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Topic Starter Topic: Quake III in Doom.

Gibblet
Gibblet
Joined: 02 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: 02-02-2016 04:36 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think this is what Quake 3 would have looked like if it had a real SP campaign.
I'm not quite sure that this is the right section to post this but I didn't find any better. It's somewhat connected to level design.
This is Doom nowadays.




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This is not Æon!
This is not Æon!
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PostPosted: 02-02-2016 11:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


How I want Q3 to have a proper SP (I know eraser, I know).

GZDoom supports Q3 BSP features and such am I right?



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Gibblet
Gibblet
Joined: 02 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 03:12 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hipshot wrote:
How I want Q3 to have a proper SP (I know eraser, I know).

GZDoom supports Q3 BSP features and such am I right?


I'm not really sure on that, I've never seen the BSP code for GZDoom since there are lots of BSP node builders for it.
But from the maps in the video I can tell you might be right.

What I know for sure is the renderer is fully capable of Q3's features, it can even handle shaders and such.




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Cool #9
Cool #9
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 04:13 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Doom ports like these really make me think "why?"
If you want an engine that can do fully hardware accelerated 3D environments with 32 bit texture support, transparency, shaders, colored lighting and which is able to read Q3's BSP file format, then that already exists. It's called idTech3. Oh and specifically for this project, the sell it in a convenient package together with weapons, player models, textures, sound effects and functional shaders. You'll find it if you search for Quake III Arena in Steam.




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This is not Æon!
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 06:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
Doom ports like these really make me think "why?"
If you want an engine that can do fully hardware accelerated 3D environments with 32 bit texture support, transparency, shaders, colored lighting and which is able to read Q3's BSP file format, then that already exists. It's called idTech3. Oh and specifically for this project, the sell it in a convenient package together with weapons, player models, textures, sound effects and functional shaders. You'll find it if you search for Quake III Arena in Steam.


Think about it the other way, Q3 doesn't have any Singleplayer, there's no mode with masses of enemies and things like that.
Playing vs bots are very boring, however you put it.

You need to make a massive amount of model work and effects to add things into Q3 to make a good proper horde/survival mode with "new" monsters.

There must be a reason why people do this stuff in gZDoom instead of doing Doom in Quake 3.



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 10:08 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


From what I can gather from the video, all monsters were remodelled in 3D (in md3 format no doubt) so you'd have that work to do anyway.

It's also way less work to build a SP campaign on top of Quake 3 (see EntityPlus, hah) than it is to modify Doom's engine to become essentially a fully 3D engine.

Besides, Q3 was built from the ground up to allow modding. Despite the number of mods, Doom clearly wasn't, so I guess that introducing new gameplay mechanics into Doom's codebase is a lot harder than doing the same for Q3.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 10:15 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


What I'm guessing that happened here is that some people familiar with Doom modding stuck to what they were comfortable with. It's kind of foolish to limit yourself in such a say though, IMO.

Also, and this may sound harsh, but I also wouldn't be surprised if a serious amount of e-peen and pride was involved in a "look at what my Doom engine can do" way.




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Gibblet
Gibblet
Joined: 02 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 10:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
Besides, Q3 was built from the ground up to allow modding. Despite the number of mods, Doom clearly wasn't, so I guess that introducing new gameplay mechanics into Doom's codebase is a lot harder than doing the same for Q3.


That's not true. Doom's way of storing data was intended for modding. Carmack wanted it to be moddable, that's why mods already existed in the first place even in 94. Then, when source ports started to rule the community, it became way easier to implement bigger things like the ones in the video. Everything is stored in a single pk3, like in Q3.
EntityPlus looks promising actually but it's still time till someone makes bigger things in it.

I'm not saying it's the right way to go with GZDoom to make a Q3 SP (Q3 would be already suitable for this by the way), but that's something that turned out quite good, imo.
It's also a good project for only one person to work on it.




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This is not Æon!
This is not Æon!
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 11:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hmm, gzDoom is a "new" engine and not a hack of the old one and as far as I know, it supports tons of stuff Doom did not AND tons of things Quake 3 dont?

Just like Darkplaces is "new" and not Quake1?



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Gibblet
Gibblet
Joined: 02 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 02:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hipshot wrote:
Hmm, gzDoom is a "new" engine and not a hack of the old one and as far as I know, it supports tons of stuff Doom did not AND tons of things Quake 3 dont?

Just like Darkplaces is "new" and not Quake1?


From what I know, Darkplaces is a fully new engine, right?
gzDoom is still Doom's engine with high modifications, extensions. Let's say, when you start up the original Doom iwads (Ultimate Doom, Doom II, Final Doom), it's not emulating the maps, it's fully compatible with the original ones. The levels are still 2D and they remain the same forever. The renderer is, however, capable of 3D, like platforms, slopes, etc.
So, tons of things Doom didn't but not tons of things Quake 3 didn't.

This holds a great disadvantage to Quake's engine: 3D floors (platforms) can be only done with creating a dummy sector (Doom's 2D levels consist of sectors) outside the map, applying a 3D floor "property" (called line-special there) and the sector is transfered to the place you'd like in the real map, and it's rendered inside out. Rooms above rooms are known as portals (the one you saw at 0:12 in the video, there's still stuff above the first ceiling which is not possible in vanilla): create the same layout, again, outside the map, then the renderer puts them above eachother. There are still other ways to do that, like making a silent teleporter (on a stair upwards, for instance) which teleports you to another section of the map which results in the illusion of having rooms above eachother.
While it's quite complicated, they're still possible and that's enough for some people.
Other things, however, (like shaders, Quake 2 like skyboxes, models, true color) are real things.

The first bigger source port was Boom, it removed lots of limits from Doom (you could only have 128 visplanes drawn on the screen, etc.), then zDoom came, which has still only had software renderer but supported scripting (any event could be scripted on a map, or you could do global things, too) and was the most moddable of all, then gzDoom (a fork of zDoom) came with it's openGL renderer which moved everyone in another direction.

Lots of source ports resulted in lots of map formats (Vanilla, limit-removing, Boom, zDoom, gzDoom), thus splitting the community quite a bit. Some people like the old-school style, some like improvements.

I apologize for the wall of text here but I like to explain everything in depth.




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axbaby
axbaby
Joined: 22 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 06:45 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


This is what Quake 1 plays like with updated graphics.
I am very impressed with what has been done here (I watched the other videos too). I have been waiting 15 years for this mod (possibly could have been done with EntityPlus??. I like the mapping, sounds and Monsters and will play when available.
Looking great so far, I bet there are a million secrets.
Good Job .. looks like fun.
I assume this is the Quake 3 engine in use, the above postings make it a bit confusing.



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Veteran
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PostPosted: 02-03-2016 10:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I saw the Doom 3 Cacodemon and others ... So this is definitely not original in anyway but HELL I WANT TO PLAY IT.



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Cool #9
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Joined: 01 Dec 2000
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PostPosted: 02-04-2016 01:04 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


fractalxx wrote:
This holds a great disadvantage to Quake's engine: 3D floors (platforms) can be only done with creating a dummy sector (Doom's 2D levels consist of sectors) outside the map, applying a 3D floor "property" (called line-special there) and the sector is transfered to the place you'd like in the real map, and it's rendered inside out. Rooms above rooms are known as portals (the one you saw at 0:12 in the video, there's still stuff above the first ceiling which is not possible in vanilla): create the same layout, again, outside the map, then the renderer puts them above eachother. There are still other ways to do that, like making a silent teleporter (on a stair upwards, for instance) which teleports you to another section of the map which results in the illusion of having rooms above eachother.

ok, so that only reinforces my idea of why not just pick up idTech3 and use that?




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-04-2016 01:45 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


axbaby wrote:
I assume this is the Quake 3 engine in use, the above postings make it a bit confusing.

Nope. It's been built with something called "gzdoom", which is a modified version of the Doom engine.
My posts were about how it would've been easier for the team that built this to simply take the Quake 3 engine and build their mod in there.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-04-2016 01:47 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


D-Meat wrote:
I saw the Doom 3 Cacodemon and others ... So this is definitely not original in anyway

Yeah, I'm afraid they haven't considered IP law too much here.




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Gibblet
Gibblet
Joined: 02 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: 02-04-2016 03:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
fractalxx wrote:
This holds a great disadvantage to Quake's engine: 3D floors (platforms) can be only done with creating a dummy sector (Doom's 2D levels consist of sectors) outside the map, applying a 3D floor "property" (called line-special there) and the sector is transfered to the place you'd like in the real map, and it's rendered inside out. Rooms above rooms are known as portals (the one you saw at 0:12 in the video, there's still stuff above the first ceiling which is not possible in vanilla): create the same layout, again, outside the map, then the renderer puts them above eachother. There are still other ways to do that, like making a silent teleporter (on a stair upwards, for instance) which teleports you to another section of the map which results in the illusion of having rooms above eachother.

ok, so that only reinforces my idea of why not just pick up idTech3 and use that?


Challenge motivates people the best, even though humanity is so comfortable now.

Eraser wrote:
D-Meat wrote:
I saw the Doom 3 Cacodemon and others ... So this is definitely not original in anyway

Yeah, I'm afraid they haven't considered IP law too much here.


Yeah, they're all already existing things pretty much but why would he make really unique things if it's a tribute to another game?




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axbaby
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Joined: 22 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: 02-04-2016 04:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
axbaby wrote:
I assume this is the Quake 3 engine in use, the above postings make it a bit confusing.

Nope. It's been built with something called "gzdoom", which is a modified version of the Doom engine.
My posts were about how it would've been easier for the team that built this to simply take the Quake 3 engine and build their mod in there.


Sure looks like a bunch of Quake 3 assets were used.



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-04-2016 07:04 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


axbaby wrote:
Sure looks like a bunch of Quake 3 assets were used.


Yup, and Doom 3 assets as well.
If he redistributes those with his project, it's illegal on paper.




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This is not Æon!
This is not Æon!
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: 02-04-2016 07:13 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


To be honest, no one really cares about that when it comes to these games?

These mods keeps coming up where people take sounds/textures/models from old iD games and add them to Doom and so, but I've never seen any official go out and trying to end it. I guess they just don't care.



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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 02-04-2016 10:18 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That's why I stopped short of condemning it on an ethical basis.




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