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Topic Starter Topic: Outrage: a new Quake 3: Arena map for testing

Trainee
Trainee
Joined: 25 May 2016
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 10:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hello all. As some of you are aware, I've been getting into this map-building thing. The time has come to venture forth with it, so here it is: my first Quake 3: Arena map, Outrage.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gaqkge0fgulwse5/outrage_b03.pk3?dl=0 (updated to current beta)

I hope some of you will take the plunge and beta test this with me. Rest assured, I have tested the hell out of this thing before going beta.

It's too big. The size and requirements for this would be absurd for contemporaneous hardware (1999). It's very single-player-ish. There are traps, gizmos and windtunnels. If, back in the day, you used to redo maps in Quake 1 SP in order to find all the secrets, you'll like this. There are count them ten (10) misc_teleporter_dest entities. Can you find them all?
There is an arena file, and bot support. There's also a "read me" in /scripts.
There's music, which may change or get pulled, and the narration could get pulled: these 2 files are 33% of the download.

I may spin this out to a single player map, and I have a CTF version I'm tinkering with, but DM is how it begins. So long story short: I'm prepared to make some signifiacant changes to this. So if your feedback = a ground-up rewrite, let's hear it. I've lurked for quite a bit at Q3W lately, and used to post here regularly back in the day ('00-02) as RojaN, but as a map maker I'm a noob. I know there's excess geometry and hinting and other optimizations needed. Lay it on me.

I hope you enjoy it, it's been a blast making it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The map revolves around a central building, the Sul-Dov, with 4 underground passages connecting this to outlying buildings at the compass points. These 5 buildings are the Quincunx. North is the Power Plant. South is the Mad Duke's Fortress. East is the Command Center. West is the Water Plant.

Southeast you'll find Mt. Despite separated from the Fortress by a deep ravine. Southwest is the Duke's Labrynth. Northwest is the Reactor, just north of the reservoir. To the Northeast towers the Ziggurat, by far the oldest thing in the District of Outrage.




Last edited by RojaN Returned on 08-03-2016 08:35 AM, edited 2 times in total.

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Theftbot
Theftbot
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 11:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Why no Images?




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 02:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Just was a little rushed running out the door. Here are some views:
Attachment:
File comment: Scoreboard/intermission shot
intermission.jpg
intermission.jpg [ 60.45 KB | Viewed 208 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: Note the elements in the ceiling of the reactor pool.
reactorpool.jpg
reactorpool.jpg [ 43.44 KB | Viewed 196 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: If only the RL was somewhere else, you might be able to get some peace in here.
grotto.jpg
grotto.jpg [ 45.37 KB | Viewed 211 times ]


More below.




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 02:27 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Views continued:
Attachment:
File comment: The Sul Dov dominates the Precinct of Outrage.
sul_dov.jpg
sul_dov.jpg [ 57.29 KB | Viewed 187 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Within the Command Center is the Control Room, if you can reach it.
cmdctrcr.jpg
cmdctrcr.jpg [ 108.63 KB | Viewed 191 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: The Power Plant controls the Reactor.
powerplantint.jpg
powerplantint.jpg [ 42.11 KB | Viewed 191 times ]




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 02:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Views continued:
Attachment:
File comment: Your time in Outrage begins here, in Spawn Chamber of the Sul Dov, at the center of the Quincunx.
spawnchamber.jpg
spawnchamber.jpg [ 30.16 KB | Viewed 180 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Contempt and respect inform the exploitation of the ancients.
desecration.jpg
desecration.jpg [ 75.2 KB | Viewed 194 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: The Command Center lies across the upper lava pool, between the Ziggurat and Mt. Despite.
cmdctrint.jpg
cmdctrint.jpg [ 110.68 KB | Viewed 203 times ]




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 02:41 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Attachment:
File comment: The Mad Duke is responsible for the use of the District in the games of the Arena.
madduke.jpg
madduke.jpg [ 43.17 KB | Viewed 192 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: Mt. Despite held special value for the ancients, but after the hellspawn's corruption, the bridge was severed and the obelisk toppled at the time of the sealing.
mtdespite.jpg
mtdespite.jpg [ 71.36 KB | Viewed 204 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Seriously, it's not funny.
notfunny.jpg
notfunny.jpg [ 86.73 KB | Viewed 193 times ]




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 02:45 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Attachment:
File comment: Fluid Processing is central to the power of Outrage.
waterplant.jpg
waterplant.jpg [ 63.37 KB | Viewed 173 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: The ravine separates the Fortress from Mt. Despite.
fog.jpg
fog.jpg [ 53.41 KB | Viewed 189 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: Do I have to draw a map for you?
birdseye.jpg
birdseye.jpg [ 94.46 KB | Viewed 198 times ]




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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 06:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Cant see anything - pure darkness, did you linked the right file?



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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 06:28 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AndyW wrote:
Cant see anything - pure darkness, did you linked the right file?

Hrm. I dl'd from the link that I shared and the map loaded fine. I keep a "clean" version of ioquake3 going for testing, so there shouldn't be a dependency issue. Vanilla Quake 3 won't run on my current OS so I haven't tested there. I'll do some more digging around and see if there's something else.




Last edited by RojaN Returned on 07-30-2016 06:51 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-29-2016 06:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tested okay on both W7 and Yosemite. ioquake version from 15MAR16.




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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 07-30-2016 05:19 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Okay i will try IOQuake, tested with q3a-vanilla.
But alot of stuff looks very dark on my setup, maybe its really my display :(



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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-30-2016 06:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Another day, another beta:

(link removed; see top or bottom for latest beta)

Changes were an expansion to space at the ground floor of the Power Plant, shrinking the baffle that the spinning elements on the jump ring go behind to eliminate collision, making the spinning drums more truly circular, and removal of an overlapped brush causing z-fighting in the command center.




Last edited by RojaN Returned on 08-03-2016 08:36 AM, edited 2 times in total.

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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-30-2016 07:10 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AndyW wrote:
Okay i will try IOQuake, tested with q3a-vanilla.
But alot of stuff looks very dark on my setup, maybe its really my display :(


Thanks for testing.

Try jacking the gamma in the Q3 system settings. Just a thought.




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-30-2016 03:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AndyW wrote:
Okay i will try IOQuake, tested with q3a-vanilla.
But alot of stuff looks very dark on my setup, maybe its really my display :(


I downloaded the old Id binary for windows and loaded it up. No sound. The brightness seems bugged on my setup (Windows 7 x64), if you change the other settings it goes real dark. You can get it boosted somewhat by dragging the brightness slider (in menu setup/system/display) all the way down and then back again. Still very dark on all maps; particularly mine though. Even here, the slider is only responsive for a notch or 2; after that it goes up without any change to the brightness.

I also see that my sky has a hairline of black at the joins not present in ioquake. Is this a known issue with skyboxes in vanilla q3?

For now, I'm going to recommend testing with ioquake, but any advice on getting the original quake 3 to play nice is appreciated. I have an old G5 mothballed that I'm going to set up for further testing: I know that system likes my old CD version fine, and the X800 should be able to handle the map. That should help determine how much of this is about modern systems not liking the old game vs my map needing a fix.




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-30-2016 06:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Attachment:
File comment: ioquake shot 1
ioquakeravine.jpg
ioquakeravine.jpg [ 75.28 KB | Viewed 179 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: Quake 3 Arena shot 1
quake3ravine.jpg
quake3ravine.jpg [ 106.08 KB | Viewed 180 times ]
Okay the plot thickens: I took some screenshots of the same parts of the map ioquake vs vanilla, and expected to be contrasting the super dark vanilla but no! The screenshots were overbright, not dark. As though the brightness slider is changing it at the higher positions, it just isn't displayed for some reason.

Anyhow, the map is not dark in the screenies.




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Theftbot
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PostPosted: 07-31-2016 12:45 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


perfect lighting for "Doom 3"




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 07-31-2016 03:45 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


RojaN Returned wrote:
I also see that my sky has a hairline of black at the joins not present in ioquake. Is this a known issue with skyboxes in vanilla q3?

Yeah it's a known issue. You have an ATI/AMD gpu I bet? Thr ptoblem didnt show up on nVidia hardware. It's an issue with how Q3 clamps skybox textures.
I think q3map2 has a switch to fix this during compile time though. Not sure what it was, but I think -skyfix during the bsp phase.

Edit:
Yeah I was right with skyfix
https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Q3Map2/BSP




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-31-2016 07:28 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Theftbot wrote:
perfect lighting for "Doom 3"

Yes, it's very moody. Dynamic lighting was always a disappointment in Q3 after firing rockets down corridors in Quake used to serve well to probe ahead, in Quake 3 you got nuthin. I may indeed end up porting this, but doing a Quake 3 map in Radiant was an old ambition that I set aside, partly because the Mac version (long vaporware) took so long to come out that I had moved on to other games by then. So this was "unfinished business" for me.

I really disliked Doom 3 as a game, but lighting being a "first class citizen" was a real winner. I'm given to understand it's more of a pain to develop for, however. Honestly, the original Quake is the real inspiration for much of this. I probably spent more time fragging in Quakeworld than in either 2 or 3. Usually on servers that used SP maps, can you tell?

Has anyone given this thing a whirl yet?




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-31-2016 07:37 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
RojaN Returned wrote:
I also see that my sky has a hairline of black at the joins not present in ioquake. Is this a known issue with skyboxes in vanilla q3?

Yeah it's a known issue. You have an ATI/AMD gpu I bet? Thr ptoblem didnt show up on nVidia hardware. It's an issue with how Q3 clamps skybox textures.
I think q3map2 has a switch to fix this during compile time though. Not sure what it was, but I think -skyfix during the bsp phase.

Edit:
Yeah I was right with skyfix
https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Q3Map2/BSP


Thank you sir. I'll put that in the next beta. I'm going to take some time at some point to experiment with the BSP stuff, I'm still using GTKRadiant's "full final" menu option. I'd like to move to using a .bat file, as I do already with the bspc phase. I use 1.6.4, mostly, but I have to use 1.6.5 bspc for the .aas since 1.6.4 chokes if I send it through the menu. Too much geometry, I guess.

BTW, when you bsp the map, the bsp file is created early, I guess from the first pass, and you can open it in Q3 and everything is fullbright. I'm wondering if it's okay to start the bspc at this point, if the only thing missing is lighting.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 07-31-2016 08:07 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah you can bspc a map without Vis or Light stages. The aas is generated without problems.

As for firing up q3map2 with the correct options, try one of the many GUI interface available. I can recommend Quake Toolkit since I made it myself :D




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 07-31-2016 10:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
Yeah you can bspc a map without Vis or Light stages. The aas is generated without problems.

As for firing up q3map2 with the correct options, try one of the many GUI interface available. I can recommend Quake Toolkit since I made it myself :D


Thanks, Eraser. Looks like a fantastic collection of tools. I tried Q3map2gui and didn't like the results I was getting. The GTKradiant "full final" goes in several passes, it seems. I need to understand better how to structure this if doing it multipass is truly advantageous, beyond what individual settings might do. I guess I'll make a smaller map for testing that :rolleyes:




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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 08-01-2016 12:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Anyway, it seems that you got the editor under control!
I see you map as a test-map, but thats not meant bad.
Check those links:

Q3A ITEM PLACEMENT GUIDE
by Pat H:
- viewtopic.php?t=50729

Fundamentals of Gameplay Part I
by Pat H:
- viewtopic.php?t=50394

Fundamentals of Gameplay Part II
by Pat H:
- http://quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=50437

Connectivity Systems
by Pat H:
- viewtopic.php?f=10&t=51102

Try to figure out a layout and setting for a small map and there you go ;)
:up:

EDIT:I love the Music, is it your own work?



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Trainee
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PostPosted: 08-01-2016 02:20 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


RojaN Returned wrote:
The GTKradiant "full final" goes in several passes, it seems. I need to understand better how to structure this if doing it multipass is truly advantageous, beyond what individual settings might do.


Upon reading some of the docs, and looking at the GTKradiant "full final" command, what I get is this:
The first pass is bsp, not specified because it is the default; followed by vis and finally light, which are specified. So I'm sticking the -skyfix in right after -meta on the first pass.

So far so good?

Update:
-skyfix works. Hairline gone in vanilla q3a.




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 08-02-2016 11:06 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AndyW wrote:
Anyway, it seems that you got the editor under control!
I see you map as a test-map, but thats not meant bad.

...

EDIT:I love the Music, is it your own work?


Spiderman 2001: "Back to formula?!!!" :mad:

Thank you for taking the time to load the map and take a look.

I take it that you mean it's a test-map beyond the sense that a beta is inherently a test. Certainly it's experimental. As I indicated in my first post, I am exploring here on a very fundamental level, even as to gametype, but I wouldn't bother the board with a map that I was only using to build skills with. I have read some of the articles that you linked to previously, all knowledge is good, but I admit to being a rebel on some of this. I guess some of my non-conformity is from being torn between different types of game experiences... yet I admit that I've always been offbeat when it comes to that. Myst was an influence on this, probably a bad idea for a Q3A DM map. I dislike the "perfect DM map" because in short order you know every corner and are just competing, while I like to play a map that you can get lost in, and discover new elements late in the day. My time in film school also affects me, thus the "Doom 3 lighting."

I'm leaning towards Eraser's Entity Plus at this point for this, sealing off large areas that have to be earned, and developing the backstory in the outrage.txt
that can be heard if you touch the computer behind the powerplant inside the excavation of the ziggurat, past the deadly altar
So my purposes here are more long-term, aside from developing the necessary skills. I swore that I wouldn't wrap my head around shaders for this... oh, well, a nice idea while it lasted.

I mentioned in my initial post that this map is too big. Partly, that means that any smart fragger who wants to win will stay in the Quincunx, where players tend to spawn and the greatest concentration of weapons and powerups reside, making those who spawn in outlying areas scramble to get back to the action. It also means that some parts of the map have gotten the TLC that smaller maps get overall, while other parts get short shrift and remain in "sketch" levels of development. As I continue to work, these areas end up getting the love, but I completely understand folks taking it as they see it.

After 2 months of banging on this thing, I felt an obligation to get a second opinion, and you guys, for better or for worse, are the gold standard. The new beta has taken the indirect feedback to heart. If there could be direct feedback, I would value that greatly. What's best? What's worst? Layout. Design. Gameplay. Whatever.

Did you ever resolve the tech issue that you had? Are you still working within the original Q3A from Id, or did you get ioquake going?

Yes, it's my music. I'm glad you like it. I was sure this was the thing that the hammer would come down on: "great map, but the music has got to go." LOL. For my inspiration, check out Oliver Nelson's score for the Six Million Dollar Man. Oh, I'm showing my age!

Thanks again for checking it out, and I may indeed make a small map at some point, as hard as it may be for me. :olo:




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Trainee
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PostPosted: 08-02-2016 11:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Beta 3, FWIW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gaqkge0fgulwse5/outrage_b03.pk3?dl=0

Changes are many.
Relight of much of the map, for higher key look. Even the sun is brighter (plus -skyfix, ht Eraser). Mood is retained for certain places, esp for traps.
Added new room with YA to base level of command center, removed some decor for ease of navigation.
Added windtunnel and ramps in water processing. RA now accessible from below (remains accessible from roof of power plant).
Expanded tunnel under mountain to grotto, improved grotto navigation.
Improved navigation under the mountain near jump pad to peak.
Removed corner balcony elements from Sul-Dov for gameplay improvements.
Redirected ravine jump pad to newly opened balcony above.
Knocked shader out of "shingles." Just a jpeg now.
Surfaceparm/slick for rotating drums.
Completely redid cliff steps in ravine.
Massive reform of geometry under mountain, major structural --> detail conversions (bsp is now 25% faster).
Attachment:
File comment: The Fortress interior is substantially brighter now.
fortress_bright.jpg
fortress_bright.jpg [ 68.11 KB | Viewed 175 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: Still a peaceful place, if the bots would stop coming for the RL.
brightergrotto.jpg
brightergrotto.jpg [ 79.24 KB | Viewed 174 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: An additional room with a new spawn point in the command center.
YAcmnd.jpg
YAcmnd.jpg [ 92.01 KB | Viewed 174 times ]




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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 09-01-2016 01:17 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nice skybox, RojaN Returned! Where has that photo been taken?



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Trainee
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PostPosted: 09-02-2016 01:38 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


monaster wrote:
Nice skybox, RojaN Returned! Where has that photo been taken?

Thank you. I spent many hours online searching for something that would be convincing and matched the vision that I had, a couple more redoing the wraparound in Photoshop, and a couple days waiting with bated breath to hear back from the original photographer for permission. The answer to your question lurks in the "outrage.txt" in /scripts:

"Skybox from panorama of Wright Mountain, WA, by Aaron Wilson; used with permission.
See http://images.summitpost.org/original/955544.jpg "

Great site, BTW, if you like natural wonders.

I've changed the bottom to clouds for my current rev; if you get up high enough and look down, I have a rock texture for the down side, that blends in the lower halves of the l/r/f/b sides, which was a little awkward. Clouds look better to my eye. Also ditched the depthwrite on the cloud layers that were giving HOM effect now and then. I'll be posting that soon.




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