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Topic Starter Topic: [ALPHA 4] CZQ3DM1 by CZghost

The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-08-2013 08:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


CZQ3DM1 by CZghost
ALPHA 1
Minimum use of textures, no music, included only sounds for plats to avoid missing sound beeps, included aas file for testing botplay
Known issues: It's possible to see some parts of map through a sky shader, spectators looking out of the window can see HOM effect, death pit fog juncs inside and parts of curves inside fog brush are fully visible in each depth of fog
I included grenades trap in RL chamber to give players more action, it activates five times with a delay of second by grabbing a powerup. You will have to escape the chamber quickly or you'll die on a grenade fired from grenade launchers on pillars. I used custom brush markers under weapons and pickup items like powerups, MH, holdable, YA and RA.
Spectators can get inside RL chamber through the doors (used classic portal doors they appear in normal quake3 maps)
Map is symmetrical.

Download ALPHA 1

Screenshots:
Image
Levelshot used for A1


Source screenshot used for levelshot making; main atrium at upper level


Lower level at deathpit location


Holdable PT and medkit teamed detail (deathpit location)


Railgun in DP location


Route split; RA with MH teamed


RL chamber; grenades trap with QD and Regeneration teamed powerups they activate the trap


Upper level, RA detail; teleportation to RL chamber


Plats connecting lower level with upper level


Detail to plat tunnel with SHs

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: ALPHA 4 download
Completely reworked map, no known bugs, if you find some, let me know. Screenshots for ALPHA 4 are on the page 2.

Download: ZIP (540 kB)



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Last edited by CZghost on 12-08-2014 07:30 AM, edited 4 times in total.

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visual prowess
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PostPosted: 10-08-2013 04:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Is this map meant to be played on VQ3 or CPM physics? I have a few suggestions if its CPM, after running around on it for a bit.



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 10-08-2013 11:16 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


CZghost wrote:

Lower level at deathpit location


This room shows a lot of potential. If dressed up nicely, it could look great.
Are you going to make it like a natural cave with the structures built into the walls? That'd be cool.




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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-09-2013 04:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Bacon wrote:
Is this map meant to be played on VQ3 or CPM physics? I have a few suggestions if its CPM, after running around on it for a bit.
It's suggested to play on VQ3, but you can use CPM as well. If you have suggestions to improve map for CPM physics, let's write ;)

Eraser wrote:
This room shows a lot of potential. If dressed up nicely, it could look great.
Are you going to make it like a natural cave with the structures built into the walls? That'd be cool.
It's good idea, I will see :) Now I must take plenty notes on layout :)



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visual prowess
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PostPosted: 10-09-2013 10:42 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


-The map feels too small. I don't mean the layout itself, just the sizes of hallways and some rooms feel like they should be bigger. Mabye scaling the entire map a bit bigger would help.

-There's too many "dead ends". Here's one example:



I put "dead ends" in quotes because this isn't really one, but it feels like it. When coming from the top it completely stops map flow and just seems like there should be a hallway where I marked or somewhere else to go, other than a dead stop. Either that or putting a slope there to make you not come to a dead stop. In CPM it's just nice to be able to run around the map without having to come to complete stop.

Like I said, I wasn't sure if it was for CPM or not, because if its meant for VQ3 as well you don't really need to do the extra hallways. I still feel that some places should be a bit less cramped though.



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 10-09-2013 11:26 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Alright let's be honest now...
* The gameplay is almost entirely horizontal. This will make it utterly boring to play since jockying for position will be taken completely out of the equation.
* The upper level is just a box with teles on either side. The least you could do put some kind of obstruction in the middle of the room to break up the line of sight/provide cover.
* Item layout is a mess: you can get RL + Quad/Regen + MEGA/RA within 2 seconds.
* Symmetry is not necessarily a bad thing but a map can always be better without it as it makes games more dynamic.

There's more but I'd recommend rebuilding from scratch with the above in mind.

Stairways, jumppads, platforms... they all help to add variation to the map. Higher spots make the RL more effective, lower spots and/or lack of connectivity make you more vulnerable and are thus good spots for placing high value items (Mega/RA/Quad). More connectivity is needed in choke points/busy mid sections of a map.

Try to avoid placing high value items together... RL + Quad is alright though as long as there are not other high value items around in the area.




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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-10-2013 04:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@muffin:
So I must remake the map to get all these values (or at least most of them) in effect?
Okay. I will add some stairs, jumppads and break up some connectivity points with one goal: the deathpit room will stay almost unchanged since it's prepared to improve in another manner...

@bacon:
Well, I'll improve it for CPM as well, since I will already remake almost entire map :)

Thank you all for quick feedback :)



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-12-2013 02:45 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Having troubles with BSPC, it just discards compile with a message my map is leaked. I have no idea what's wrong in my map. I tried to cut some triggers in death pit, made some trigger brushes detail, checked if any entity is outside world or inside a structural brush, negative...

What to do to have AAS file valid for the map?



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Commander
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PostPosted: 10-12-2013 04:07 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


iirc when compiling a leak map a .lin file is created. Load this in your map in gtk, a blue line appears, follow it to find the leak...



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Veteran
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PostPosted: 10-12-2013 05:30 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote




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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-12-2013 08:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@Takkie: I compiled with Q3Map2Toolz and normal BSP file was created. No LIN file... I should try to compile with leaktest?

@D-Meat: I quite do not understand the mean of your link. I do not try to compile AAS file from too large BSP. I have troubles with AAS compile when BSPC returns error message of leaked map.

I will take a look later, now it's time to shut down...



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True Nightmare
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PostPosted: 10-12-2013 09:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If you're compiling the bsp using the -meta command line switch, then I believe you need to use the -forcesidesvisible switch for bspc or it will complain (misleadingly) about leaks.




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Commander
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PostPosted: 10-12-2013 02:03 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The bscp tool writes a .lin file instead of an .aas file when you compile the .bsp to create an .aas. and there is a leak in your map.
If so start gtkradiant, load your map and there is an option in the gtk menu to load the .lin file.
The q3map2.exe doesn't write the .lin file, the bspc tool does.
Btw. I never used q3map2toolz.

So in short, create a .bsp from your.map with q3map2.
From the .bsp try to create a .aas. If there is a leak a .lin file will be written instead of the .aas.
Load this .lin file in your map using gtk.

Hope this works for you...



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-12-2013 11:48 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@Johnny Law: It's strange. I compiled also alpha 1 with meta and use no -forcesidesvisible switch in AAS compile. It worked fine. Why not now?

@Takkie: Will try it, thanks :)



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-13-2013 02:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


ALPHA 2:
Well, I'm glad to introduce alpha layout number two. To the AAS compilation. Just added -forcesidesvisible switch and it works!

Download:
Download map: ZIP (533 KiB)

Screenshots:
Image
Levelshot image


Uppest section, grenades trap activated by button, source shot for levelshot making, Red Armor


Detail to button activating grenades trap in uppest section, jumppad to uppest section


Rocket Launcher with ammo, upper indoors section


Teleporter with hallway connected to plat, Yellow Armor


Detail to hallway tunnel connecting with plat


Passageway to lowest section


Lowest section, Grenade Launcher with ammo, Small Healths


Megahealth pit, teleporter to uppest section


Detail to passageway connecting with lowest section, healths


Grenades trap activated by powerup grabbing, Armor Shards, Small Healths


Armor Shards, hallway split



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Commander
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PostPosted: 10-13-2013 04:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


:up: I will check the map when i find a bit more time.



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-13-2013 05:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Okay, I'll wait for your feedback :)
Again, make screenshots with annotations to give better feedback so I can better imagine what you request. I ask mainly for layout of brushwork and items placement. Design notes will be taken in weight by passing to stage beta...

EDIT:
I won't post new version for three days, I will travel with my classmates to Moravia instead :)



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visual prowess
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PostPosted: 10-13-2013 11:26 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Very nice, you pretty much fixed the map flow problems except for one or two more places, I'll make screenshots later when I have more time but gj. Big improvement.

One thing I noticed is you cant shoot through the grates that are above the mega health. Not sure if that's intended but I think it would be more interesting if you could shoot down there.



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-17-2013 08:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@Bacon: Thank you :)
To the grates: It's an unspecified issue, which has to be solved. Looks like Q3Map2 has taken grate surface as source and made it solid. I see if changing commons/nonsolid to commons/clip will solve it. If not, it will be considered as known bug to be solved later and if neccesary, marked as non-solveable. Anyway, it's made of detail brushes, so no HOM effect should appear then.



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Trainee
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PostPosted: 10-18-2013 08:30 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I tried the alpha 2 verion. Some feedback from me.

Image

1. In RL room also placed are PG & SG. IMO, 3 weapons into the one hall - this is not good. More players will be try to take RL, and igone PG and SG.
Maybe better place PG an SG move into the on the YAs, who located at the sides of this hall?

Image

2. Replace 3 armor shards to one YA.

Image

3. Make healths placed on the straight line. location thesm as in the screenshot is better for SP nit DM.

Image

4. Make more space between the "columns", for players may do shoot to another side of this hall. ANd make one of the side "galleries" with stairs not lift.

Image

5. Make central part slightly lower ("bridges" to railgun). And make 3rd exit from this platform (as teleport or corridor with JPad behind the railgun -> to hall with RL, where have is a long empty wall).

Image

Make the one grate "window" is a broken.



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Last edited by _DOOMer_ on 10-20-2013 04:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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I'm the dude!
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PostPosted: 10-19-2013 04:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


ITEM PLACEMENT 101:
This is a rough guide to get you started. Item placement depends on A LOT of factors, like map size, layout, player load, and much more. Read the more detailed guides linked below for more info. This is the general process and tips that I do when thinking about item placement. Then I'll do a lot of testing, more thinking and more changes. Repeat until gameplay is solid.

Quake 3 gameplay is heavily dependent on item locations. Even with a decent layout, gameplay is ruined if you have either too much or too little items, and items placed in too close of a proximity. The idea is, you want the player to run around the map to collect all the items that will most benefit them. You do NOT want to group them all together, as this will encourage camping - the player will just sit in the room with the most amount of high level items.


STEP 1:
Probably the easiest way to start with item placement is to pick a few (normally 2 maybe 3... do NOT overdo it) of the more valuable pickups (RA, YA, Mega, Quad) and space them out in different parts of the map. You want the more valuable items like RA to be in an area of higher "risk" than something with slightly lower value like a YA. "Risk" means in an area where the player trying to grab it might be more likely to run into enemy fire (middle of a large open room, or in the intersection of a room with multiple exits), or has to spend more time reaching it (like on top of a narrow ledge).


STEP 2:
Then you want to do the same with your weapons, pick a few of the more powerful weapons (RL, RG) and place them on different sides of the map, but also keeping into consideration where the weapons are relative to the other items you just placed (RA, YA, Mega, Quad, etc.). You would NOT want to place a RG right next to the RA, as they are both valuable items.


STEP 3:
Now you can place lesser items (health, shards, etc.) and lesser weapons (SG, GL, etc.) in less important parts of the map. You do NOT need to place one of each gun in your map, just think about what kind of weapons best suit your layout. The amount of health is still very important and dependent on the size and player load of the map. My starting rule of thumb is that the total points of health bubbles and shards should never be more than the total points of all the major items in your map. So if you have a RA (100A), YA (50A) and Mega (100H) in your map, you do not want more than 250 total points of health and armor as bubbles and shards. Test your map with this amount and tweak as necessary.


STEP 4:
Ammo placement... NEVER place more than 2 (sometimes just 1) of the same ammo crates in the same map. NEVER place 2 of the same ammo crates next to each other. NEVER place an ammo crate next to the weapon it is used for. ALWAYS keep the ammo approximately on the opposite side of the map from the weapon it is used for. Too much ammo, and the player will just grab the biggest weapon in the map and camp the ammo and he'll never have to run around the map for any other weapons.


Suggested reading (seriously, read these enough times until you memorize it):
wviperw's Competitive Design Guide
PJW's Multiplayer Level Design Guide



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-20-2013 04:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I have a question to get anwered: Does func_bobbing support model rotation? If yes, in what way?

I tried to fill an empty space in map by some bobbing models, but models are wrong oriented. I have attached models to a func_bobbing brushwork, but even after adding angle key with proper value it discards to rotate the model. I'm using model2 key to attach model...

@obs: I have edited some item placements using your guide, some items are moved and changed.

@bacon: I don't know why compiler always do the grate solid, I must cosider it as non-solveable bug unless there is anyone who have idea on how to make grate nonsolid using brushes... I tried common/nodraw, common/clip, common/nodrawnonsolid, but it doesn't work. When it will come to design visuals, I will search for some ways to make nonsolid grate... I used Q3Map2Toolz with q3map2 from Radiant 1.6 linked, but it's rather the same version (2.5.17) so it doesn't matter which q3map2 I will use (from Rad1.5 or 1.6). Just for clarify, I made the map with Radiant 1.5...

@doomer: I moved some items, changed, middle grate bar is made broken this time. I have light up the MH pit a bit, so it's not too dark and there are visible some pieces of broken grate fallen down...



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Veteran
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PostPosted: 10-20-2013 02:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


"Solid crates" problems best way to fix (or try to fix it), is making your own crate (with new shader "surfaceparm nonsolid" flag). Then add your new crate to your map, and "player clip" it.

Good weapon placement (in my opinion.): Place near spawnpoint shotgun, lightninggun, bullets, shells, lightning. Far (a bit) place plasmagun and/or rocketlauncher with their ammo. Farther on place railgun... If you want ofc.
I think, there is no need guides...

I'm tested your maps, and the first thing what was I think, the map is too small (I could jump across it :olo: )
Tip: If you have ideas for your map, you need to give them more area/space, That will make your map more enjoyable in my opinion. Make it bigger and more complex a bit if it possible.

I hope, I could help you with my ideas/thoughts. :up:



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-21-2013 07:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Well, I'll think at this, I have not enough time to do it now, I must make a homework tomorrow, so I will get to action in wednesday soon. Anyway thanks for your tips ;)



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visual prowess
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PostPosted: 10-21-2013 12:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Use a 3x3 patch mesh for the grates. Face them upward.



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-22-2013 08:52 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Are you sure it will work bacon? I think one of the side will be solid, in this case the upward one.



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-25-2013 08:05 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It doesn't work, bacon, the grate is still solid. I might consider it as a known bug until it gets solved...
ALPHA 3
Improvements:
  • 3 AS at hallway slipt changed to 1 YA
  • Reduces number of AS
  • RA moved, SG on a place of RA from Alpha 2
  • One lift changed to stair galleries
  • Completely lowered central area in Deathpit, added stairs
  • Curved pillars changed by system of eight vertical pillars
  • Enlighted Megahealth pit

Known bugs:
  • Grate isn't nonsolid
  • Missing model in map (it worked fine when I was making screenshots; you might see in some parts an axis model)

Download: ZIP (516 KiB)

Screenshots:
Image
Levelshot


RA, SG


Console bobbing models, RL


Rockets, RG, JP to upper section


Galleries from Deathpit look


Galleries from upper section look


Grenade launcher trap, Powerup pit, ASs


YA at hallway split


GL with ammo, grates to look and shoot to Megahealth pit


Megahealth pit


Shells, JP to RA


Source screenshot for levelshot creation, RL


Pillar system in Deathpit area detail



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-27-2013 04:27 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I see nobody found time to check out the third alpha. I have to say that without feedback the development of this map will stuck on... Post your suggestions, make screenshots and annotate them (possibly with Photoshop or another graphics editor except for Windows Paint, of course), tell me to start designing visuals or start beta stage... I can't make next version without proper feedback...



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Trainee
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PostPosted: 10-27-2013 06:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


CZghost, I lmake litle test without bots (just walk around the map). Now, I have two suggestions.

1.

Image

Maybe move this JP behind the railgun? As additional retreat. And in the RL hall make "curved niche" in the longer empty wall, and hole for jumping near it.

Image

2.

Image

Remove simmetrical stairs, Delete stairs on the right side, And make them in the this corridor^

Image

Also

Quote:
Console bobbing models

Why they are here?

I will be trying play alpha3 with bots in few next days.



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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 10-27-2013 07:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@doomer:
Looks like you will heavily post feedback :) I will wait for your bot feedback and try to make changes you have suggested plus some extra:
JP behind RG? What a wonderful idea! With the combination of curved wall it's a weapon (sorry for this phrase if it is wrong, I don't know all the english speak phrases)...
Moving stairs to the hallway might be a bit problematic, but not impossible. Will take a look on it.
Console bobbing models are here for decorative reasons. If you need to remove them, tell me what I should place there to have no boring dull wall? Anything, items, models, etc...
I might try to add extra place (maybe easter egg or secret)...



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Trainee
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PostPosted: 11-03-2013 03:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@CZghost, sorry for the delayed in almost a week. I was very busy and Q3 leaving no time at all: (

Bots most go into a RL-hall and RG-hhall and room with Regeneration power-up. They did not come down in the " bunker " for MH, because there is a system of little intricate corridors where there is almost no "interesting" items. Perhaps this can be solved by straddling multiple entities botroam .

Image

Also, I feel that this system of stairs - somewhat confusing and difficult to move quickly without the fear of falling into the pit : (

Perhaps you should make a smooth descent and exit in the upper room on the other side...

Decorative models at this stage of the map construction, just look very foreign matter . You have decided on the general style of a map and a set of textures that you use? Texture, which is now - look bored with the lighting.



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Cool #9
Cool #9
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 41212
PostPosted: 11-03-2013 11:37 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Good job CZghost. Keep going :up:




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The hell good boy
The hell good boy
Joined: 22 Jun 2011
Posts: 1541
PostPosted: 11-05-2013 11:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I will take your notes on my going, now I have troubles with marks in school... Thank you :)



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While you feel the worst ever, turn around facing to Sun and all shadows will pass behind you.” - John Lennon


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Cool #9
Cool #9
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 41212
PostPosted: 11-07-2013 03:51 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


School's not important. Get your map done first :p




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The hell good boy
The hell good boy
Joined: 22 Jun 2011
Posts: 1541
PostPosted: 11-12-2013 11:41 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


School is actualy the most important, what will I do without maturity?



_________________
[ Quake III Arena by CZghost | Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Google+ ]
While you feel the worst ever, turn around facing to Sun and all shadows will pass behind you.” - John Lennon


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