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Topic Starter Topic: Training Day - Release Candidate 1 [Quake Live]

Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 16 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 07:22 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


After many weeks of procrastinating, hard work, and Starbucks coffee (not really) I`m pleased to announce that I`m ready to release the first release candidate for my new map, "Training Day". It`d designed with 1-on-1 in mind, also playable in small FFA`s and 2v2 TDM. Most textures used in this map are id stock textures from vq3 and TA, and some QL textures, some by ShadoW.

My objective here was to create a map with enough variation to be tournament-quality. It`s a two-atrium layout with several different ways to travel between the two rooms. Item placement was changed many times along the course of the map`s construction.

My wish is to get this map added to the premium QL rotation. The only problem is that I am not sure of what is the easiest way to contact SyncError. He doesn`t respond to many e-mails. What time is he on IRC?

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/?8cyyx6ehelma4z4 (1.14 MB)




Attachments:
trainingday_beta3.JPG
trainingday_beta3.JPG [ 42.82 KB | Viewed 437 times ]

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Last edited by EmeraldTiger on 03-06-2011 08:55 PM, edited 7 times in total.
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Your Other Daddy
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 08:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


1on1

duhard where are you



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Insane Quaker
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Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 10:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It's taking shape since the last time I saw it. There's some ideas I like there.

The RA pool, the first stair coming out of it should have a clip ramping up to it since stairs don't work underwater. Either that or make the whole thing a ramp. That also means clipping around the RA drain. I'd also decrease the height of the water - it's almost like swimming since it's quite deep. It works well in creating a barrier between RA and MEGA at least.

Your patches: I know you're new to using patch curves. A rule of thumb is that the curved surface should be set as natural (Ctrl+N) and the adjoining flat sides set as cap (Ctrl+Shift+N). You can align the textures accordingly using Shift+(directional key) to move the texture placement and Shift+PgUp/PgDown to rotate by 45 degrees. Shift+S gives you more control over patches. Every patch surface I saw needs the textures redoing.

The YA ledge could do away with the walkways on the sides. I'd either make them narrower or do a Black Cathedral and just have a short surface joined to the walls to jump on to with gaps on the sides. This all allows someone at the LG to prevent their opponent from getting YA.

The LG floor looks odd. And I don't know how receptive pros will be of the slick goo around the LG. I personally hate slick.

The bounce-pad wells are too wide. Narrower ones would allow for some better defensive play by the player on top. Come to think of it, I'd expand the RL jumppad in a little and pull of a Demon Keep mega jumppad. I dunno, just a random thought. It'd add a bit of substance there. RL to SG seems too short.

I know it's only beta, but some nice lighting makes a world of difference. You've got some great sources of light there: the skyroof over RA and the sky+girders by YA. Then for lower passages you just have ceiling lights.

The item placement seems good overall (although only extensive testing would be able to pick out any issues), and I like the necessary strafe jumps needed to get around some sections of te map. Good job, keep working hard on it!




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Señor Shambler
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Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 10:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Just a couple of quick notes of technical issues:
-The doors entering/exiting the RG hallway need clipping
-The JP leading up to the PG is over-powered, IMO

Otherwise, the main issue I can see is the water. If I were you I'd probably drop it to where you're just "wading", because the disincentive it provides for the RA and the MH is too much (I think most players would probably get frustrated). If you decide to keep it where it is, consider changing the stairs to a ramp and lowering or clipping the grate underneath the RA, because horizontal surfaces like that do not pop the player up as though it's a stair, since the player is "swimming".

Similarly, the use of slick is an interesting, but uncommon disincentive for an item. I think it's good that you have only used it in a smallish area, and not covering the entire LG floor, but I'd be interested to hear if there's a consensus on whether it's a good thing, or too frustrating.


Sticking the MH at the end of a long hallway, where the player is forced to either swim through a bunch of water, or turn around is too much punishment IMO - there should be a means of exit that isn't so long. For example, in Blood Run, ztn has a MH/long hallway setup, where you can also spam grenades from above, but a player going for the MH has a variety of options for escape, and can do them in a relatively short period of time (e.g. go up LG JP, go through YA tele or the JP there or RJ up to the RL, or go through RG tele). I think if you rearrange your setup a bit to give the player some options as to how to escape, with perhaps varying consequences (like maybe an RJ possibility, or a super risky jump, or whatever), then the MH will be a more viable option, and have more interesting battles. You'd be pretty screwed, for example, if the player coming in after you had a RG and you were already in the water.

My initial impression of the map was that it was a little corridor-y, so you might want to think of how you could trim down on hallways, or make them more interesting.

Definitely try to get some human testing in there if you're trying to make this a good 1v1 map - I've been trying to make one as well and I think it's pretty much invaluable, especially if you want people to actively play it. I'm a terrible arranger of matches though, so maybe you'll have better luck (see if Maverick will put your map up) :P

Hope that helps, I look forward to any changes you might make :)




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 10:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Does it cost money to get my map on Maverick Servers, or to start my own server? If not, I`ll try to see if I can get some human testing done. I can`t do CPMA though as it always crashes when I try to enter an online server, it`ll have to be vq3 / TA only.

And thanks for your suggestions. I`ll see what I can do about the back mega hallway, although I don`t want to remove it entirely, as it makes the map more connective; I`ll probably put another tele there.

I`ll wait and see what the majority has to say about the slime. I see it as a unique gameplay element so I would like to keep it unless many people disagree with it.

As for the water, I`ll keep it the same height to prevent players from getting from RA to mega too quickly, but will try to change the stairs into ramps. Some clipping adjustments will also be made.

Again, thanks for your feedback! Every change made is a step further into this map entering Quake Live. :)



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 10:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Another thing I remembered: get rid of that really loud, irritating fan sound. It's just distracting and brutal on the ears. Subtlety is the answer. There's some nice fan sounds in Q3 that you can use.

I also got a reaccuring error:
WARNING: RE_AddPolyToScene: NULL poly shader

That occured when near the water areas. I guess it's a shader error, but I'm sure one of the guys over here can tell what the problem is.




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Señor Shambler
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 10:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


EmeraldTiger wrote:
Does it cost money to get my map on Maverick Servers, or to start my own server? If not, I`ll try to see if I can get some human testing done.


I can't speak for Maverick (and I don't know if he would appreciate me advertising his services or not.... :ninja: ), but he generally seems amenable to having mappers test their maps on his servers without any charge. It seems to me that no amount of a priori reasoning is a good substitute for two players actually playing one another on it to win (as in, simulating an actual match where two people care about beating each other), then telling you what they thought about it. Bots sure as hell don't count. :P




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 11:06 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I`ll look into it then.

Which version does he use? I am using version 1.32, which has a protocol of 68. I can install an alternate copy somewhere if his protocol is lower than mine.



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Señor Shambler
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 11:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Just hop on #maverickservers on irc.quakenet.org




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-01-2011 11:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I can`t seem to find it. Here is the list of servers I get:

clanserver4u.de.quakenet.org
euroserv.fr.quakenet.org
gameservers.us.quakenet.org
idsoftware.us.quakenet.org
ign.ie.quakenet.org
jubii.dk.quakenet.org
multiplay.uk.quakenet.org
port80.se.quakenet.org
servercentral.us.quakenet.org
stockholm.se.quakenet.org
underworld.no.quakenet.org
velocity.us.quakenet.org
wineasy.se.quakenet.org
xs4all.nl.quakenet.org

I can`t find maverickservers in this list. Am I looking in the wrong place? http://www.quakenet.org/serverlist.php this is where I checked.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-03-2011 03:30 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sorry if this sounds demanding, but would anyone else who has tried this map like to share some constructive criticism / advice? If there is something that no one else has mentioned yet that you believe needs attention, please let me know.

Also: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=45091

Should I use hint brushes in any places in particular, or is your performance fine without hints?



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Last edited by EmeraldTiger on 01-03-2011 05:49 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-03-2011 04:41 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I will look at it when I can.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-03-2011 07:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


EmeraldTiger wrote:
I can`t seem to find it. Here is the list of servers I get:

I can`t find maverickservers in this list. Am I looking in the wrong place? http://www.quakenet.org/serverlist.php this is where I checked.


They're all connected.

Are you sure you spelled irc.quakenet.org correctly?

Just go /server irc.quakenet.org
then /join #maverickservers

You will automatically connect to one of the quakenet servers.




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-04-2011 03:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Well, this map is a long way away from Quake Live quality, but it's not bad. The main problem with your map is the blandness of some of the decisions in design. There is very little detail, and with a little more detail scattered where it counts, this map could benefit greatly.

This tile texture and slime of some sort has to go:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel12.jpg

The texture is way too largely tiled and clean. The space would benefit from a more interesting texture like this: http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... -tiled.jpg

If you are able to find/make a texture like that so that you can submit it to syncerror it would be majorly helpful to that area.

Also ensure that you remove that slick area and the texture. It's good that you tried to break up the monotony of the texture, but the texture of the slime isn't that good either.

This area is really bland and the textures don't really work well here: http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel16.jpg

I adamantly suggest that you curve that hallway as it lends itself to being curved. Change up the top texture and you may consider indenting the brown wall at the purple lines. This would give a surface upon which to place lights or other small details that would also break up the monotony. I'm suggesting that you indent it like this (also includes how the hallway could be curved):

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel18.png

The jump pad areas are rather bland as well. I suggest that you curve them and possibly add more trim to the sections above the pad. One texture on the wall behind a jump pad is rather monotonous.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel14.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel13.jpg

I also suggest that you bring the jump pad forward a bit in the first jump pad screenshot. If you curve the walls around the jump pad, do them like Quake Live's qzdm13 by the plasma gun:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel19.jpg

The next thing I want to suggest is that you totally remove this hallway and the one leading to Red Armor:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel15.jpg

The hallway is pointless. Regardless of what you put in the hallway, the flow is disrupted by the flood of water and length of the hallway. I recommend completely removing it to benefit the flow of the map as a whole. I will give you my suggestions for item placement below.

So, along with the removal of that hallway, the doorway to that hallway would be removed from here:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel17.jpg

You will also notice a few other changes on that screenshot. Overall, I am suggesting that you remove the hallway that was flooded (almost all of it; see below), raise the water level a bit so it's less of an annoyance and more of an obstacle, remove the grate that is on the bottom of the pit of water and turn it into a platform that will be able to be stood upon over the water (can be jumped to from the surrounding platforms), place small platforms upon which players can walk where the green is towards the edge of the water (the height would be high enough so that players can jump to get on to the actual platforms [i.e. where the rocket launcher is]), change the blue tile texture to something similar to the other texture recommendation, remove the fan (perhaps relocate it - also get rid of that annoying ambient sound), add some sort of source of the water like a grate or a drain (take this for inspiration [from phantq3dm3 - Corrosion] http://www.phantazm11.com/content/phant ... 8d6aeefc08), and finally indent the advertisement sign into the wall a bit like the other signs.

As I said, I don't want you to remove all of the flooded hallway that led to the mega health. Instead, I am suggesting that you only keep a small part to leave a reason for the hole on the second floor (where one can tele). If you decide to couple this suggestion in with the one above it, I suggest that you replace the doorway with a small grate that is completely submerged underwater (as a source of water for the other flooded room under the hole from the second floor). I also suggest that you add a platform under the hole so that there is an item that can be placed there. I recommend making it a curved wall about where the black line / white curve is. Also, you may consider removing the steps.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... uel110.jpg

All of this being said, the weapon layout is pretty good. I think the mega health and red armor were too close to each other regardless of the obstacle between them. I suggest moving the mega health to the yellow armor location and turning those +5 healths into armor shards. Then, you can either remove a weapon of your choice from its location and place it on the platform in the flooded hall (off of the red armor room) and place the yellow armor where the weapon was, or you can place the yellow armor on the platform in the flooded hall.

The layout is pretty nice, though. I have a small concern about certain weapons being together, but it's nothing to write home about. I also want to compliment you on the contrast between the lighter grayish-beige and the darker gray found in this screenshot: http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... duel17.jpg

The contrast is nice, but I would recommend doing something to break up the monotony of the larger portion of the wall.

Good luck with any changes you make, and I hope you find success when you submit it to quake live.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-04-2011 04:36 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Holy cow Anthem! I think you earn the award for "being the most constructive person" in this thread! I think you pretty much got all the problems covered, and I do thank you for that. There are some parts that I am confused about, however, and other parts in your post that I have concern about changing. I`m not trying to bash you or your post, or trying to say that your opinion is unwarranted. Rather, I just feel I could use some clarification on some parts. I hope you are not offended by this:

I am unsure about why I should remove the fan. I do agree that the sound is rather loud and that I should probably use a quieter one, but I am unable to see why it should go. It`s not blocking player movement, and it helps spruce up the room a bit, which (agreeably) you said is too bland in texturing. Would you mind explaining further why the fan should be removed, please?

I am also concerned about turning the grate below the RA into a platform. I do agree that the grate is a bit annoying as it is not clipped properly, but I am afraid that if I turn it into a platform, the reward of obtaining the RA will outweigh the risk factor involved in getting it. This is one reason why I filled the area up with water - the other player can listen to someone splashing in the water, therefore making it more dangerous. I`m not saying I disagree with your idea, but I have concerns that it might allow players to take control of the map too quickly.

Again, I hope you aren`t offended by this. Your comments about the map were definitely some of the best advice I have ever recieved, it is just that I am confused about some parts such as the fan, in which I could benefit from an explanation.

Thanks for sharing your advice Anthem, I will definetely keep them in mind. Have a nice day.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-04-2011 04:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Don't worry, mate. Be honest with me and I will do the same with you. I am not offended in the least.

The reason why I suggested that the fan should be removed or replaced actually isn't all that clear to me at the moment. I think when I was running around your map I noticed that the fan is a bit bulky and not exactly on scale with the area in which it is placed. I noticed that the fence grate over the fan isn't layered correctly over the fan itself, which detracts from the value of that detail. That was probably the root of my criticism of the fan. Perhaps you could remove the one you currently have and replace it with two medium sized fans side by side. This would seem more practical in my opinion.

I feel the platform in the water is necessary. You can move it further towards the walls from where it is currently located, of course, but I feel it is important to change this. The water surrounding the item is quite an obstacle as it is. The fact that the enemy, who can come from above, can protect the item with a well placed rocket splash launching the player into the water is pretty dangerous. The same is true about where the yellow armor is currently located. One well placed rocket can throw the player off of that platform, thus keeping the item protected.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-04-2011 05:37 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for clarifying, Anthem. It makes more sense now, and I am now comfortable with making the changes you suggested.

Also, me and Anthem got together to test this map in a duel on Maverick`s testing servers. (Thanks Maverick!) I have recorded a demo in case anyone is interested and possibly point out anything, here is the download: http://www.mediafire.com/?vj3mf6psdfs30op (warning: huge file size!)

gg Anthem, thanks for offering to test it with me. BTW if I accidentally seemed to have left the server abruptly, it`s because it changed to a map I didn`t have on my hard drive.

After thinking about it, I`m going to go ahead and get to work on the QL version now and make this a QL-exclusive map, since it`s already been tested with humans and QL has some interesting textures I can use to improve the atmosphere a bit. Plus, it will get rid of legality problems, and therefore SyncError can comfortably accept it. Basically, mega-retexture time.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-30-2011 11:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


im sorry, but that screenshot in your first post is still the same as it was, and it looks like pure garbage. like an old bland duke3d level with a pool of vomit in the middle on kitchen tiled flooring.

where's the QL version of this? any update on this? what's the ETA on your next release? wtf...




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 01-31-2011 05:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, you posted the same question over a million times in this forum, asking authors about updates. While I don`t mind people asking when the next update is (so as long as it`s done sparingly and in an appropriate manner), your attitude is nothing short of rude. Many people have lives outside of level design, and can`t always keep people updated.

Anyways, I don`t have an ETA yet for the next update, but I am making (albeit slow) progress with it, and I hope to have it out within the next two weeks if possible.

On the bright side, I had to say I enjoyed your comment about the "vomit on the floor". That gave me a laugh or two.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-06-2011 10:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Alrighty boys, here`s Beta 2 of Training Day and this time it`s Quake Live-only, so fire up your QL accounts and check the new map out. It`s almost completely re-textured, removing all references to former custom texturing and also sports a laundry list of gameplay-related changes. The textures used are a combination of vq3, QL, and some ShadoW textures.

No bot file because I had to compile this thing like ten times in a row after catching so many mistakes.

There`s some notable visual issues that I am aware of but cannot fix as of right now until someone provides some easy-to-follow tips:
- Metal trim where the MH is isn`t aligned properly and doesn`t "curve" smoothly at the corners where they meet.
- Large copper trim near MH is fine except for one side where it has an unpleasant "barcode" effect, dunno why it is doing this as GTKRadiant sees it as fine.
- The water could use a little "lighting up" (maybe an invisible, no-clip pale-blue patch that emits light?)
- No screenshot yet (waiting until map is finished)

I`m also somewhat concerned about the item placement. It seems you can obtain the RA, YA, and MH in less than 5 seconds. If anyone has suggestions on how I can make it less easy for this to happen without significantly altering the layout, teleporters, or item placement, I`d like to hear it.

If you spot any other gameplay issues please feel free to let me know, but I will not be making large-scale changes anymore. Once everything seems good to go, I`ll call id software and ask Adam Pyle about my map.

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/?cicei89mn71wslp



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-07-2011 04:17 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I will post comments about your progress later tonight, but I want you to know that you should be proud of the progress. It's starting to look like a quake live map. It's still a bit rough around the edges, and some kinks need to be worked out, but there is still potential. The layout isn't too bad. After all, it's not like there will be only one person trying to get YA, RA and MH. I think it's possible that this map will be fairly fast paced, but some things need to be changed.

I will comment on more later.



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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 02-07-2011 06:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Alright, so I just gave it a go and I think it is good but has room for improvments.

First thing I noticed was that the distances between items are really short. RA to MH takes you 2 seconds if you rocket jump from the RA platform directly into the TP bringing you to the MH room (works the other way around too obviously) - thus I'd suggest to replace that 2 way teleporter with a normal path. Normally, short distances between RA and MH aren't much of a problem but due to the teleporters an incoming player is hard to predict - a path would allow for sound clues and make it possible for the other player to get a good positioning on the incoming player.



Next problem is probably the distance between RA and YA. A GA is often not worth much in duel - a stacked player can normally bring down a player with 25 armor easily. However, controling YA and RA will be easy with the current layout. The main problem is the TP at the RA that brings you to the ledge right in front of the YA. I'd suggest changing the tp destination or even better (imo) extending the layout and replacing the TP with a path.



This would not only make the travel distance longer and more dangerous but also help the general connectivity and flow. Besides that it would add some more interesting, vertical gameplay possibilities to the room. You should of course watch out for the line of sight not getting too long in that hallway in case you want to implement it.

Last but not least I thought the RG teleporter exit was a bit weird, bringing you to a totally different area of the map. Moving it to the ledge above the TP would make the RG a little more dangerous to take (hence you are not safe just because you went through the tele - another player can still rail you from above) and again help the vertical connectivity of the map.



PS: You might want to look into having smaller height differences on the several floors. Mind that 16 units can already give you an advantage in rocket fights as the player on the lower level can not aim at the feet of the higher player very well and will thus make less splash damage while the higher player has an easier time to hit the lower player. This way you can make less traveled parts of your maps more appealing and even control how players will position in fights.

Keep it up.

-cityy



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-07-2011 09:40 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, that's much better! Tbh beta 1 was more of an alpha version, but this is very much a beta.

A few things:
- You should lower the LG floor a bit to prevent being able to jump onto the higher floor, as that should serve as a boundary, otherwise why bother having steps there in the first place? 8 units will do the job perfectly, but won't work well with the 16 unit steps you got there, so maybe 16 units will be the way to go.
- I don't know about having RA and GA right by eachother.
- The RG tele and RA tele should have the destinations swapped, to keep a bigger distance between RA and Mega.
- The RG ledge can be circle-jumped onto, that's great, but the tele is way to close to the RG - that platform should be lengthened a bit to give room to manouver and not be teleported by mistake when you want to go backwards instead.

The last 2 points clash with cityy's ideas above, which are very good ideas, but it's obviously your choice in the end on what you do!

Keep it up, be patient and determined, I know you'll do well!




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-21-2011 11:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some people are probably wondering what is going on with this map, so here`s some updates for you (I`m doing this before releasing in case anyone has objections):

- Added new tunnel above the former GA room (as suggested by cityy), moved GA up there and move SG to where the GA previously was, in response to MuffinMan`s suggestion regarding the closeness of the GA / RA.

- In the process of adding the other new tunnel cityy suggested. Pipes help break line-of-sight and chaingun is available in this tunnel when played in any non-duel gametype. (the pros aren`t very receptive of it)

- Power-up / 50+ health on the ledge will be moved to the lower tunnel next to the jump pad cityy suggested, near the door to the LG room. Power-up spawn will be changed from quad / regen to quad / haste.

- Will move down the LG floor by 16 units, probably considering swapping 16-unit stairs for longer 8-unit ones, also as cityy suggested.

- Will change tele exit for RG tele, lengthen platform slightly.

- Square advertisement instead of the long one that was used before, along with some other visual changes.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-27-2011 11:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Okay, so I couldn`t do everything I said above 100%, and there`s some additional changes, but I`m happy with the results and am ready to release Beta 3 of Training Day. Aside from the curve issues (which id can fix themselves), let me know if there`s anything that needs fixing and I`ll get to it very quickly.

You may notice that steel structure through the window now is bordered by walls. I didn`t want to have to do this, but because of the new hallway I had no choice.

Be sure to keep on the eye out for an easter egg in this map. If you want a hint, it`s somewhere where the brushwork has been modified since Beta 2.

Download Beta 3: http://www.mediafire.com/?qit4f5ugg2olp4p

If all goes well, I`m sending it in to SyncError, and then all we can do is be patient.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-27-2011 11:44 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think that each of the changes are an improvement, so thumbs up for that.

The new RL corridor could do with a bend/visual block of sorts to it imo, or at least an element that promotes a little vertical variation (ie: stairs or something). It just feels too blocky. On a similar note, I can't quite decide whether the 2 RL's are too close to one another or not.

The PG platform I have never liked - it seems far too narrow leading from the jumppad, maybe something can be done there to improve it and also make the geometry around there look a little more interesting.

As for sending it to Sync, I think you're being impatient again! Aesthetics are also very important and I think there's still a lot of work to be done in that department - more variation in lighting, ambient sounds (eg: running water sound by new RL and maybe RA), more detailing and trimming, and of course finally addressing that patch texture issue. But anyway, you're still making great progress so keep it up.

A few more small changes and I think you're past the beta stage!

Edit: I saw the easter egg btw :D problem is that you can only really see it using noclip.




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surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: 02-28-2011 10:01 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think beta 3 is an improvment over the last version already. Though it still has quite some weak points IMO:
- the lighting (lack of shadows, overbright in some places)
- the detailling (corridors looking naked - not sure if that's still on your wip list tho)
- the room structure and complexity
- jumppads are still pushing you too high up
- Im uncertain about your tubes and the liquid inside them - did you want to accomplish the same effect as on QL's phrantic? Maybe I can help out

Also I agree with themuffinman about the PG ledge. What you might want to do is killing the JP in the MH room and putting the TP exit up there. I don't like the current exit anyway but that might be just me.

Some screenshots:








I hope those can inspire you a little - maybe you can port some of the room structure concepts to the MH room. As always, these are only suggestions. About sending the map to id.. I think you can always do that, no matter what state your map is in - point out what the state of it is and what aims you have for it. However, a finished map will always be the better choice to send in as it gives them a full impression of your skills and abillities.

Good luck.



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Insane Quaker
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Joined: 16 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 02-28-2011 03:06 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for your suggestions.

In response to the second screenshot posted by cityy, here is a blueprint of a revised upper hallway:
Attachment:
trainingday_bp1.JPG
trainingday_bp1.JPG [ 7.73 KB | Viewed 14365 times ]

This new layout should create more interesting geometry, reduce the line of sight, and perhaps make it more difficult to grab the YA / RA so quickly. The chute is also an inventive idea I came up with, inspired by Quaker-X`s "Grindmill", which takes you to the lower hallway without having to use the jump pad well.

The pipes: Yes I was trying to achieve a Phrantic-esque pipe, and I would appreciate any help you have in this regard cityy, thank you.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-28-2011 04:17 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah, I'm with everyone else on this. Don't be too hasty with sending it in. It's still very rough around the edges. I think it's important to change the brownish pipe/wire texture in this hallway (under the fence).

Otherwise, I think the layout is finally good. Listen to cityy and themuffinman; they know what they are talking about.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-28-2011 11:07 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


cityy, those screenshots don't show. You really shouldn't use shitty imageshack, photo bucket is ftw ;)

Ok this applies to this thread as well as that lighting issue thread you started Tiger -

Ambient light should be used to a strict minimum. I'd say lowering it to 5 would be even better. I think a bright look to the map works well for it, but with enough lighting variation, coloring and shadowing to make it look good. To improve the lighting more, concentrate on using only sun and surface lights, and very little ambient lights if you can help it. Take On the Edge as an example: I used some surface lights in a few places, plus the sky, ambient lighting of about 5 and that was it. I also know that cityy's Left Behind also uses primarily surface lights and no area/point lights - and I don't even think he used ambient light at all!

Your sky shader could use redoing and q3map2 functionality added for that extra lighting precision. Replace it with this in your shader file as well as replace it in your map editor:

Code:
textures/pasduel1/sky
{
   surfaceparm noimpact
   surfaceparm nolightmap
   surfaceparm sky
   q3map_globalTexture
   q3map_sun .160 .128 .096 80 300 60
   q3map_surfacelight 50
   qer_editorimage textures/skies/inteldimredclouds.tga
   skyparms - 512 -
   {
      map textures/skies/inteldimclouds.tga
      tcMod scroll 0.1 0.1
      tcMod scale 3 2
      depthWrite
   }
   {
      map textures/skies/intelredclouds.tga
      blendFunc GL_ONE GL_ONE
      tcMod scroll 0.05 0.05
      tcMod scale 3 3
   }
}


The RGB values give it a brownish light, but it's a brown sky you have there anyway. I think that one of Method's bright white skies in QL would be more suitable for this map though (like the sky used in Asylum). You could also add white light beams to the edges of your sky roof and by your girders above the mega to give it that extra bright, sunny day look.

You should also tweak your lighting compile. Here's something similar to what I used for On the Edge:

Code:
"C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena\q3map2\q3map2.exe" -fs_basepath "C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena" -fs_game "baseq3" -connect 127.0.0.1:7525 "C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena\baseq3\maps\trainingday.map"
"C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena\q3map2\q3map2.exe" -fs_basepath "C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena" -fs_game "baseq3" -vis -connect 127.0.0.1:7525 "C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena\baseq3\maps\trainingday.map"
"C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena\q3map2\q3map2.exe" -fs_basepath "C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena" -fs_game "baseq3" -light -fast -fastbounce -shade -bounce 6 -samplesize 8 -samples 3 -dirty -dirtscale 4 -dirtdepth 8 -v -cpma -gamma 1.25 -connect 127.0.0.1:7525 "C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena\baseq3\maps\trainingday.map"
"C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena\bspc.exe" -bsp2aas -connect 127.0.0.1:7525 "C:\Program Files\Quake III Arena\baseq3\maps\trainingday.bsp" -forcesidesvisible -optimize
Pause


The bounces are very important as that will give some radiosity to the map, making it bright in more places. Dirt map gives your geometry more depth in places. The gamma value can be lowered if it's too bright. Fast makes the compile much quicker and I get the feeling you haven't been using that! Start using it and you'll never make a compile again without it guaranteed!

Anyway, alter the paths accordingly if you don't have Q3 and Q3map2 installed in the default paths. Save that to a text file, saved as trainingday.bat, run it. Result?




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surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1006
PostPosted: 03-01-2011 12:25 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The screenshots display fine here!? Seems to work for emeraldtiger aswell.

You are right about the usage of ambient light - keep the ambient light count low as a high number will wash out shadows. As you said Left Behind uses shader light almost exclusively. The reason for this is that I just didn't know about the advantages of entity light back then. However, I'm using mostly entity light for a while now as it gives you more possiblities and control about what result you want.
I made a related screenshot: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/losthope/b1/light1.jpg
As you see the lighting results from ambient light 5, some minlight, the skylight and lots of entities. The total count of light entities in beta 1 was 302 with 142 info_null entities for spot lights. All my spot lights are 2 colored to give it some interesting effect. Method does that in his QL maps too btw. Also using colored ambient light can contribute to the atmosphere and looks more natural if done right.
I put the official QL light compile settings into the screenshot - SyncError pasted them on IRC a while back (adjust the -threads switch). Like themuffinman I compile using a .bat file. It is a slighty modified version of what obsidian gave me a while back.

About the pipes.. I once tried to redo that shader and this is what I could come up with:

Code:
textures/yourmap/pipe_liquid
{
      qer_editorimage textures/liquids/pool3d_3.tga
      q3map_globaltexture
      surfaceparm nomarks
      cull disable
                   //BACKGROUND COLOR - background.tga is a 16*16px single color .tga image
      {
         map textures/yourmap/background.tga
      }
                        // LIQUID
      {
         map textures/liquids/pool3d_5.tga
         blendFunc GL_dst_color GL_one
         rgbgen identity
         tcmod scale .5 .5
         tcmod scroll -.05 .001
      }
   
      {
         map textures/liquids/pool3d_6.tga
         blendFunc GL_dst_color GL_one
         rgbgen identity
         tcmod scale .5 .5
         tcmod scroll .025 -.001
      }

      {
         map textures/liquids/pool3d_3.tga
         blendFunc GL_dst_color GL_one
         rgbgen identity
         tcmod scale .25 .5
         tcmod scroll .001 .025
      }   
      //GLASS EFFECT
      {
         map textures/effects/tinfx.tga
                        tcgen environment
         blendFunc GL_ONE GL_ONE
         rgbGen identity
      }

      {
         map $lightmap
         blendFunc filter
         //blendFunc GL_dst_color GL_zero
         rgbgen identity      
      }     
}


Hope it helps.



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Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 270
PostPosted: 03-01-2011 06:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It really look like the map is too bright. Look at the lighting brighness level on other maps. What I don't like is that you can see YA, GA, and MH from one spot - when you stand on upper level in MH room.



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Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 389
PostPosted: 03-01-2011 10:56 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow! Thanks so much for the compiling settings, cityy. I just love the shadow effects it produces, it looks very nice. -fast setting saves so much time, so thank you MuffinMan for that also.

Just one question: Anyone know where I can find Method`s sky shaders?



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Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 363
PostPosted: 03-01-2011 12:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Search for "meth" in skies.shader.




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surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1006
PostPosted: 03-01-2011 12:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote




Sent you the pm EmeraldTiger.



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