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Topic Starter Topic: q3dmp29 - Jackal

Immortal
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PostPosted: 12-30-2014 07:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Q3DMP29 -Jackal

Introduction

Hello Q3W :) So this is my new version of the map i entered into the Mapcore contest. After reading through the feedback etc I've made some changes and would love to see what the wider community thought. This is a funny map as I was trying to do something different with height. I like the whole death from above thing and had plenty of laughs while testing out the map with bots. Problem is that bots just don't play like humans so I've no idea how it would play in reality. It was originally going to be much different, there was this whole lower section which more than doubled the size of the map. In the end i scraped it and made the map a lot tighter. Its one of those choices where i kind of wonder how it would have played out if i had not done that. Heres a link to an early version (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ax9q971v25zzy ... d.pk3?dl=0) This was around about 6 hours in i think. :question:

Anyway, so i forged on and created this monster. Its one of those situations where you kinda just get carried away with detail and lots of little changes and don't really keep an eye on the broader picture ie true q3 scale and traditional systems. Still, overall i'm proud of this effort... Might be a case of style over substance. But who really cares these days. :toothy:
So yeah, have a play and tell me what you think. :up:









Changes

Got rid of the statues and replaced them with computers/tech. I'm not sure why i kept them in the final... was an odd choice. I guess since they were there in the early versions they just kinda stuck around.

Removed the RG and moved the RA to the old RG spot. I was never really sure about the RG in this map, it was a late addition that really did not work out well.

Added a second YA

Brick are gone and have been replaced with concrete. It is more uniform, and the lighting works better on lighter textures.

Added a few flags etc.

Did a little window work and various other small changes.

File: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ap3equch7nf96 ... 9.rar?dl=0 (link updated 3/1/15)

So yeah, any feedback would be great.

Thanks team :up:




Last edited by fKd on 01-02-2015 02:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 12-31-2014 06:17 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


First off... I love all the detail and the windows (boy I really really love the windows) with that skybox are just great. They really add some nice colour to the mostly grey map, so it all feels and looks good. To make orientation in the map easier, I am designating the low floor skeleton JP south.

Some things I noted after running about for 15 minutes, still need to test with bots:

  • You place your skybox textures in the main textures folder, they normally are in textures/env/q3dmp29/ (nitpicking).

  • "q3dmp29.pk3" is not prefixed with a "map-"... i.e. map-q3dmp29.pk3, or was that just me who used to do that for all map pk3 files? (more nitpicking)

  • I really like how you added a bit of logic to the map by power cabling the lights. Nice detail and makes you wonder why not more maps did it, yet. Might need to borrow that idea ;).


    • Down south near the steps to the skeleton, there are several blue lights without the cabling. IMO, once the player catches on to that logic, the cables are missed.

    • Near the AP on the med level, the blue lights facing the centre of the arena are cabled, but not those on the other side of the columns.

  • With all the nice detail in place I felt that both the SG and the PG on the lowest level felt a bit "floaty" on the grates on the floor. IMO, it would greatly anchor them to the floor grates here by adding some form of spawn pad, maybe with glow and some power cabling to them too. IMO, would fit into the theme you set better. Presently the weapons feel like they were accidentally dropped here. I noted that this is also the case for the LG and RL... a bit of extra brushwork would help motivate their location "right there". A decal under the LG and RL would probably be enough.

  • This is a cliché, I know, but some of the edges where you can fall off could use a striped hazard texture... in your case a dark brown / black or wood one might look interesting. Or you could use wood as the hazard texture, i.e. the idea being the builders know that crete edges will not stay crisp, so at the upper edges where the player lands from the JPs below, they used a wearable material, wood, that they can easily replace when worn :idea:. Any visual indicator that "yes you are about to fall into a JP from above", IMO would help, and make the map look even more interesting.

  • The MH... hmm... I know my strafe jumping is not good, I practised in Reflex, where any dummy seems to be able to do it (read CPMA). But I don't think you can reach the MH with a strafe jump, and if so it would be ultra annoying to reach, IMO. I used the tallest 8-sided column to RJ there, and that was still "annoying".
    :arrow: Personally, I would place the MH where you presently have the Haste/Hazard items. Put a railgun where the RA is, and put the RA on your tallest 8-sided column. The area up on that tube (where is the MH presently is) is just too out of the way, and too close to the RA IMO. (Needs more thinking on my part, I would love to have a Quad where the Haste is... too... but that may be too much FFA thinking).

  • Your grey fish scale metal flooring could use a metal walking sound IMO, add a surfaceparm metalsteps to its shader if you agree.

  • All the blue lights at the bottom of your stair are stretched 2x in width. Ever since I had to do with a lot less in Reflex, knowing that such things can be easily befixed in Radiant, I have become sensitive to texture stretching. I would put a 1u thick 3-part brush as a "cap" on the angled part of the stairs, and put the blue light on the central part of the 3 brushes, un-stretched. This should add nice detail, and fix the stretching. Alternately you could cut the ramp of your stairs into 3 parts, 25%, 50%, 25% wide and put the blue light on the 50% part un-stretched.
    :arrow: The lights around the RA have the same stretching issue, that looks rather ugly IMO.
    :arrow: I recently started to meddle with textures again. So it should be easy, if you like I could do it for you, to create a double-wide blue light texture that perfectly fits you steps, and is not stretched. Since I have never seen such an texture before, it might really look special.

  • At the south JP, up to the YA, turn right, the blue lights of the stairs here have not been aligned (fitted).

  • Above the GL JP you have two planks with 3x5H and 3x5A... another tease? Since the player will rarely have the time to collect them from both sides. Visually I like them though. You have another area with two planks further up... you might like to add something on those too... maybe.
  • I am not so sure about the Hazard and Haste... I don't think I ever added them to my maps. But I may be missing something here. The Hazard looks nice as deco, but was it not only useful in lava or slime maps? I am still partial to a Quad :D.

Movement:
  • The 8-sided columns in the main arena I found strange at first, and the 5H on them more like a tease. The med high column would be accessible from the RL via double-jump in Reflex, and I did fall for it and tried, only to fall to the lowest level. I then used those columns to jump down from the RA and that helped reduce fall damage. So though confusing to me at first they work.

  • One thing that confused me every time was the AP... I expected to make it to the LG also on med level, but actually get tossed up to the top level with the 50H & RA. I would strongly recommend making the AP angle more steeply to make it clear that you will get up to the top level.

  • Your east and west lower floor 3xJPs feel a bit strange... not the central JP on each side, but those leading into the steps. To me it is a bit weird to use a JP and then "visually stumble" into stairs. It always makes me cringe, because in reality you would stumble and break a few legs when falling into the stairs. And when you take the stairs down, they suddenly cut off and make you fall... there should be some platform here to "catch" you before you drop down from the stairs IMO. You added those pads on the left and right of the steps and those help. But the cut off at the lowest step still feels strange and "hazardous". When running down the stairs you also tend to fall into the JP trigger brush, though you would want to be able to clear it, IMO. Maybe make the trigger brush stick out less from the wall.
    :arrow: I just rechecked, I would move the JPs on both sides more to the centre of the map, keep the stairs as they are, this automatically yields a flat area... I would think 64u would be good, to not directly JP into steps.

  • I note you are very efficiently using JP heights... they exactly place you where you need to go... since I am a fan of a slight over-bounce, this takes some getting used to, since I keep feeling I will not make the jump. Might be something to add, i.e. up the JP target by 16u or so. But this is a style thing... so just mentioning this as an idea.

  • Both the south and the north side JPs catapult you up to the YA. These JPs IMO really need an over-bounce to catapult you up more to then "drop" you onto the YAs. Presently you get "slammed" into the columns behind the YAs. To test this... on the lower floor just walk into the the JP trigger, and only turn around in the air (no movement keys), and you hit the column.
    :arrow: I would try the over-bounce, JP target up by 16u or more. Then I'd try to move the column in the way more towards the centre of the map (rechecked, moving the columns would be an issue, unless you make them half as "thick"). I understand the location of the YA, and it is a pretty good one, but I am not such a fan of "falling" or being "pushed" into items. As a gimmick, I might have put the YA on the column, and have the JP get up there... though that would be a very much "bounce" and "fun" thing to do.

BTW, the list seems long, but the map is actually really polished, only because you have put so much work into it can I concentrate and notice the small things I am pointing out.

Hope that helps.




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PostPosted: 12-31-2014 07:08 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Found 3 sparklies :)

  • The north, south and east windows, have a rounded patch at their tops. The brush immediately above them needs to be cut into 4 parts (3 clipping tool cuts per brush) to match the t-junctions of the window patches below. Brushes are properly cut up to the sides of the windows AFAICT.

Noted them looking at how good your caulking was... impeccable... and since I recently looked into AEtimeR that used tons of patches, thought I'd double-check.




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Immortal
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PostPosted: 12-31-2014 02:27 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, thanks for the great feedback, I'll work through those issues and do a proper reply when I'm not so hung over :) Thanks heaps Aeon, happy new year buddy!




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This is not Æon!
This is not Æon!
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PostPosted: 12-31-2014 05:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, AEon, a lot of critique!

@ FKD, I played this and ran around it a few times during the contest and did so now again. My biggest issue is that I a lot of times takes fall damage, when I don't want. I know a few added ledges and such have been added to remedy this though!

Another issue for me is that it's dark, it's like the textures blend in too good with the players or something, or it's too much flickering with small lights, can't set my finger on it =) I think this level would benefit a lot from a brighter color scheme.



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Immortal
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PostPosted: 01-01-2015 03:33 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ok, here goes :)

1: Skybox textures dir. mm not fussed :)

2: No map prefix, again... not fussed.

3: Near the AP on the med level, the blue lights facing the centre of the arena are cabled, but not those on the other side of the columns. Fixed

4: With all the nice detail in place I felt that both the SG and the PG on the lowest level felt a bit "floaty" on the grates on the floor. Good idea, same with the gl. Done.

5: This is a cliché, I know, but some of the edges where you can fall off could use a striped hazard texture... I gave this a go and it just looked really weird, esp at 45 degree angles where you end up with big stripes.

6: The MH... The easiest way to get it is to rocket jump from the highest level. Not a hard jump and it makes getting it a little more hazardous which is always good :) As to the railgun, its just too powerful with the openness of this map... it was in my contest submission but it was a late addition which did not get the testing it needed to check if it was op.. it was :)

7: Your grey fish scale metal flooring could use a metal walking sound IMO Great idea, done.

8: All the blue lights at the bottom of your stair are stretched 2x in width. Good point, fixed. I've replaced all the light textures. Total lighting over haul! (Hipshot, hopefully it fixes your issue as well)

9: At the south JP, up to the YA, turn right, the blue lights of the stairs here have not been aligned (fitted) Woops! fixed!

10: Above the GL JP you have two planks with 3x5H and 3x5A. Hmm, good idea, i'll give it a go.

11: I am not so sure about the Hazard and Haste... I don't think I ever added them to my maps. But I may be missing something here. The Hazard looks nice as deco, but was it not only useful in lava or slime maps? Haste is just a cool powerup, and the hazard suit means you don't take falling damage, cool aye!

12: One thing that confused me every time was the AP... I expected to make it to the LG also on med level, but actually get tossed up to the top level with the 50H & RA. I would strongly recommend making the AP angle more steeply to make it clear that you will get up to the top level. Fixed!

13: I just rechecked, I would move the JPs on both sides more to the centre of the map, keep the stairs as they are, this automatically yields a flat area... I would think 64u would be good, to not directly JP into steps. Good idea, Fixed.

14: Both the south and the north side JPs catapult you up to the YA. These JPs IMO really need an over-bounce to catapult you up more to then "drop" you onto the YAs. Presently you get "slammed" into the columns behind the YAs. Yeah youre right, i've pulled them back a bit so you dont get smashed into the columns.

15: Found 3 sparklies Fixed

Thanks so much guys, great feedback!




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PostPosted: 01-01-2015 03:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Glad most suggestions could get implemented... neat... means I was not totally off my rocker suggesting them ;). As mentioned the map was so polished, those things were easy for me to spot, in a beta I would probably have missed many of them.




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Immortal
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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 03:23 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Mmm, anyone know whats wrong with this shader? The rocket decals seem to be a bit broken and make a line around the decal brush.. :(



Here is the shader.

textures/q3dmp29/lvl2
{
noPicMip
polygonOffset
surfaceparm nonsolid
{
map textures/q3dmp29/lvl2.tga
blendFunc GL_ZERO GL_ONE_MINUS_SRC_COLOR
}
}

I tried to figure out the whole blendfunc business reading the shader manual, but it gets a little confusing. A bunch of my efforts crashed q3 as soon as the texture came into sight ingame :olo:




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The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 04:10 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@fKd: Photobucket wants me to download a javascript file, I see it a bit offensive and it can mean the sites were infected. Good results has Dropbox, you have all files synchronised over devices (computers, tablets, mobiles, etc.) and your files are stored safely on their servers. You have a public folder which is shared with the worldwide, so it's perfect for sharing such screenshots and maps. I do not trust much such online hosts aimed to specific type of media as they are often source of malicious software.

PS: I do not see anything wrong at the shader and the border is not visible in the screenshot. If you see it, try to edit the texture in Photoshop (or another image editing software) and remove the border manuály, if there is any. Just pick black brush and paint over edges of the image (try to avoid the characters) :)



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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 06:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


fKd wrote:
textures/q3dmp29/lvl2
{
noPicMip
polygonOffset
surfaceparm nonsolid
{
map textures/q3dmp29/lvl2.tga
blendFunc GL_ZERO GL_ONE_MINUS_SRC_COLOR
}
}


In AEdm7 I use this shader for tabun's textures:

Code:
textures/aeindus/aecell_decal_logo1
{
   qer_editorimage textures/aeindus/aecell_decal_logo1.tga
   qer_trans 0.99
   surfaceparm nodamage
   surfaceparm nolightmap
   surfaceparm nonsolid
   surfaceparm nomarks
   surfaceparm trans
   polygonoffset
   {
      clampmap textures/aeindus/aecell_decal_logo1.tga
      blendFunc GL_SRC_ALPHA GL_ONE_MINUS_SRC_ALPHA   // Transparent, edges no alpha!
      rgbGen Vertex
   }
}


Worked back then.

My other guess would be that the shader is not flush with the wall the "polygonoffset" should let you do that.




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This is not Æon!
This is not Æon!
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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 06:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


FKD, use imgur instead, it's much better, easier and no clutter.



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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 06:37 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Actually I would recommend uploading the image to the forum... that way the chances are they will exist later in time as well.




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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 07:25 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


right up til the point the forum server's hdd is full and all images disappear in one fell swoop :up:




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The hell good boy
The hell good boy
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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 11:26 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Old threads do not need to be filled up by images (I mean threads old about a decade), the best way to host your images online is make your own hosting somewhere (possibly with websites) and post images here. Use attachments only where it works and only when neccessary. That's my unofficial rule which I am following from my join. When your thread becomes trashed in number of new on page of about 5 just 'cause it's no longer present, it's images are no longer important. There are already archieving sites that saves whole pages with everything that's needed to the page to work properly (scripts, styles, images, fonts, etc.) - That way you can see how Google looked before 10 years for example. Aah, that nostalgia :cool:



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Immortal
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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 12:42 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Fixed. Turns out it was not the blendfunc but some of the surfaceparms. This shader works

textures/q3dmp29/lvl2
{
noPicMip
polygonOffset
surfaceparm nodamage
surfaceparm nolightmap
surfaceparm nonsolid
surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm trans
{
map textures/q3dmp29/lvl2.tga
blendFunc GL_ZERO GL_ONE_MINUS_SRC_COLOR
}
}


And here is a new build: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ap3equch7nf96 ... 9.rar?dl=0




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I'm the dude!
I'm the dude!
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PostPosted: 01-02-2015 08:33 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I don't think you mean to have nodamage, that is set so that a player won't take fall damage when landing on this surface (it's a decal, so he should fall through it and hit whatever is underneath it).

I believe nomarks is what fixed the problem for you. Rocket decals were leaving marks on both the surface behind it as well as on the decal (since the surfaces are in fact coplanar).

nonsolid prevents weapons and players from touching the surface. Trans is important for any transparent surfaces from affecting vis.

Anyway, glad you figured it out on your own since I'm late to the party.



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PostPosted: 01-03-2015 04:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Removing the nodamage from my decals as well. Thanks obsidian.




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PostPosted: 01-03-2015 07:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Only now noted that you already updated the map... some more thoughts:

  • The spawn pad under the GL is "fat"... I like the slimmer version of the PG and SG better.
  • The LG level would be "2.5"... was looking for a number in that area, then saw the "Level 3" up on the way to the RA. I doubt a "Level 2.5" will be so neat... but mentioning it anyway. I like the level numbers... adds just that extra bit to help orientation.
  • The LG IMO needs a spawn pad too... it really seems to be placed on the edge as an afterthought. You probably want to see it from other parts of the map. But you may want to place it more in the middle of the room on the wooden floor with a spawn pad. This has the advantage that you do not JP into the weapon directly from below. If you really really want to see it from below you might add a "taller spawn point structure" and put the LG on that, now more in the middle of the area.
  • The angled AP now feels much more natural.
  • The new red metal crates... they probably have some movement related meaning, but IMO their texture does not really fit the theme of the map. You might like to go in and change their hue from the red to some more brownish or dark-redish tone.
  • OK, this is nitpicking... but I still feel that the JPs left and right of the GL could be moved some more towards the GL. To make that flat area at the bottom of the steps that extra bit wider (doubling that width would let you add some wood there to make it a plausible floor area. You should have the extra space and it should not impact your initial design too badly, I think.
  • Your new weapon spawn pads look nice. But the way you cut those octagons leads to "sparklie looking" edges on the N,S,E,W sides of the brush... this looks like a bug. Maybe try making the brush slightly smaller, or try a round flat cylindrical patch maybe? On rechecking, I would definitely go for the round flat patch.
  • The wooden beams sticking out above the skeleton (south) and the northern JP, might want something on them... if you are mischievous... a 5H or 5H.
  • At the skeleton JP, up a level, the trim edge that would have been a hazard texture location, the texture is misaligned. Same on the northern side. Some texture lock must haven gotten in the way :).
  • Cental isle, at the ceiling, flew up there... lights here are not cabled ;)... OK almost no one will notice... but if you happen to be bored... why not.

Well... the new blue lights look slightly unusual... but seem to be fine... the lights at the end of all your stairs definitely look better, same with the light textures around the RL.




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Immortal
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PostPosted: 01-04-2015 01:46 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Cool, will look into this tomorrow. Cheers




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Immortal
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PostPosted: 01-07-2015 12:46 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ok, this is now done. Time to finish my entity plus level.



https://www.dropbox.com/s/ap3equch7nf96 ... 9.rar?dl=0




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Immortal
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PostPosted: 05-01-2016 06:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I kept on playing around with this, now it's finally submitted! Had fun with this one. Enjoy :)




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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 05-02-2016 05:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That looks nice, i will give it some playtime today!



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Veteran
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Joined: 05 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 06-06-2016 02:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The map has been updated to fix a minor jump pad error on LvL.
[offtopic]P.S. This is my 100th post! Woot Woot! >:D :q3:[/offtopic]




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Veteran
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PostPosted: 06-21-2016 11:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Not only does this map need not apply with substance, it's already got substance with style!




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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 06-29-2016 01:39 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


very nice map! :)




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The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 527
PostPosted: 09-01-2016 01:25 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


A blast from the past! Also there are rarely any maps that get a review as quickly as this one, fKd delivers obviously, congrats on getting out of the queue so fast. Downloading now.



_________________
If you are caught on a golf course during a storm and are afraid of lightning, hold up a 1-iron. Not even God can hit a 1-iron.
-Lee Trevino, golfer who actually has been struck by lightning.


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