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Topic Starter Topic: id Software Releases id Studio

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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 09:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


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Quote:
Later today on Steam we will be releasing the official tool kit for RAGE – the same tools used to create RAGE and it’s DLC, The Scorchers. From the game’s world building tool, idStudio, to game maps and assets, the kit provides everything you need to get started with modding the first-ever idTech 5 title.

Interested? Before you start downloading the hefty 35+ GB file, the RAGE team has provided some documents to read. As described in the welcome document, these tools provided are complex and aimed towards “technically sophisticated and adventurous” modders.


We probably won't be seeing too many mod projects given the hefty amount of resources, manpower and processing required to create quality work, but at least it'll be interesting for those brave enough to tinker with the development tools.

There's also a few rather daunting tweets from John Carmack:

Quote:
The toolkit release is not something that we consider consumer friendly, but it does let you get a look inside the construction process...

Doing significant work will require patience, because internally we use a 300 core renderfarm for megatexture creation.


Maybe the modding community could work out some kind of "folding" network.




Read the official announcement and download the documents.



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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 12:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Too little too late



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Glayven?
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 01:17 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
Quote:
Interested? Before you start downloading the hefty 35+ GB file, the RAGE team has provided some documents to read. As described in the welcome document, these tools provided are complex and aimed towards “technically sophisticated and adventurous” modders.


There's also a few rather daunting tweets from John Carmack:

Quote:
The toolkit release is not something that we consider consumer friendly, but it does let you get a look inside the construction process...


LOL!!!

Now people will know how frustrating a professional Level Design job can be when you're constantly dealing with broken or half-created tools. :smirk:

Seriously folks, if you have the patience to use these tools and create something at a decent quality and still have the mental fortitude to not strangle tools programmers on sight, then perhaps you're the right fit for being in the games industry. :)




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I'm the dude!
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 04:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think the context in which Carmack is referring to is the sheer amount of assets that is required to actually build a decent map that is on par with the levels of Rage are exceptionally high. As far as tools go, GtkRadiant is pretty bloody bare bones, there isn't anything by way of script editors, asset management, even compiling generally requires the designer to write his own batch file. id Studio does have all those tools built in but it is still harder to build a map for Rage than it is for Quake 3 even though a level designer working on Quake 3 has to jump through a million hoops.



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Trainee
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 04:41 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


35 gb really? does it come with all the art assets?

And nothing can scare old school mappers who used to deal with IDs tools running vis and light for weeks! (ok, DromEd can)



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Immortal
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 05:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


installing




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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 06:19 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Does this require a 64 bit computer, I seem to remember reading it did. I'm still on a system that is 32 bits short of the mark if that's the case.




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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 08:02 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I don't know about that, 64-bit is on the recommended system requirements, but I don't see anywhere listed that it's a must.

It's mentioned in the documentation that if you want to run mods without installing the SDK, then you will need to download and run the 64-bit version of the game executable.



Personally, I'm interested in tinkering with this but the hard drive where I have Steam installed is sitting on a 240GB RAID volume with 6.5GB of free space. Looks like I'll have to invest in some new hard drives soon unless I start deleting games. Dammit Steam and your sales.



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Glayven?
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 08:20 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
Dammit Steam and your sales.


Hint: You can "delete local content" of games you're not playing and then simply reinstall/redownload with a click. I've cleared a shit-ton of HD space and if I ever want to play Modern Warfare/Arkham City/Entire HL Product Line/Driver SF/Skyrim/Deus Ex:HR/etc again (holy shit my Steam list is almost as long as my pecker) I just wait 5 minutes. :up:




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I'm the dude!
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 09:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


No shit? I didn't already know that with my collection of 169 games on Steam (yes, I really do have that many games). :dork:



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Glayven?
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PostPosted: 02-08-2013 09:27 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


nerd

(I only have 33)




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Boink!
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PostPosted: 02-09-2013 12:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Off topic: Steam cloud, when supported by the game will even remember your save (game files) state . Though I would recommend looking up where the save games are stored locally and backup those manually before you deinstall any game. E.g. for RPGs like Witcher. For Valve games (Half-Life 2 engine) the local configs (autoexec.cfg etc.) should you have custom ones, are left behind locally and not deleted. (I have 125 games, 35 installed presently, over 10 to play, including 3 of the Stalker RPG series, sigh, wonder when and I will ever play those. Max Payne 3, Witcher II, Prototype, and Ridge Racer Unbounded also on the unplayed list.)

On topic: Very interesting thread... keep us posted how things work out. It seems to me a really large SSD drive for the SDK would be a good thing to have (in the 300+GB region; mine is only 80 GB with Win7 on it, so nothing doing). USB 3.0 and a fast 2 TB external drive might be recommendable as well, I have the 2 TB drive but not USB 3.0 (main board is 34 months old, USB 2.0 is not really fast enough for large files).




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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 02-09-2013 12:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I've not, and never will, buy a game from Steam. I only own about 5 games on Steam, all either free or bought for me.




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foolproof
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PostPosted: 02-09-2013 07:34 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I appreciate id releasing the dev kit, and I'm going to mess around with it a bit.
However, with id tech 3 you could relatively easily develop maps on your own.
But for this tech to be used to its full potential, you really need a large collaborating team.

Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I don't think id tech 5 will be used a lot.
Especially seeing how a lot of devs succesfully use the unreal engine.




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Glayven?
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PostPosted: 02-09-2013 09:12 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
Off topic: Steam cloud, when supported by the game will even remember your save (game files) state . Though I would recommend looking up where the save games are stored locally and backup those manually before you deinstall any game. E.g. for RPGs like Witcher. For Valve games (Half-Life 2 engine) the local configs (autoexec.cfg etc.) should you have custom ones, are left behind locally and not deleted. (I have 125 games, 35 installed presently, over 10 to play, including 3 of the Stalker RPG series, sigh, wonder when and I will ever play those. Max Payne 3, Witcher II, Prototype, and Ridge Racer Unbounded also on the unplayed list.)

On topic: Very interesting thread... keep us posted how things work out. It seems to me a really large SSD drive for the SDK would be a good thing to have (in the 300+GB region; mine is only 80 GB with Win7 on it, so nothing doing). USB 3.0 and a fast 2 TB external drive might be recommendable as well, I have the 2 TB drive but not USB 3.0 (main board is 34 months old, USB 2.0 is not really fast enough for large files).


I love Steam's cloud as it allowed me to play Skyrim both at home and at work without missing a beat.

Regarding the SSD...hell yeah I recommend them with modern/next gen editors. It halved my load times to under 10 minutes. ;)
I'm guessing loading large maps with this SDK will also take a while.




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Boink!
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PostPosted: 02-09-2013 12:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Plan B,
the question probably is: Does a dev team want to use a "normal" amount of time to create content that looks "pretty much detailed", or do they want to "waste" an unforgivable amount of time on "excessively detailed" (beautiful, I admit) content.

I suspect that many dev teams will shy away from requiring that much man/woman-power to get something looking that good. This will be even more true for mod teams.

Rage still has that "wow, I cannot believe this level of texture detail"-factor, but will that entice folks to go for it? As a player, I would love to see more games using that engine, but other than id titles I don't expect that to happen.

On hardware: I "only" have 6 GB RAM. I am guessing the SDK will take all and any RAM you have, so 12 GB or more may not be optional, but more of a must?




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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 02-09-2013 10:20 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think I might be being dumb, but I really can't find this in the steam tools section at all




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True Nightmare
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PostPosted: 02-09-2013 10:39 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Keep in mind that if you were to do something serious, the licensing terms we've been used to are different.. if you publish, you grant Bethesda an unrestricted license to do what they want with the material; iirc that's not been the case with previous id games(?), they own the game assets (naturally) but have never laid claim to our creations (caveat: this needs to be double-checked but I've not found anything contrary to that as of yet).

And .. hullooo *waves*



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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 02-09-2013 11:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


*waves* back at Kat.
Still no Rage tool kit in the tools section. Seems like I'm not the only one with the same problem. Is it maybe not available in all regions?
//edit: just found my own answer. It's not rolled out in all regions yet.
On a side note, an official press release that writes: 'it's DLC' WTF!!!!!!!




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Eh?
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 04:33 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Lovely tools, really nice.

But slow as shit, to the point where average joe, slightly experienced joe and even joe the mod builder, really wont give a shit :(

I like to think I'm fairly experienced with all this, and have a great rig... But oh boy, did this knock me down a peg or seven...




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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 06:05 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


:/




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foolproof
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 09:38 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
Plan B,
the question probably is: Does a dev team want to use a "normal" amount of time to create content that looks "pretty much detailed", or do they want to "waste" an unforgivable amount of time on "excessively detailed" (beautiful, I admit) content.

I suspect that many dev teams will shy away from requiring that much man/woman-power to get something looking that good. This will be even more true for mod teams.

Rage still has that "wow, I cannot believe this level of texture detail"-factor, but will that entice folks to go for it? As a player, I would love to see more games using that engine, but other than id titles I don't expect that to happen.

On hardware: I "only" have 6 GB RAM. I am guessing the SDK will take all and any RAM you have, so 12 GB or more may not be optional, but more of a must?



What it all boils down to; I'm afraid it's just not worth investing a lot of time on developing for id tech 5.
Mainly because system requirements are ridiculous; You need a fucking crunch farm to get your shit compiled.
What I expect to see is some simple individually developed maps, just to see what the tech is all about. Box maps, nothing serious.
That's a shame. Carmack should have focussed on making id's latest tech more accessible.




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foolproof
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 09:44 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kat wrote:
Keep in mind that if you were to do something serious, the licensing terms we've been used to are different.. if you publish, you grant Bethesda an unrestricted license to do what they want with the material; iirc that's not been the case with previous id games(?), they own the game assets (naturally) but have never laid claim to our creations (caveat: this needs to be double-checked but I've not found anything contrary to that as of yet).

And .. hullooo *waves*


Sure, seems like a dick move.
But if they're just preemptively covering their ass for releasing a fanmade map pack, I have no problem with it.

Plus: Hi Kat :)




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 11:32 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Plan B wrote:
What it all boils down to; I'm afraid it's just not worth investing a lot of time on developing for id tech 5.
Mainly because system requirements are ridiculous; You need a fucking crunch farm to get your shit compiled.
What I expect to see is some simple individually developed maps, just to see what the tech is all about. Box maps, nothing serious.
That's a shame. Carmack should have focussed on making id's latest tech more accessible.

For professional big budget teams the engine is accessible. It takes away a number of limitations that have always been hurdles to take in game development. That you require a 50 man team and a super computer to build content is a minor detail for AAA studios.

Also, the problem of content creation taking an increasing amount of time is something that has been going on since the 90's. Look at the amount of work it takes to create a Wolf3D map and compare that so a Q3 map. Rage is just yet another step up. It's inevitable as games become more realistic and detailed.




Last edited by Eraser on 02-11-2013 12:00 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Trainee
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 12:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Might be worth noting that it's not likely any studios outside of the Zenimax family will ever use idtech5 anyway, since they are no longer liscensing their engines. Even so, I'm excited to see what comes out of it. Hopefully Doom 4 (if it ever gets done) will have a good multiplayer scene for custom maps. Will definitely check it out myself once i get time (however far off that may be :)).




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axbaby
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 08:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


a lot of effort for something no one will play.



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 10:18 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Despair wrote:
Might be worth noting that it's not likely any studios outside of the Zenimax family will ever use idtech5 anyway, since they are no longer liscensing their engines.

It worries me somewhat to see id Software restricted like this. Especially now with the EULA that comes with the editor, which I'm 100% sure doesn't come from id Software but from Bethesda.




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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 11:42 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


o'dium wrote:
... and have a great rig...

Mind listing your hardware to give us a pointer how bad things are?
(I have a i7 920 2.54GHz, 6 GB, ATi HD 5850, and suspect that would not nearly be fast enough.)


Eraser,
yeah, the evermore resource hungry path of content creation is indeed a long-ongoing trend. But I did have the impression (wishful thinking probably), that id Tech 5 would not only allow for unprecedented texture detail, but also would show more efficiency at doing so. Meaning, if you used e.g. Unreal Engine 3, trying to get that or similar detail it would set you back time-wise *a lot more*. So that you would actually be saving time, manpower and money using id Tech 5. Again provided you wanted a certain "high" level of texture detail. But I may have misinterpreted all this. I recently played a few Unreal Engine 3 games, and they did look "outdated" after playing Rage. Oh well... just some speculation on my part.

Put differently, I am hoping for the industry's sake, that some level of efficiency can be attained by newer tech, to bring down the overall costs, or things will not bode well for the future. Or things will go the Hollywood way... mediocre games, excessively overproduced, but not much fun or creative, and really really expensive to create.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-11-2013 12:00 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


id Tech 5 does offer advantages if you're working on a big title for multiple platforms, because the content pipeline is identical for each platform. The engine takes responsibility of memory management away from designers as well, because they can put as much detail in as they like because of the MegaTexture technology. So in that aspect, it takes away some limits for the creative people and because they work with one set of content for all platforms, there's no need in doing the same thing twice because of differences in platform specifications. I guess these are all huge time savers when developing a triple-A title for PC, XBox 360 and PS3. The entry level requirements have just exploded though, which makes it hard for amateur level designers to get into it.

Having said all that, I wouldn't at all be surprised if we do get one or two custom levels out of it. If there's one thing I learned from the Internet is that there's a lot of people with a lot of free time.




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The Illuminated
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PostPosted: 02-11-2013 04:05 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Taken from the EULA

Quote:
If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit.

I think this is the first time I have seen the EULA give away (creators) rights, anyone creating and releasing content will have no right over their creation. Besides the restrictive rights of use, I imagine this is a good tool for someone wanting to enhance their portfolio or show they can / understand new technology. The editor will certainly require a huge amount of time to learn but the end results can be spectacular compared to other engines.



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PostPosted: 02-11-2013 07:59 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


What is often the case is that some overzealous lawyer drafted/copy-pasted the EULA with limited oversight from id Software or Bethesda. I'm not entirely sure that's the case here, but just wanted to point out that that is a common issue with lawyers - they would rather cover all contingencies than to be practical. Hopefully id/Bethesda takes a closer look at the license and revises it.



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-11-2013 11:10 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You often see licenses like this so they can use user created content in promotional material, so they xan show examples of what can be done with the tools




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Glayven?
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PostPosted: 02-11-2013 02:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I've seen licenses that state they have the right to have user created content for promotions, but I've NEVER heard of a license that says they own whatever you make.

I honestly doubt this is an oversight by id/Bethesda, and for that reason I have no interest in trying their toolset. I mean seriously...who comes out of the gate like this?




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True Nightmare
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PostPosted: 02-11-2013 10:30 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Aye it's not an oversight... it's been specifically worded the way it has for the purpose it states. In other words, if they were doing it for the reason Eraser suggested, the language would be very different, it would be more akin to "you own, we ask".. right now it's "you publish, we own" (where 'own' means having the ability to do "whatever you want" with something).

For the Doom 3 and Quake 4 level design competitions for example, id had to seek our permission before our work could be distributed, it wasn't an automatic "grant of right", they had to specifically ask (not forgetting we couldn't use custom models because id couldn't be sure the they were original creations). So yeah.. whilst it might be 'nice', you'd be better off putting that time and effort into something that would benefit you more.



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-12-2013 12:43 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That may be true, but I've seen similar things in EULA's from Nintendo and recently Instagram.




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