brickwork damage detail here to create a small platform or a series of bricks poking out so that you can cross this space. At the moment you have to go around the long way on both sides. I have added a platform because it would be more interesting on architectural shapes but it can be something less obvious like bricks poking out. If you had a platform you could shift the +5 healths from the current platform to here.

Image 6:

Re-use various brick details around the room to create a couple of huge broken rubble piles going up to the platform edge. It would be a perfect shortcut to get players who go round the curved stairs towards the RG room. Bigger bricks would work better here, like the SG detail.



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Boink!
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PostPosted: 10-20-2009 01:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Not wanting to make you nervous - about the finishing the map part, that is - but:

  • IMO, all the weapons *just* floating above the floor without some item pad indicator look a bit out of place. With a map with this attention to detail I'd expect some smear (not blood though), some scratched up surface (that would be a need decal), or broken tile from usage stress, or something, denoting that folks pick up weapons here all the time. Presently the weapons look out of place, as if added on a whim, not as part of the map.
  • OK, this won't be happening, but might be food for thought. The RL room with the 3 columns and the "overly" ominous stairs could be made larger IMO. Even in :q1: times I thought those stairs are much too close to the columns, and that there should be more floor area in front of them for combat. I looked at the geometry (noclip), the RL tile path with columns could be moved away from the stairs by about 128u without having too much impact on the rest of the map. Well, just a thought :)
  • The back side alternate TP destination is good, but exiting near the switch (though in theme with a "secret" path) is not really that helpful gameplay-wise, IMO. You could "run" from the TP to the switch quickly enough. Plus you will be getting telefrags in front of the switch. As an alternative I was thinking of spawning in the MH/RG room, but that defeats the switch usage. A more interesting destination, because further away in distance, would be somewhere near the LG, e.g. in the previously dead end "pit" near the LG, looking towards the LG.
  • I like your wooden planks near the RA, though it still takes two strafe jumps to make the distance... a skill thing in vQ3... well at least from me, fine as it is.
  • Now this may take some work: Did you do any hinting in the map? I have found a lot of areas in the map that are "seeing" other parts of the map that should not be drawn. Especially the hole in the floor (RL room, corner of one pillar), should draw almost *nothing* of the lower water area, but it does. Some clever angled brushes would significantly reduce the number of polygons. Same is true looking up from the LG/RA area, were you should not be able to see much. There are quite a few other areas where you see too much of the water area, even though it is blocked be solid geometry.
  • You jumping stone solution exiting the pit dead end (near the LG) is maybe not so good from a gameflow perspective - you get held up - but works for the map, IMO. Better than forcing a RJ.
  • Update: I just remembered that the switch/door timing was pretty much on edge in :q1: - you had to be very quick to get into the MH room. I am not sure this is possible (timing-wise) in :q3:, but you may think about cutting the time the doors stay open in half. To make it harder to get into the room.

Update: Hehe... Sock is merciless. But those shortcuts would indeed help make the map more of a skill thing, and add to the fun of mastering those jumps. The other thing he mentions - the long straight passages - is another thing I noted... even a beginner like myself can bunny-hop long those tiled passages, even around the corners. Some breaks in the straight tile passages (something angled protruding from the wall) might be of interest, maybe. Something everyone is probably well aware of: Many design decisions in the original :q1: were based on saving as many polygons as possible, that obviously had a strong impact on the layout and gameflow, i.e. making it very simple.

Update 2:
  • There seem to be some serious issues with the bots on Hardcore (normal map). The bots have started JP-hopping (go in, exit, then enter TP again, in a loop). This may have to do with your TP exit entity placement. I'd guess you put that entity too close to the TP. The bots exit, move a bit and then accidentally hit the TP trigger again. Try moving the TP "exits" further away from the TP.
  • Got snagged in a few areas: On the tiled RL ledge (near the hole, not on the TP side), the torched will stop the player when bunny-hopping. Not sure what to do about clipping here, making the torches non-solid might work, or some playerclip.
  • Another snag is the arched doorway in that same area, you can get caught between doorway and wall. A 45° playerclip on both sides (and elsewhere in the map) should help players move backwards more easily.
  • To make swimming a bit more worthwhile you could place a 50H at the bottom of the pool. Come to think of it, placing the LG down there, "under the bridge", would also work.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-20-2009 03:34 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@AEon:
Aha! Now comes the AEon-feedback. I suspected it all along -- you just wait until I say something about a release! ;]

Now let's see.. I might have to let you see the .map on some points..

  • Weapon decals? Can do. Had considered it, but half decided it wasn't worth the hassle.
  • I'm not going to rebuild/restructure the RL room, though I see why that might be better. It still is a remake, though I'm taking more liberties than with my previous one. Also, I'd prefer to spend more time on a new project that can be better overall, rather than trying to turn id's old design into something that is neither a close remake nor perfectable to begin with.
  • Considered MH-room for the teleporter aswell, but dismissed it. I'm still leaning towards removing the alternative teleporter destination (it doesn't look "technically" right without a teleporter to exit from, to me), but again, I might try the pit..
  • Can do it in one circle-jump, and with about half the walkway to spare. Shouldn't be too hard even in vQ3.. :]
  • I think I may easily have done too much hinting. I spent ages trying to get it to work well enough to let me get in some detail. The reason you can see things you shouldn't have to, is mostly because I gave preference to horizontal rather than vertical hinting. Somehow I feel that too many overlapping hint brushes are a bad idea. If not, and if having a lot of vis sectors is not too bad either, I could add some. The most important spots are underneath the YA and near the PG, though. Those are the areas that get over 11k in r_speeds.
  • LG-pit exit: It'll have to do. Next map, once I get to that, I will both take more time to set up a better layout to begin with and pick an aesthetic style that allows for JPs etc. I'm an aesthetics-freak, so I feel I have to give preference to consistency there.
  • Door timing was sharper in Quake, this is true. I upped the wait time so it would be harder to get away with camping. Now changed from 10 to 7.5 seconds -- let's see if that helps some.
  • I noticed the odd bot-telejumping aswell. Didn't happen in beta1, so I figured it had more to do with adding a second trigger (the bot may be running backwards to get to the backside of the teleporter), than with the destination placement. May aswell try that, though.
  • I've specifically clipped the torches so you wouldn't unrealistically walk right through them! Since they're relative small, I could live with just weaponclipping them, but I'd have to write a shader for that. Weapon_clip seems to clip the player too. Not sure if it's really necessary though.. Only if you try bunnyhopping outside of the tiled walkway (or carelessly), you'll run into things.
  • Health in the pool sounds ok. I even considered this earlier, but decided against it. The rule normally seems to be: no H near the RA. Should be OK if I put it at the other end of the pool?

@Sock:
All mostly good ideas, to my mind. Some seem to defeat the purpose of actually having stairs in the first place a little, though. I'll see about adding at least half of those shortcuts.



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PostPosted: 10-20-2009 04:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tabun,
well I usually have better ideas after playing several betas, I then tend to remember things I forgot to mention in the previous beta. And since almost everything is in place one can concentrate on a the last few "issues".

  • As long as you don't use explicit per weapon decals (i.e. the huge slew of decals in AEcell), scratches, cracks, broken tiles or even some brushwork in the floors will be fine. Note your SG on the grate is already fine as it is.
  • No RL rebuild of room... yo, I agree, to late into the project / plus you are rebuilding a map, just mentioned as an idea.
  • I still don't seem to be able to do circle jumps... note to self, learn that ;)
  • The backside TP trigger as a bot issue: May very well be the problem for one of the TPs, but I saw this happening for both of them. You could try dropping the 2nd TP face, and see it that helps. There seem to be very good reasons why id avoided the TP hopping in most (all?) maps. I am concerned about this because my "remake" AEdm17 has *many* TPs, though the hopping happens here, it was not a "bug".
  • On hinting: You are absolutely right, the more intersecting hint brush faces you have the worse the map gets cut up portal-wise, this massively increases the compile times, and has some other issues I am sure Obsidian can put the finger on (technically). But a few horizontal hint brushes should help, alas this is pretty much trial and error, I'd have to see it in the .map and try some fast (no light) compiles to check if the hinting worked. Something like the "double-opening square funnel" (created out of 4 hint brush faces) in the RL hole should do the trick (at both ends touching the ceiling and the floor of the pool).

About the Sock's shortcuts, e.g. the one in the RL room, near the 50H would be neat, the one on the other side of the stairs is probably overdoing it.

Your r_speeds are pretty "tame" with 11K as worst case, so additional hinting may not actually be required. But it could be an interesting learning experience (for us all).




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Lasery Roboty
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PostPosted: 10-23-2009 03:58 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Awesome, loving this, not much more to say, except watch out with adding too many of those shortcuts, overconnection can often be as bad as underconnection.



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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-23-2009 04:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hmmyes, I had been puzzling over what to add and what would be overkill. Currently I have added (or plan to add) four shortcuts (of those that Sock suggested):
1. "loose brick" to allow a shortcut on the right of the stairs in the RL-room.
2. platform in RL-room near the hole in the floor, to allow a crossing one upper walkway to the other.
3. loose bricks/wall damage to get from PG to the button.
4. wall damage/rubble to get from PG/SG-hallway to the upper walkway.

What helps, I hope, is that I can make a clear difference between normal routes (quick and easy) and the shortcuts (slower, requires jumping, more dangerous) in most cases.

In the meantime, AEon has kindly helped me to finally understand what proper botclipping is all about, so I could cut my .aas in half.

After I get done with the final bits of shortcut, I'll put up "beta3".



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PostPosted: 10-24-2009 08:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ok.
Here's beta 3:

tabq1dm5_beta3.zip

Edit: decided not to post a full list of changes. I'm about to release beta4/rc1, and it's a little late to post previous changes. Summary: added shortcuts, tweaked look and rebuilt (bot)clipping from scratch.

Note(s):
  • Pure still needs tweaking of the lighting @ the water.



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Last edited by Tabun on 10-26-2009 04:04 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 10-24-2009 10:29 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thoughts:
  • IMO, those decals under the weapons make things look much more nicer.
  • Hmm... the hint brushes I suggested for the RL hole, were a *lot* more efficient than what is presently happening there. You see the "water" room from almost everywhere in the RL room, though you should not actually not see anything.
  • The shortcuts Sock suggested are neat... work really well.
  • I am not quite technically on top of this, because I never use doors, but should the shut doors to the MH room not completely cut off any vis beyond the point of the closed door? Presently the room is fully drawn not matter if the doors are open or closed. If you get that working you'll save a lot of tris right there.

Update:
  • The bots are a bit obsessed with the new shortcut from the lower level PG up to the YA level, they keep using this path much like stairs in both directions. It's almost as if there was a botroam here. If so, that botroam should be deleting, it confuses the bots.
  • The the issue with the TP hopping bots (in a loop) no longer seems to be an issue.
  • And alas I am too stupid to do a circle-strafe from the RA onto the walkway :(.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-24-2009 02:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon:
  • I removed 3 of the four hint brushes, since I preferred a low portal count over the lower r_speeds in those cases.
  • I didn't make a portal out of the door, because that room can only be seen from areas that have relatively low r_speeds anyway. Didn't seem worth the hassle?
  • There are no botroam items in the map at present. I don't exactly know why the bots use that particular shortcut so much -- a good sign that it is a helpful shortcut, though.

Finally, the trick with circlejumping is to make a slow, smooth turn with the mouse. You don't even need strafe for (and for me, it even interferes with) the jump..



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PostPosted: 10-24-2009 03:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I didn't make a portal out of the door, because that room can only be seen from areas that have relatively low r_speeds anyway. Didn't seem worth the hassle?
    If you stand behind the double-sides TP the r_speeds go up to 9.5K or so, not critical, but if it is relatively simply to "turn off" the room, I'd suggest giving it a shot.

Finally, the trick with circlejumping is to make a slow, smooth turn with the mouse. You don't even need strafe for (and for me, it even interferes with) the jump...
    If you have the nerve, I'd appreciate a demo of your jump from the RA to the walkway, I can double-bunny-hop (double-strafe-jump that would be) there but for the life of me the circle-jump does not work :(. Do you keep running forwards?




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-24-2009 04:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hmmyes, I guess I'll look into it. Should be almost properly set up to make it a portal anyway...

Demos? Sure. It seems I'm not doing as well when the camera is rolling (g_synch.clients makes everything choppy -- though it's probably camerashyness), but it was still easy to do from the RA.
Here's the demos: tabq1dm5_jumpdemos.zip

tabq1dm5_jump_a and tabq1dm5_jump_b show you circle+strafejumps, tabq1dm5_jump_c is (a rather clumsy) circlejump without strafing. As you can see, you can pretty much make it from stand-still.



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PostPosted: 10-25-2009 12:56 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Off topic: Whee, I finally did my first circle-jump... the mistake I seem to have been making was that I hit the jump key and kept holding it (RMB = Jump in my config). This seems to mess up the the circle-jump. Thanks for the demos.




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Lasery Roboty
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PostPosted: 10-25-2009 04:32 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


there's a nice trick when recording a demo, simply turn on synchronousclients, start recording, then turn off sync-clients :D Saves you the lag :D



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Warrior
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PostPosted: 10-26-2009 05:20 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ok. New, and hopefully final "beta" release.

Here is beta 4:
tabq1dm5_beta4.zip

  • Did some more texture work and gave the doorways a much needed facelift.
  • Made a new roof for the big room w/ the button.
  • Added an areaportal for the button-door.
  • Tweaked some textures, lights and small bits of brushwork, and optimized clipping and r_speeds some more.

One question with regards to the teleporter: how are people liking the alternate teleport location (to the pit near the LG)? I'd like to hear about this one last time, before I make the final decision whether I'm going to keep it or chuck it out (and make the teleporter work "normally").

The final thing that I'd appreciate some advice on is bot behaviour. Currently they can use two shortcuts (out of the pit near the SG, and the one in the long PG/SG hallway). It seems they are overly fond of the shortcut to the upper walkway and tend to clot together there. The other place the bots hang out too much is in the water, but I don't think I can fix that in any acceptable way. The question is: should I "disable" that shortcut (but keep the out of the pit near the SG)? Or should I just keep it as it is?

Other than that, I think it's done. If there's anything important that I've missed, or something still sucks, now is the time to tell me. :]
Rather amusing to see my previous map and compare it to this one -- I'd almost go back and remake that one, too.. Best to hang on to the things I've learnt and move on.

Screenies:







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PostPosted: 10-27-2009 12:24 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The reason why that one connecting shortcut (lower PG to upper RL) is so popular is probably threefold:
  • Right on the tiled floor on the upper level you have a player respawn point, placing bots right next to this "critical" area.
  • Bots seem to have a preference for the PG *and* the RL (normal), so they will wander between the two weapons.
  • And since a YA is also close by the bots will roam this area in particular.
What you could try is removing the player respawn point here, to reduce the focus on this area somewhat. E.g. place it inside the RL room near the hole or so. Might be "funny" to place the respawn exactly above the hole and have the player drop into the lower water area ;)

The areaportal works fine, IMO, a good move to remove unneeded tris when the door is closed.

Since I suggested changing the alternate TP exit, I like the exit near the LG. It gives the player access to the less frequented lower water area. I'm not quite sure the bots use this "secret" TP path though.

Even though the r_speeds are not really an issue with about 9K. But looking towards the water room, from the double-TP room, all the water room is drawn, IMO this should *really* not be happening. A final :ninja: hint brush might be in order to better cut off the pool area.

BTW, I only recently remembered cluster portals: I no longer remember when they were actually useful (required). But those might be able to "balance" the bot play a bit, i.e. help the bots not considder large parts of the map for navigation, but stick to the current room.

To all: Did we have a good tutorial on cluster portals?




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