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Topic Starter Topic: 2 questions.

Recruit
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Joined: 19 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: 06-19-2016 08:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


My first question is what are the Quake 3 Map specs?
This was asked before but the llama guy didn't go into much detail. I am creating a quake 3 map converter and I seem to be running into a problem of missing half of the tris. Don't know the map specs and neither trianglefan, trianglelist, or trianglestrip gives me the correct looking triangles.


My second question is where can I get Quake 3 Maps in their original .map format?
For instance, if I wanted to mod a level, where can I go to get the maps in their editable format? GTK Radiant doesn't seem to be able to load bsps. The maps Im using have been converted from bsps to maps, but I would like a fresh sample map to make sure the bsp converter hadn't jinxed it in some way.

Here's what I'm talking about.
Image




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The hell good boy
The hell good boy
Joined: 22 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: 06-20-2016 12:37 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


GtkRadiant simply does not support editing BSP format (well it's rather IBSP) as this format was not designed to be modified in such manners. BSP is already baked-in geometry with lightmaps (these are images that are used to enlight the map geometry including brushwork entities and models) and this format is binary (which means that everything you see in game are only numbers that are converted to actual graphics data by the game render). For a map creator it's much easier to work with text format, which is the format that GtkRadiant use for the *.map files. From map files you can make bsp using a compiler, which is generally converter that makes the text-based map format into the binary IBSP data. The proccess of that conversion is called "compiling" and it consumes a lot of the calc power to actually calc the geometry, the vis and the lightmaps. Bigger map means longer compile time... That compiler is a program - it's called q3map2. It's a command line only utility - it reacts only to given commands with parameters required to actually compile the map. You can read further details here: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Q3Map2

To the bsp2map converter - there is already one: it's the same program used to compile bsp files (q3map2), but instead of actually convert text-based map file into bsp, you should flip that proccess and convert bsp back to map file instead. That flipped proccess is oposite to the "compile" term - it's called "decompiling". You can do this by adding the parameter -convert -format MAP after the q3map2 command... That way you can successfully convert already compiled BSP into the workspace text-based format MAP. Basically - each computer algorithm can be flipped to the opposite, so if the program can actually compile, it should be able also decompile. Like when you're trying to convert one image format to another and vice versa. It's the same principle :up:

There is also analogy and might help you to understand the basis: GtkRadiant works always only with MAP files as it understands basic text-based code and cannot load up BSP's - Quake 3 game engine can't load up workspace text-based MAP files as it understands only the binary format IBSP (the BSP files are this format). To load the map in each other engine (editor or game), you need to convert that map using the computer algorithm actually calcing the values required to be assembled for the required kind of engine...



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Joined: 19 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: 06-20-2016 10:01 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yes I know this. Thanks for the reply. Perhaps I was unclear.

You see I would like to have access to Quake3map's in their original format before they are compiled. I fear that q3map2 "jinxes" the maps and gives the incorrect format. The problem is I don't have access to the website that gives me the Quake3 map specs. I only know the Quake1 map specs. I am trying to write a converter for Quake3 format maps but they are missing half their triangles.




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The hell good boy
The hell good boy
Joined: 22 Jun 2011
Posts: 1598
PostPosted: 06-20-2016 10:29 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Decompile never gives the original. It only converts the compiled BSP back to decompiled MAP text-based format. If you really need original map file, contact the author. Good luck, if the original map was released before 2000. Even some maps released early after 2000 have authors, that do not work for Q3 community anymore and are not available to contact...

The decompile do not include the light entities (if the author did not marked the light entities to be kept in BSP) and tough model entities are kept in the BSP, they are actually baked into the map and the misc_model entity do not reference to the attached model file. So when decompiled, that misc_model entity can point to non-existing model, so it won't whow up in Radiant.

Decompile resets the texture scale, position and rotation settings in all brushwork and patchwork. So you will need to manually set these back to the original.

If I may to write the image analogy:
It's something like trying to convert compressed JPG file back to the original uncompressed BMP file. You won't never get the original one as you are trying to retrieve already lost informations... When you convert BMP file to JPG, you're first prompted to set the percent of quality. More percent is more data perserved. But you will never perserve all the original image data. You will always lose some amout of quality. So when you try to convert that JPG file back to BMP, it will never be the original one.



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PostPosted: 06-20-2016 10:58 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yes I noticed that. The tex coords all seemed to be locked at 0.5 (which makes them useless data.) And when I browse maps on the website, authors seem to never upload the maps, only the bsps.

How would modders go about this? How do they customize already existing quake maps?

My other question is, does the q3map2 "jinx" the vertex location data too? Because it only seems to have half of the triangles. So either q3map2 jinxes it and converts it badly, or it's my fault (In which case I need to learn and understand the Q3 map specs which I can't seem to find anywhere.)




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Mercenary
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Joined: 15 Feb 2010
Posts: 205
PostPosted: 06-20-2016 12:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Voyager2 wrote:
How would modders go about this? How do they customize already existing quake maps?

Contact the original author for permission. Get the Map file from the author or by decompiling the bsp.
If it's an original id map, just decompile. (It's for the Q3 community!) :D

In case of decompiling: You have to fix all the texture align on brushes, (curves will be fine) and set all detail-brushes new because all brushes will be structural.


Quote:
My other question is, does the q3map2 "jinx" the vertex location data too? Because it only seems to have half of the triangles. So either q3map2 jinxes it and converts it badly, or it's my fault (In which case I need to learn and understand the Q3 map specs which I can't seem to find anywhere.)


Maybe this can help you: https://web.archive.org/web/20051212023 ... nical.html



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Recruit
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Joined: 19 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: 06-21-2016 07:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for the document, but I dont think it explains the missing triangle thing.

Ok I think I get it now, the vertices aren't stored in the actual brush, insyead they are hyperplanes subdividing the brush itself, to create a volume.




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