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Topic Starter Topic: j3st3r's New Layout

Warrior
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PostPosted: 07-28-2012 04:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Going for a small tourney for 1v1, maybe 3 play ffa. Need some input on the layout before I do the usual and concentrate on details and go room by room. Any input appreciated.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15159109/jstrnewlayout.zip




Last edited by AEon on 09-08-2012 12:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.Reason: Gave thread a slightly more meaningful title.

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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 01:22 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nothing against a quick map sketch, but the amount of useful feedback you will be able to get is directly proportional to the amount of preparation you put into what you hand out. Makes sense?

Please, in future, spend an additional 5 minutes to put your map into a .pk3 file, with .arena and .aas file (and a levelshot while at it) to let folks actually do more than walk the map, i.e. actually play the map against bots, to get a feeling for distances, heights, and layout in a FFA situation. Also note that defining what bots are supposed to play the map, also changes how the map is perceived. Many folks seem to use Xaero, to up the difficulty, but often many other bots are less frustrating and make better use of the items in the map, i.e. better navigate the map because the "prefer" certain items. Plus it helps you, see how bots navigate the map, early on "in the game" (e.g. do JPs work for them, do they go for all items).

I created the above mentioned pk3 , and was able to test the map a lot better, but most folks out there may not have bspc etc. at hand. Played against 3 bots in FFA (Doom, Visor, TankJr on Hardcore).

Regarding the map:
  • First impression is that the flow is good. Allows for several interesting paths on the different levels. The vertical gameplay looks promising.
  • I like the RG position, took me a while to notice it, meaning it is slightly off beaten path.
  • The 2x25H in water, as sound cue should also work. Since the MH is in the lowest part of the map I was wondering about dropping the floor here, for more water... might be interesting. Putting the MH almost on a small island... maybe.
  • Placement of the other items seemed to be OK.
  • The scale, at first felt a bit large on the upper level outside corridors with stairs, but with bots, it actually felt just right.
  • You might want to add a tad more detail, meaning textures (not really brushwork), to help the player orientate a bit better in the map, for more testing. Should not take up much time, but significantly improve orientation.

No idea if any of this actually helps...




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Grunt
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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 03:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


start from Map with q3map2toolz is easy.

Create the aas with this bat: "bspc -forcesidesvisible -bsp2aas jstrnewlayout.bsp"

"BSPC run time is 6 seconds" :D
---------------------------------------
gameplay with bots is good,
but the fps is always up and down. :(

map with other textures will not easy.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 06:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Shoulda included all necessary files. sorry for that. Link is updated with new file in pk3 form. Will show up in tournament menu for sp.




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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 06:23 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Good... I can see that you are going for Tourney... as FFA it worked pretty well and was fun though too.

Strange how q3map2 seems to have problems with these complexly interwoven maps, i.e. the vis is almost unblocked, and you can see most of the map from everywhere. Not a problem presently, but later with detail some good hinting will need to be done to avoid too high tris values.




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Grunt
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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 06:29 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


for textures

make a contrast map with a few textures

old time
by planetquake.com a contest with two textures.
that was cool :D




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 10:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Contrast added and jp markers, download updated.




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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 02:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You latest version stole all my delusions this might be a modern map ;)...

Some things:
  • textures/gothic_trim/metalblackwave01.TGA is missing in the pk3. Probably one of the textures that are part of the mapping dev pack, but not of vanilla q3a.
  • The MH JP has a bit of an overbounce, I normally like that, but a bit less would feel more "realistic", less height by ca. 32u.
  • Orientation is indeed easier now.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 03:32 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Not going for the gothic thing, just what I grabbed first. Was thinking more of an exploded crayola factory look! j/k Jp fixed and water added in that area as you first mentioned. Thank you for taking the time to try it.




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 07-29-2012 10:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Layout looks good (it has nice sniping opportunities without being too open), though the RA and MH positioning concerns me. You can literally see the MH from the RA position, and in CPM you can grab them in about 2 seconds flat, then perhaps the YA near the MH if it wasn't grabbed earlier. Seems like one could get stocked up way too fast imo. The RA and MH are also quite close on Aerowalk and Silence, but the former has the RA in an easy-to-attack ledge that's tricky to get to, and the latter has a MH tucked in a dead end which is very punishing if you're caught - here, it seems like one could easily escape the MH room by RJ'ing or whatever if no one's around to stop them. But perhaps a smart player could meet them at the JP at PG or at the tele exits if they try to escape using the teleporters. I believe it's worth mentioning either way, though.

When detailing comes, being able to trick-jump from the RG to the upper platform where the nearby staircase leads would be cool. Something I noticed when looking around.



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Grunt
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PostPosted: 07-30-2012 03:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


a download from map-charon3geo2.zip does not exist. :(

would good for inspiration for jstrnewlayout.




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Grunt
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PostPosted: 07-30-2012 04:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tanica46 wrote:
a download from map-charon3geo2.zip does not exist. :(

would good for inspiration for jstrnewlayout.


Somebody reuploaded this map, here's a link for it: http://www.blog.radiator.debacle.us/201 ... ld-by.html




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 07-31-2012 05:28 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


My thoughts on ra and mh were that one or the other could be bait if you were sitting at one or the other. Given the size of the map I think you would be able to get either pretty quick no matter the location. I am open to suggestions though. Due to the fact that the higher ground seems to have most of the weapons, I think I need to rethink the item layout anyways.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 08-04-2012 08:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Had some time to mess with the map a little. Changed around the items some what and added to the mh area. Same download as before just overwrite.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 08-05-2012 06:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Think I finally have a layout that seems like fun and competitive. Opinions or ideas welcome before I start fleshing out the details. Thank you for looking. Download same as above.




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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 04:55 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I know I am doing this all wrong, but I simply am no Tourney fan, so I played it in FFA against 3 bots.

  • IMO, the exit point for the TP near, under the RA is too low, or this is some sick strafe-jumping-gimmick that lets you get somewhere. Very annoying. I probably don't have the skill, but alone that would make me skip the map right there.
  • Personally I think the map has too many TPs. The default in most tourney maps is one pair. Four portals IMO is too much. Normally, I would imagine, the TPs are a distinct location indicator in tourney, with so many TPs you can always get "out" of where you are, and when trying to track the location of the other player by sound, the many TPs unnecessarily confuse the matter, IMO.
  • The RL could be placed more centrally... in the bend of the stairs you have to go out of your way too much, IMO.
  • The YA is good here, and I like that the RA is back.
  • The JP next to the YA, lets you 125FPS-jump from the YA directly to the top of the JP area. Only the left edge is too narrow, so that in full gameplay I always miss it. Cutting into the wall, to make that ledge at the left top of the JP wider would help.
  • Again, this is for dummies, but a slight ledge around the RG area, would make it easier to not miss the distance between RG and the other side (RA direction). Yes, dumbing things down ;)...
  • The GL TP exists at the MH... idea is not bad, since yesterday the MH was pretty much a dead end. I am not so sure that exiting a TP should automatically let you pick up something so easily. Should you not have to "fight" for the items like the RA and MH more in general? And in this case for the MH specifically?

No idea if any of this helps... but a few things above did tend to annoy me... but then again what do I know ;)




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 08-06-2012 03:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanx for taking a look, again. Ok, on to the fixes. I raised the tp exit near ra up so no jump is required to land on ledge. Swapped the lg with the rl to put it in a more open area. Not sure how you were making the jump by the ya. I tried several times and could not get it. So instead I pulled some blocks out a little on the wall. Added in a ledge to help with the jump for rg to ra area. As for the tp exit leading to mh, I was thinking this would discourage any camping there. I do see what you mean just not sure if I want to change it. Thank you again for taking the time to help me out, I appreciate it.




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PostPosted: 08-07-2012 07:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for actually taking the suggestions into consideration :). The TP to MH, is per se not really a problem, it's unusual, making me wonder if something like that has some repercussions... new version up already?




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PostPosted: 08-07-2012 09:46 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some screenshots should help explain what I had in mind and the jumps I mentioned:

    Image

a) Just to be sure: With com_maxfps 125 several jumps with edges are barely possible. The two green jumps are indicated. Come to think of it if someone wants to get to the PG more quickly, he would only bother with 2) if the YA is there, otherwise take 1) directly. In red I indicate the cutting out of the wall I was thinking of... not that this really needs to be done.

e) I like the red ledge, makes the jump a lot easier from the RG. Again run forwards and then flying press left or right strafe key to get that bit of extra distance you can make the jump without the ledge. Only in-fight I never do :)... for pro strafe-jumpers that get here already accelerated the jump is probably totally easy... I was thinking of adding the purple grate around the RG, much like the one you added above the LG, but your red one works just as well.

f) Coming from the SG, running either towards the RL or the LG I felt that those two paths on the ground floor where empty and too long. Especially the RL room. My suggestion: Drop the TP in the RL room about 32u or more, add maybe some steps (as hinted in purple). To make this area less flat and more interesting. Maybe add water here as well... or mone the water from the SG here.

  • Your three TPs now seem to be OK... one gets you a level up, another to the PG and a third to the MH... they all add an interesting continued gameflow. Though I personally would still try to drop one TP... though I have no idea which one, since the are all useful.
  • cityy told me in that online the PG is a lot less "useful". You might thus consider swapping the PG with the RL... that way the GL and RL (splash damage weapons) would not be above each other. Again... this is something I would be testing in FFA, and try it there. No idea if this improves anything here.

Hope that helps...

Update: Played FFA against Doom, Anarki, Daemia, and Bones on Hardcore that was really fun. The vertical action in the PG arena on the upper part is great. You jump to the PG, and in flight shoot the RG at the bots on the JP or coming from the RA. Teleports work well... I only need to remember where what TP gets me... the "enter the TP and get the MH most probably" is very convenient.

Be sure to add "FFA" to the arena file, since the map is a blast in FFA as well.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 08-07-2012 03:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thank you for the great suggestions. Only thing I didn't do was cut back on wall by ya. I did add some damage to the other side to better facilitate jumping there. You will see what I mean. I would like to change the lg area somewhat but not sure what to do with it atm. Download updated with changes.




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PostPosted: 08-07-2012 04:07 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some more thoughts on the layout:

  • The GL in the MH arena, swapped with the PG seems to work.
  • The dropped floor in the RL arena, IMO, looks nicer, makes that area a bit more interesting.
  • I like the "damage", this really makes that jump a lot easier.
  • The RG "grating", though not mandatory, is also nice.

  • Even though I like those rounded stairs, in some cases I do wonder why these would be used, some comments on those:
    • The stairs next to the LG (up to the YA) are useful, when e.g. coming from the MH (via TP) to then gain height again. I normally expect the JP to be located "under" the YA though. But your placement to the right is more interesting. I do catch myself "misusing" the JP to get directly to the YA via air control most of the time. Not really sure about this area, probably fine. Just mentioning this, in case you might have some idea here.
    • Now the stairs in the RL arena, leading up to the PG are more of a problem, IMO. First it looks a bit strange to JP into stairs, strictly visually. The bigger "issue" I see here though is that these stairs will almost never be used, because the TP next to the RL will get up to the top level much quicker. On TP exit you could turn 180° to get to the PG. Again, just mentioning this, I have no better idea, and I am not really sure this is an issue at all, but it occurred to me that I never use the JP here or the stairs.

  • This is a bit more experimental. When pathing I like to conserve a continuous path when possible, avoiding dead ends. Not necessarily the "best" or "only" way to do things, and probably makes pathing almost too predictable. Anyway:
    • One area I was looking at was the new GL spot. The wall you exit via TP from is such a dead end when you come from the 3x5H running towards the GL. I was thinking if it had any value to cut a hole into that wall, that then follows the LG stairs curving on a higher level, and ends on the level where the LG JP is. Just an idea, because the path is technically redundant, since you might as well jump down from the GL and take the LG stairs up again.
    • Another outer wall path I was thinking about was when standing in front of the LG JP, behind you in the wall, cut a path leading to the RL stairs to add a mid-level connect giving the RL stairs more meaning as part of an "outer ring" in the map. Again, restricting your options, like you already did, often is better than connecting everything. But this is something I would play around with (if this was my map) just to see if it helps or just adds to many connections.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 08-07-2012 07:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Added in the connection for lg jp to rl area. Also cut a hole in from gl to lg room but didn't wrap around steps. Still not sure here just made a little nook to jump to. I do like the new connection to rl though. Updated dl above as usual. Thanx for all the help here. Bots don't seem to give any good feedback.




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PostPosted: 08-08-2012 12:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Neat... did not think you would try that out. Hopefully my meddling with the map, idea-wise, is not interfering with your vision of the map. Be certain to revert to your ideas the second you see no value in the changes.

  • The break in the wall above the MH looks a bit strange (no wonder since it was a quick cut), but I like how the path there is continued. Personally I'd like to exit around the JP, thus lengthening the path, continuing an outer ring, making it less cut off (you have to jump down), but this helps already.
  • The LG JP to RA stairs now feels much smoother and natural, it is actually "fun" to run up the stairs now. Completely dropping the RL JP, at first looked like a mistake, but since the RL TP gets you "out of there", dropping the RL JP was a good thing. The passage between YA JP and the RL stairs still needs something to make that passage relevant...
    • My first thought was to put the LG there, but then again not.
    • Another thought was to put the YA there. That might work, making that path quite relevant. Though I like the present YA placement now as well. Might be worth thinking about though.
    • The least disrupting thing to do is move the over-itemized RL area, the 3x5A + 2x5H into that passage instead, and to keep the RL nice and cleanly in the current location.
    • Finally, a new 50H in that passage might also be a possibility.

  • A general comment: I like all the upper level stairs and pathing a lot: RA to RG to the GL to the corner with the 5Hs... here the flow breaks, because you have to jump down. The path RA to the PG the upper TP and YA and the damaged wall, down to the RG, and back to the GL all this is fun to run through and works well. The fights with the bots here are very interesting.
  • IMO, the problem is still the lower level... something needs to be done to make the player *like* running around down there as well... maybe try to get some light into there (windows?)... something to make the lower area less claustrophobic. I am a bit of a water-phobe, so the water does not really help the RL area in that respect. What do we have down there: The MH (important), the RL, you will go for that, the SG (OK), the LG even and two TPs (leading up, and exiting near the GL)... hmm... should make the lower area relevant.
  • Interesting how there is almost nothing relevant on the top-most level (25H IIRC, and ammo?), but this area still seems to be the central connecting hub up here.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 08-08-2012 03:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Layout updated once again, eventually I might get it right. Extended the cutout around to the jp and moved a few things around.I also added in another rl though not sure if map can support it. Download updated.




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PostPosted: 08-09-2012 12:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quick notes:
  • Interesting path from the 2nd RL to the LG JP, the around the corner path is clever... makes me a bit dizzy through to take the corner that sharply. The LG placement is better now. The 25H in the former LG place is "tricky" to get so will make the player think if it is worth getting... a good thing.
  • The GL grating around the top floor... in one corner you can fall through the grating, missing some clipping apparently.
  • The curved ceiling above the LG might need to be moved up a bit more, to not bump your head when you jump down from the GL to the LG.
  • This is a divergence from your other path widths, but it could work to make the curved path of the LG about 25% less wide, to give that path a slightly more special outer ring "precariousness", i.e. you need to better pay attention when running along it.
  • 2nd RL... need to test that some more... but could work.
  • Noting that the mean reason to jump into the lower area of the map is to replenish health. Not bad in concept.
  • I'd swap the 50H in the LG stairs to the RL stairs path with the YA though. The 50H does certainly have "pull", but personally I'd use that path a *lot* more to get the extra armour. And two of the 5H around the LG could also move around the YA there, to give the player in that passage more to "collect".
  • GL on top level of the map is a good choice IMO.
  • 1st RL area with TP, still not sure what can be done here to make the area more attractive... catching myself looking for a JP... an alternative would be to make this whole area smaller... i.e. move the PG, RL, TP and stairs towards the YA by about 30%... this would make the arena smaller and less "empty". The path RA to PG would then go around a corner, which could be a good thing to have less of a direct line of sight from the PG to the RA.

Need to play the map some more to see how the present layout works.

Update:
  • One small note about clipping and bots. I watched Anarki run up the RL stairs (not the MH RL), the bot was taking the inside of the stair steps and getting snagged. I never used such rounded stairs, so I am not sure how to properly clip those when you go into detailing later.

Update 2:
  • The new LG arena has turned out really well, it is fun to play there and the bots take to it well also.
  • The 50H in the LG JP to RA stairs corridor also works really well. The bots and I go for that health there.
  • I actually saw Anarki jump from the YA, using the wall step to get to the GL... nifty. I still wish the left side of the YA JP (where you added the step) was at least 8u wider though.




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 08-09-2012 11:44 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Little update to the layout. I got rid of 1 more tele and added in a jp by the rl.




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PostPosted: 08-09-2012 01:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some notes:
  • Strange how relatively simple things can still be special because they are used so rarely: Here the 45° angled RL JP... I like it... especially since it replaces a TP... and it also lets you get out of the RL pit again in a clear way (TPs are always guesswork).
  • The more narrow LG ledge/path gives the room an interesting look IMO, so that should have improved things.

  • Again something I have been seeing a few versions but never commented on. The stairs in the RL arena (not the MH RL) are quite long (meaning many steps), begin straight then curve into the wall. I was thinking that it might benefit the LG arena, probably opposite the LG JP in the corridor leading to the RL arena, to use the first 5-6 steps to lift the corridor up by just that amount. The plus sides: The LG JP area stairs coming up, LG on same level, JP same level, and the corridor would not all be on the very same height. But the bigger advantage would be fixing the strange situation in the RL arena where the first few steps exiting the corridor are indeed steps... now there would be a flat area to jump into the JP pit, and not jump from steps. (Hope that was sorta clear). The bots also snag slightly when trying to jump from steps down to the RL.
  • I know, it was my idea, but if the latter idea, lift the corridor earlier leading to the RL arena is done, that would make the RL pit deeper... so lifting the floor by about 64u... also lifting the JP would make that area less gloomy (and deep).

  • Another wild idea... the RA corner looks a bit empty as well. Maybe a narrow path along the wall corner, width of the LG one approximately, with steps on both sides of the corner, with the RA then slightly above the ground, in that corner could help that area. (Just a thought.) If unclear I can post a screenshot.


Thinking about the various arenas:
  • The MH arena was the first one to work really well... jumps from the GL level to the RL while shooting in the RA direction corridor or on those coming up on the JP is fun. I hope you will be able to find a nice design choice for the MH corner... personally I find it ugly... but this is just a "sketch"... so...
  • With the outer ring the LG arena also has some interesting vertical fighting... you can come from the RL (MH one), from the MH, or from the RL corridor, the YA, the GL.
  • The RL arena also has several entrances, and jumps from the TP to the stairs, or from the PG to them or down to the RL should also be interesting.
  • The SG area was complex to begin with... from GL, from RG, from JP, above TP etc...
So all the vertical fighting in the various arenas should be interesting now, I think :).




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Warrior
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PostPosted: 08-09-2012 06:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think I have the ra area figured out. Problem is I'm not sure about mh now, never ends. I also added in a little something by ya to help in the jump to gl. Give it a peak and let me know. Thank you for your time and help!




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PostPosted: 08-09-2012 10:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


  • Interesting reinterpretation of the RA area... better than my suggestion. The RA now on a med-level is a good idea, I think, since that motivates the player to step down from then upper level ring. Strange that the bots now roam this area so frequently.
  • The cutting into the RA wall, thus removing the need of a JP is a good thing. I noted that Anarki and Bones cannot make it past the RA via that crack in the wall, Doom and Daemia have no problem though.
  • Might be a good thing to add some "bot help" via bot clip steps (only bot clip), to make it easier for the bots to navigate:
    • The crack next to the RA.
    • The cube step next to the YA.
    • The PG to GL crack in the top level floor's side.
    Nothing huge, but just large enough to let the bots take the paths as well. For players things would stay as the are.

  • The lifted up RL arena floor now feels a lot more friendly.
  • The lifted corridor (LG to PG) also seems to work well.
  • The YA cube step, now lets the player, quickly jump on the cube to then reach the top of the JP in a second quick jump. With a 125-FPS-Jump that used to be possibly in one jump. Your solution is probably "friendlier" though.
  • The 2nd RL placed in the corner near the MH JP is now further away from the LG, that is probably a good thing too.

  • I am not so sure placing ammo boxes right in front of TPs (i.e. the upper TP exiting at the MH) is such a good thing... one should make players run for the ammo more, IMO. And there is a lot a space around on the PG level of the map to place them elsewhere here. This might also be confusing the bots. I have yet to see a bot use the upper TP to get at the MH, they always grab the MH coming from the SG or LG areas.
  • No idea if this is a possible intent... but potentially many corners could still be rounded off, e.g. when from LG into the corridor leading to the PG, or the corner where the 2nd RL is and several other places... not sure if this would be overdoing things though.
  • You might try to add some grating right above the MH letting the player look down from the upper path (where the 2nd RL is) to check if the MH is presently there or not. Letting some light in from the top, might then also make the MH area more "friendly".

And I thought I had nothing more to suggest... oops :-P




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Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 97
PostPosted: 08-10-2012 06:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Changed up the mh area. Trying to give the player more room to move there. I do have clips by all places mentioned. It seems that it depends on which bot you use as to whether they actually can or will go the optional paths. There is now a bot_roam on the tp to the mh and bots do use it frequently. I did try to move some of the ammo around somewhat also. The next area I think might need something is the 50 hallway. Not sure if anything can be done other than the detailing. Maybe switch the 50 with the ya?




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Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: 08-11-2012 12:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Notes:
  • I like the new MH area... it gives the player room, plus defends the MH area somewhat. The TP exit lets you move in a fluid way out of there over to the LG stairs.
  • A skylight (a grate under the RL above) letting in some light, IMO, would still benefit the MH... it needs some sun :). Personally I'd love if the corner behind the RL up here would crumble and let if a *lot* of light.
  • The 45° new JP in the MH arena again looks nice, and spiffs up that area, much like the one for the PG arena did.
  • Personally I am very very careful with bot_roam because that usually messes up the overall roaming. But if it works then that is fine.
  • I'd still move the two ammo crates away from the front of the upper TP leading to the MH, visually they keep implying "you are going to stumble over them", they are like a small barrier, making the TP less inviting.
  • The YA... yeah... you could give it a try to swap it with the 50H in the corridor. And replace the 50H with a 25H where the YA presently is. To keep the health mostly in the lower part of the map. Around the YA in the corridor, you could move the 2xShards. And keep the LG plain without shards.
  • To add a little something on the 50H-PG stairs you could add 3x5H here.
  • Thinking about it some more... I think I prefer a small JP at the RA instead of the crack in the wall. Move the RA a bit more away from the JP, should you do that.
  • The ammo boxes next to the RA... deco-wise placing them along the wall (top of the to be JP), probably in the corner, where the RA used to be in the early versions, might be better. Presently the ammo looks cramped in the small RA pit, IMO.
  • Overall the placement of items will need several final passes anyway when you have added all the detail...

  • I am thinking about the placement of the RA TP... if another place could not be better. But the quick path up from the SG is useful and makes sense here. The question is though, what happens if one were to drop the TP here altogether. You would have to either go the RA path via wall damage/JP, and several stairs to get up to the GL, or take the RA path via MH arena again via many stairs, or use the PG JP and wall damage jump, or via LG stairs and JP, or Rocketjump. Those paths would all take quite a long time (except the RJ). Dropping the TP would on the other hand make all those paths much more relevant, since the TP is the quick lazy path that would almost always be preferred.

    It occurred to me that top level (GL) camping would make it difficult to get up there from the lower level without the TP. But then again all the good stuff RA, MH, YA (probably if that is moved), and most of the health is on the lower level so whoever camps up there will have to come down at some point. Up to you.

Every time I think that was all to comment on... but I think the map is pretty much there and ready for detailing. Thinking back the map had a good layout to start with, but the changes, MH path, the 45° JPs, the outer wall paths from MH arena, via LG to the PG arena improved the flow of the map. So it should have been worth the effort.




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Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 97
PostPosted: 08-12-2012 06:08 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I moved the tele by ra away somewhat. Not sure if I'm digging the new location though. Maybe I should just drop it all together. I do like the idea of it creating an anti-camping element. The jp by ra is not a bad idea but I think I am going to stick with the broken wall atm. I like the looks of it. Moved some other stuff around and put in the grate above mh. I meant to do that last time but left it out. Thank you again for the help Aeon. Download updated.




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Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 08-12-2012 10:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think that pretty much should sum up what can be done to the map (note the ominous wording :toothy:):
  • Only thing that might still be done is lift the ceiling above the LG, to not bump into it when you jump from the GL towards the LG.
  • I still hope you will add some outside views to the map, especially around the upper RL. This would allow for more light in the map, and let you look at pretty scenery (or skybox).
  • Generally I am still seeing quite a few connecting corridors that are empty to one degree or another. But placing items for deco should quite certainly not be the way to go. So more testing in the future will probably make clear were something could be placed or needed. Not meant to result in changes:
    • The MH arena's highest level 90° rounded platform letting you look down, feels a bit empty.
    • Corridor from upper RL to the ammo in the RA corner, is also empty.
    • Corridor RA ammo corner to the PG and GL stairs are also empty.

Works:
  • I like the Quake'ish grating above the MH.
  • The ammo and 5H, 5A etc. you moved all now look fine. Obviously once the detail is in one might rethink some things... but for now its OK.
  • The RA damaged wall, indeed is also fine.

Off off and away to detailing... :)

I am really excited to see what you plan to do detailing-wise.




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Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 97
PostPosted: 08-15-2012 03:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I was running around in the map this morning and had an idea to remove 1 of the long los areas. Not sure if this helps or hurts but does change the flow of the map. I had to move some of the items around to work with the new change. Download updated.




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Boink!
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Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 08-15-2012 07:34 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Interesting...
  • The connection RA TP the upper corridor feels smooth. And gets you up there since the damaged wall stepping stone is gone. From a gameflow point of view it is a bit of a back and forth from the lower level, you go for the RA, need to backtrack to the TP to get to the upper level and continue e.g. to the RG.
  • The RA TP fits into that niche, but I am wondering if it might be placed more to the left where the double 25H are. No idea though.

  • I think your wall breakthrough from the RA TP to the LG JP adds a very interesting stairs path that is fun and fluid to navigate. Makes the LG JP now a quite central navigation hub, replacing the boring direct path RA to LG.
  • The corridor LG JP to the (lower) RL stairs with the 4x5H now almost seems to be redundant, item-wise. To give the corridor meaning, something significant should be placed here. I have to admit I liked the 5H on the stairs and YA here. But your change with YA is also valid (see next point). Maybe put the SG into that corridor and some "important ammo", and move the 5H back on the (lower) RL stairs.

  • Thought: What if that corridor was completely dropped, along with the stairs in the (lower) RL area. One would lose an outside path from the LG to the RL, but would still have the central lower path, or via LG JP and YA, i.e. to get to the PG. Maybe you give this a moments though. Personally I like the corridors fluidity, but it has to have a significant function.
    • Though expanded. If the corridor is closed and the you only go down a few (e.g. 8) steps maybe from the PG, then straight, one could still jump from the JP/PG side to the other wall as well. Now here the idea, rotate the TP up here 90° (CCW), and put it on the wall that you run into when running down the PG stairs. This would put the the TP and thus the MH at the end of a "dead end", and not quite as unmotivated right next to the YA. Might work. This is similar in concept to what you used to have in the MH arena, where one used to exit to walk into the PG. Be interesting to see what you think.

  • At first I was wondering what the YA grate was doing above the floor, then I looked at the central connecting corridor under it. To better make the grate fit on the upper floor, you should add two steps on the PG side. Presently the grate's edge is sticking out of the floor too much.
  • The wider upper flanks of the LG JP I like, had suggested them very early. Lets you directly jump from the YA grate onto the left flank without too much difficultly. So that is very fluid. Good.
  • Lift up the ceiling above the LG, to not bump your head when jumping down from the GL? Or 45° angle cut into the ceiling to not bump into the present edge of the ceiling.

Some changes lead to more suggestions apparently.




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