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[Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) https://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=41765 |
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Author: | Tabun [ 10-14-2009 03:12 PM ] |
Post subject: | [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
update: Final sent off to lvlworld. Thanks all for your 2cts! Download final: tabq1dm5.zip New remake for Generations made it to "beta" status. As with the previous map (tabd2map01), there's a "pure" and a normal version. The pure version has Quake's (pretty much exact) item and floorplan layout, the default version has a totally different item layout and slightly tweaked geometry to make it play less awkwardly. Screenshots About the map For those who didn't recognize it: this is a remake of Q1DM5, The Cistern. Not the most popular Quake map, but with some changes the remake shouldn't have to suffer the same problems. It's a fairly faithful take, so the layout won't be changed much. (don't mind the items in the screenshots, they were changed after making those..) Download tabq1dm5_beta2.zip (8 Mb) Map name is "tabq1dm5" and "tabq1dm5_pure". Any feedback is welcome. One thing to keep in mind: the "pure" version makes little sense and doesn't play well (outside of the Generations Arena mod). No worries there, it's there for nostalgia purists only. |
Author: | fKd [ 10-14-2009 03:21 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
wow, thats looking amazing bro! good fucking work! will download when i get home from work, seriously! woah!!! |
Author: | AEon [ 10-14-2009 11:41 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Very beautiful map. This is the way the map would have been made, if id had the idTech3 at the time ... I also noted that you have quite an assortment of decals in this map... in-töres-ting The bots even go after the RA (saw Bones get it). Good use of "difficult" locations for powerful items, you need to swim to get the RA, you need to open a door to get the MH/RG. Awesome detail work, and very tasteful use of textures! |
Author: | obsidian [ 10-15-2009 06:57 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
The bottom floor with the LG is essentially a dead end if walking in from downstairs. I suggest you add a few broken bits by the pit on the end of the hallway (adjacent from the LG) or even a lift to provide an alternative way of hopping out and above. Some of the textures (like the checkered tiles) have what looks like jpg compression artifacts, or over-sharpening or something. The wood trim has a black border around them that makes them look as if cel shaded. It doesn't look bad, except that only the wood trim has them, so it looks a bit out of place. There are a few weird trim and detail bits that look out of place. I'll have to make a better note of where they all are, but one in particular is behind the main atrium, you have some pushed in bricks on one side and a weird trapezoid lump on the other side above the doorway. The lump looks out of place and isn't even centered over the door. Other than that, great map. Like AEon, I liked the RA and MH locations. |
Author: | v1l3 [ 10-15-2009 03:23 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Very Nice Map! It's kind of funny how you just popped this up, as a guy just put up his own remake version of this map. It's in the map queue over at ..::LvL. His is named "minkdm5". It doesn't come anywhere near yours though. |
Author: | voodoochopstiks [ 10-15-2009 04:31 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Real nice, I especially dig the textures and the smooth arched ceilings. |
Author: | Tabun [ 10-15-2009 04:56 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Thanks for the (nice) comments so far, folks. @v1l3: "Thomas Mink," who made that remake, is a beta-tester/regular at the Generations Arena forums. I knew he was working on it. He didn't want to go all the way, though, and preferred to make a quick version of it. It still was mostly a coincidence that we both remade dm5, though. ;] @obsidian: Good points all round. I think I'll make a pile of rubble/bricks in the pit, so you can get out there, too, but only with some jumps. I don't think there should be an "easy out" to the RA/LG room, but you're right: it is kind of a death trap with only one exit. I'd be much obliged if you can get me more specifics on the bits that look out of place to you. I've been staring myself blind on this map, so a lot of stuff (including the trapezoid "lump") don't even look wrong to me anymore. Reworking the tile and wood texture shouldn't be a problem, though, so I'll tweak those. @aeon: Too kind! Also, not getting a (though much appreciated) huge list of desired changes from you is a good sign? :] I have made a lot more decals than I ended up using. If you're interested in these, I might cook you up a bigger batch with similar stuff. I'm especially glad the item layout seems to be ok so far -- I have so little experience with item placement that I just worked my way through some guides and hoped for the best. So if anything there could do with tweaking, do tell. |
Author: | AEon [ 10-15-2009 07:14 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Tabun, it might be interesting to ask, if the gameflow / layout are potentially open for discussion? I always had problems with that map in times. And I still find the layout a bit confusing, but I guess there is not much one could change, or probably should, about it. Only other thing I noted, so far, was one spot on your "smooth" patch ceiling above the water that was not completely (seamless) concerning texture alignment, and another area there, near a "ceiling stone" casting weird shadows on the (I think) normal brushes compared to the patches. On decals: Since there are no texture sets for them (it seems), it might be really spiffy if you released the ones for this map, and the others you did not get around to using, in a "small" texture set. |
Author: | fKd [ 10-15-2009 07:20 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
yup, im really looking for some good decals for the temp set |
Author: | Tabun [ 10-16-2009 12:03 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Layout discussion is always possible - but it's unlikely that I'll make any big changes for this one. In part that's because after a while I just get "done" working on the same thing. Mostly though, in this case it would be because I've already filled out a lot of details and maxed out the r_speeds, etc. Adding new paths (esp. keeping style) would probably mean stripping doorways or removing the vaulted ceiling -- not looking forward to that. ;] Item layout obviously does not suffer from that problem. Maybe I should try one of those "alpha"-projects that steadily pop up on this forum.. I've actually tried fixing those seams in the ceiling (and did manage to fix them near the exit to the area), but only managed to make it worse (odd gradient patterns on the patches) in some places. This is the best I can get the lighting to look, there. Near the exit the whole section from the side of the room up to the pillar is one big patch, but that apparantly is not the best solution (even leaving aside results for vis). I might try a combination of patches for better results, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I'll see about that decal collection. There's already a nice decal thread, so I'll just toss it in there when done. |
Author: | InsaneKid [ 10-17-2009 05:09 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
i also got my own version of this one ... must see how u made the hallways: the original is way smaller than it was good for q3, thats why it becomes difficult to make it playable for q3. In the room with the "well" ...u could add a gallery (2nd floor) +Jpad, for more action. Edit: The map is not as unpopular as u think.- Your itemplacement is perfect ...but maybe u want some more inspiration: >>> http://www.filefront.com/14739503/q3q1dm5-Test.pk3 (im still holdin it back, coz it doesnt have a constant layout; some parts look like q1, some like q3 and some like Painkiller.) |
Author: | sock [ 10-18-2009 05:01 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Wow, nice work, I love the textures and lighting. It seems everyone is creating stuff with high res textures nowadays. A couple of nitpicks from me, the teleporters could do with an energy/shader pulse or some detail down the side, unless of course you want the 2001 space odyssey monolith style. Also the shader for the teleporter is crazy fast, reminds me of being stuck at sea on a tiny ship. I remember the original teleporter swirl to be more fluid and slower. As obs mentioned, the black lines on the wood texture is too dark, it certainly looks like cell shading when you line it up against edges. I love the small little details you have created around the map but most of them felt too small compared to the scale of things around them. I assume the broken wall brick detail would be alot larger and more jaggered. I am not sure why you have done the staircases like you have, I can't think of a gameplay reason to stretch them out and create giant steps, it certainly feels the wrong scale and looks weird compared to the rest of the structure. Personally I would recommend crunching the steps into short groups or add space between bunches of steps instead. The thing that really strikes me the most about the map is the lighting, it really does feel right in certain places, especially the warm glow from the fire on the walls. I really hope you release the source map file so everyone can have a look and learn how you do your lighting. |
Author: | ^Ghost [ 10-18-2009 06:30 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
nice map, kinds reminds me of this 1 ra3 map. |
Author: | Tabun [ 10-18-2009 06:47 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
@sock: - Funny enough: I was going for precisely that 2001-monolith type feel. Even selected the ambient sound for the 'porter to try and make them ominous sounding. They're also more in line with Quake's teleporters this way. I will try tweaking the shader for speed though, it may indeed look better if the turbulence is slowed down some. - Wood textures are already fixed on my end, and it does look a lot better -- they fit in now. Beta2 will show, hopefully. :] - I see what you mean about the stairs. Never struck me as odd until you pointed it out! I think I'll have to just "live with it and learn from it" on this one. I can only easily adjust some of the stairs in the map, and I'm not touching the curved stairs (they took me long enough as it is). But then I guess it's most obviously the tiled stairs that look too big. - I'm not entirely happy with the wall damage myself and if I felt I could pull it off without going overboard on polies, I'd try my hand at breaking a pillar and doing other larger-scale damage aswell. Since I feel I have to follow the shapes of the bricks in the texture, I'd end up adding so much brushwork to a bigger whole that it'd get out of hand. Edit: I see I forgot to reply to the bit about lighting. I haven't done anything special there, really. Besides the sky, it's all point lighting. 40-60 valued for the torches, with a colour halfway between orange and dirty white. The rest of the light is made up by a whole bunch of filler lights, all dirty white and with values between 10 and 40. There's one for each torch to offset the shadow cast by the torch itself, and lots in places where it would otherwise be too dark, usually just not so big that you'd really notice their placement. Sky is: q3map_skyLight 640 5 + q3map_sunExt 0.4 0.4 0.5 100 120 75 2 32. I don't really mind putting a .map up later, but only after the whole thing is ready for a release. |
Author: | AEon [ 10-18-2009 07:24 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
On the last point, you might be able to "fake" the brokenness some more on the columns etc. using some more decals, of the sort you'd yet have to create that is ... maybe that would work. |
Author: | AEon [ 10-18-2009 12:57 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Sock's image 5... hehe... my thoughts exactly... please add that jump via "plank/ledge" to get back more quickly from the RA. I also tried the back side of the TP, and was disappointed ... another destination would be cool, IMO. Image 3, I also agree that a JP there (well, a lift if it must be - don't like them that much), would really help this dead end. |
Author: | Tabun [ 10-18-2009 01:17 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Thanks, good good. Just got done baking a new version, but I guess I'll reconsider and work at some of these points first. 1. Can do. Might look less like the Quake version. But then, I have a pure version for that! 2. Can do. Makes sense, too. 3. Jumppad wouldn't fit in, but I don't like the idea of a lift much either. I've done something else, though -- probably not anyone's preference here, but at least it adds a route: I've added a bunch of stones and ledges for the player to make 3 jumps upwards and out of the pit, in the corner where the stairs end. Makes for a dangerous exit, and the jumps also provide a sound hint. 4. I've cut the stairs in two sections, each having half the number of steps. This looks nice enough to me, but it doesn't work as well for the shorter stairs. Those I might just scrunch up a bit. 5. Actually, it is currently possible to circle/strafejump from the RA-alcove to the walkway. It's just hard enough to only be an advantage to players used to making such jumps (in the heat of battle). Maybe just adding a single plank (similar to Hipshot's use of them in Crescent) might help. Finally, the way the teleporters are set up is just the way they worked in Quake. Never really thought of changing that. Seems counter-intuitive. Might try the idea of teleporting to the button... Not sure if that's too counterintuitive to my own tastes or not.. I'll try some stuff and use a "beta 2" to see how it turns out. |
Author: | InsaneKid [ 10-18-2009 02:53 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
i got a Jpad in that pit/corner too! |
Author: | Tabun [ 10-19-2009 06:02 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
New beta, version 2: tabq1dm5_beta2.zip Changes:
That should take care of most of the feedback here.. Or did I forget something? I'm going to skip trying to get the wall damage look perfect on this one. I'll just jot that down as live-with-and-learn-from-it -- third map will be better. :] Still to do:
Thanks all! I feel this is coming close to a release now.. |
Author: | AEon [ 10-20-2009 01:11 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Not wanting to make you nervous - about the finishing the map part, that is - but:
Update: Hehe... Sock is merciless. But those shortcuts would indeed help make the map more of a skill thing, and add to the fun of mastering those jumps. The other thing he mentions - the long straight passages - is another thing I noted... even a beginner like myself can bunny-hop long those tiled passages, even around the corners. Some breaks in the straight tile passages (something angled protruding from the wall) might be of interest, maybe. Something everyone is probably well aware of: Many design decisions in the original were based on saving as many polygons as possible, that obviously had a strong impact on the layout and gameflow, i.e. making it very simple. Update 2:
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Author: | Tabun [ 10-20-2009 03:34 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
@AEon: Aha! Now comes the AEon-feedback. I suspected it all along -- you just wait until I say something about a release! ;] Now let's see.. I might have to let you see the .map on some points..
@Sock: All mostly good ideas, to my mind. Some seem to defeat the purpose of actually having stairs in the first place a little, though. I'll see about adding at least half of those shortcuts. |
Author: | AEon [ 10-20-2009 04:04 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Tabun, well I usually have better ideas after playing several betas, I then tend to remember things I forgot to mention in the previous beta. And since almost everything is in place one can concentrate on a the last few "issues".
About the Sock's shortcuts, e.g. the one in the RL room, near the 50H would be neat, the one on the other side of the stairs is probably overdoing it. Your r_speeds are pretty "tame" with 11K as worst case, so additional hinting may not actually be required. But it could be an interesting learning experience (for us all). |
Author: | voodoochopstiks [ 10-23-2009 03:58 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Awesome, loving this, not much more to say, except watch out with adding too many of those shortcuts, overconnection can often be as bad as underconnection. |
Author: | Tabun [ 10-23-2009 04:32 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Hmmyes, I had been puzzling over what to add and what would be overkill. Currently I have added (or plan to add) four shortcuts (of those that Sock suggested): 1. "loose brick" to allow a shortcut on the right of the stairs in the RL-room. 2. platform in RL-room near the hole in the floor, to allow a crossing one upper walkway to the other. 3. loose bricks/wall damage to get from PG to the button. 4. wall damage/rubble to get from PG/SG-hallway to the upper walkway. What helps, I hope, is that I can make a clear difference between normal routes (quick and easy) and the shortcuts (slower, requires jumping, more dangerous) in most cases. In the meantime, AEon has kindly helped me to finally understand what proper botclipping is all about, so I could cut my .aas in half. After I get done with the final bits of shortcut, I'll put up "beta3". |
Author: | Tabun [ 10-24-2009 08:11 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Ok. Here's beta 3: tabq1dm5_beta3.zip Edit: decided not to post a full list of changes. I'm about to release beta4/rc1, and it's a little late to post previous changes. Summary: added shortcuts, tweaked look and rebuilt (bot)clipping from scratch. Note(s):
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Author: | AEon [ 10-24-2009 10:29 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Thoughts:
Update:
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Author: | Tabun [ 10-24-2009 02:53 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
AEon:
Finally, the trick with circlejumping is to make a slow, smooth turn with the mouse. You don't even need strafe for (and for me, it even interferes with) the jump.. |
Author: | AEon [ 10-24-2009 03:12 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
I didn't make a portal out of the door, because that room can only be seen from areas that have relatively low r_speeds anyway. Didn't seem worth the hassle?
Finally, the trick with circlejumping is to make a slow, smooth turn with the mouse. You don't even need strafe for (and for me, it even interferes with) the jump...
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Author: | Tabun [ 10-24-2009 04:31 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Hmmyes, I guess I'll look into it. Should be almost properly set up to make it a portal anyway... Demos? Sure. It seems I'm not doing as well when the camera is rolling (g_synch.clients makes everything choppy -- though it's probably camerashyness), but it was still easy to do from the RA. Here's the demos: tabq1dm5_jumpdemos.zip tabq1dm5_jump_a and tabq1dm5_jump_b show you circle+strafejumps, tabq1dm5_jump_c is (a rather clumsy) circlejump without strafing. As you can see, you can pretty much make it from stand-still. |
Author: | AEon [ 10-25-2009 12:56 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Off topic: Whee, I finally did my first circle-jump... the mistake I seem to have been making was that I hit the jump key and kept holding it (RMB = Jump in my config). This seems to mess up the the circle-jump. Thanks for the demos. |
Author: | voodoochopstiks [ 10-25-2009 04:32 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
there's a nice trick when recording a demo, simply turn on synchronousclients, start recording, then turn off sync-clients Saves you the lag |
Author: | Tabun [ 10-26-2009 05:20 PM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
Ok. New, and hopefully final "beta" release. Here is beta 4: tabq1dm5_beta4.zip
One question with regards to the teleporter: how are people liking the alternate teleport location (to the pit near the LG)? I'd like to hear about this one last time, before I make the final decision whether I'm going to keep it or chuck it out (and make the teleporter work "normally"). The final thing that I'd appreciate some advice on is bot behaviour. Currently they can use two shortcuts (out of the pit near the SG, and the one in the long PG/SG hallway). It seems they are overly fond of the shortcut to the upper walkway and tend to clot together there. The other place the bots hang out too much is in the water, but I don't think I can fix that in any acceptable way. The question is: should I "disable" that shortcut (but keep the out of the pit near the SG)? Or should I just keep it as it is? Other than that, I think it's done. If there's anything important that I've missed, or something still sucks, now is the time to tell me. :] Rather amusing to see my previous map and compare it to this one -- I'd almost go back and remake that one, too.. Best to hang on to the things I've learnt and move on. Screenies: |
Author: | AEon [ 10-27-2009 12:24 AM ] |
Post subject: | Re: [Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5) |
The reason why that one connecting shortcut (lower PG to upper RL) is so popular is probably threefold:
The areaportal works fine, IMO, a good move to remove unneeded tris when the door is closed. Since I suggested changing the alternate TP exit, I like the exit near the LG. It gives the player access to the less frequented lower water area. I'm not quite sure the bots use this "secret" TP path though. Even though the r_speeds are not really an issue with about 9K. But looking towards the water room, from the double-TP room, all the water room is drawn, IMO this should *really* not be happening. A final hint brush might be in order to better cut off the pool area. BTW, I only recently remembered cluster portals: I no longer remember when they were actually useful (required). But those might be able to "balance" the bot play a bit, i.e. help the bots not considder large parts of the map for navigation, but stick to the current room. To all: Did we have a good tutorial on cluster portals? |
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