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Topic Starter Topic: Mapping for Quake Live - Tips?

Boink!
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PostPosted: 11-30-2016 10:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I recently started playing through the many new maps for Quake Live, and especially liked playing them in Instagib mode. This made me think of updating several of my old maps, to make them run under Quake Live... I was thinking of new compiles, not just bsp file hacks of the version number, what Hipshot explained in a post a while back.

A few things I am wondering about though.

  • I take it using GTKradiant 1.6.5 will let me directly edit my old Q3A maps in Quake Live mode?

  • There are tons of custom maps, notably those cityy did available under Quake Live. This means that the main Q3A game was massively expanded regarding new textures one should be able to use? Notably an extensive Egyptian texture set... so can we as mappers simply use these assets for our maps? Or are there restrictions I should be aware of. From what I have seen, some of the custom textures I used in AEpyra are now part of QL, so this would let me cut down on assets somewhat.

  • I have not played much FFA so far, but I did note quite a few new weapons have been added to Quake Live. Question is, are any of them actually worth adding to "re-edited" maps? Those new machine-gun-types seemed slightly pointless to me. But to be honest I would not know. Which new weapons are worth adding to FFA maps?

  • My main focus will at first probably be Instagib, thus an edit of AEpyra and AEtime (possibly also AEdm17). I converted the first two to Reflex a while ago... see AEpyraR2 - AEon's Pyramid for Reflex 2 for a mesh version of AEpyra. The QL version would get more detail and more streamlining (not meshes though)... AEtime should be fun to play in instagib as well, IMO. AEdm7 with FFA focus would be a later project.

  • Am I correct in assuming that any old Q3A shader will most probably work with QL?

  • Playing Instagib I watched how the bots play on hardcore difficulty quite closely, and noted that they seem to jump more, especially traversing gaps even. Did the bot AI get improved? And are there new entities one might be able to add to QL maps to improve AI navigation in maps?

  • I read something about uploading maps to the Steam Workshop... seems to be more than a file upload... any insights into this would be appreciated. I.e. what to look out for, or some guide.

  • Using ydnar's q3map2 to compile maps features some quite advanced compile options. Do we continue to use the his latest version or does one need to use some other version? I assume one should use the version that comes with Radiant 1.6.5?

  • Also wondering about bspc, and if that will work with the old parameters we have been using under Q3A?

  • And good guides out there that would highlight the additional features in QL and how to use them?

I was thinking of using the main QL folder as the mapping/development one, and duplicate it first to use that as a clean install for local testing. Hope that will work like for Q3A.

All the feedback I get could be put into a FAQ for other folks interested... at some point.

Thanks.




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 11-30-2016 12:36 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hey AEon, good to see you!


AEon wrote:
I recently started playing through the many new maps for Quake Live, and especially liked playing them in Instagib mode. This made me think of updating several of my old maps, to make them run under Quake Live... I was thinking of new compiles, not just bsp file hacks of the version number, what Hipshot explained in a post a while back.

A few things I am wondering about though.

  • I take it using GTKradiant 1.6.5 will let me directly edit my old Q3A maps in Quake Live mode?



Yes, the .map files are identical, the change of BSP Format is a matter of setting the right game when compiling with Q3map2. If you compile from radiant, and use the QL gamepack that will work automatically for you I guess.

AEon wrote:
  • There are tons of custom maps, notably those cityy did available under Quake Live. This means that the main Q3A game was massively expanded regarding new textures one should be able to use? Notably an extensive Egyptian texture set... so can we as mappers simply use these assets for our maps? Or are there restrictions I should be aware of. From what I have seen, some of the custom textures I used in AEpyra are now part of QL, so this would let me cut down on assets somewhat.


  • You should be able to use anything that ships with QL; just like with the Q3 textures. Editing and repacking the stock textures is not really allowed though; just like it always was.

    AEon wrote:
  • I have not played much FFA so far, but I did note quite a few new weapons have been added to Quake Live. Question is, are any of them actually worth adding to "re-edited" maps? Those new machine-gun-types seemed slightly pointless to me. But to be honest I would not know. Which new weapons are worth adding to FFA maps?


  • No.

    AEon wrote:
  • My main focus will at first probably be Instagib, thus an edit of AEpyra and AEtime (possibly also AEdm17). I converted the first two to Reflex a while ago... see AEpyraR2 - AEon's Pyramid for Reflex 2 for a mesh version of AEpyra. The QL version would get more detail and more streamlining (not meshes though)... AEtime should be fun to play in instagib as well, IMO. AEdm7 with FFA focus would be a later project.


  • Yes!

    AEon wrote:
  • Am I correct in assuming that any old Q3A shader will most probably work with QL?


  • Yes.

    AEon wrote:
  • Playing Instagib I watched how the bots play on hardcore difficulty quite closely, and noted that they seem to jump more, especially traversing gaps even. Did the bot AI get improved? And are there new entities one might be able to add to QL maps to improve AI navigation in maps?


  • I think there were some small improvements for bots a few years ago. No about the entities though.

    AEon wrote:
  • I read something about uploading maps to the Steam Workshop... seems to be more than a file upload... any insights into this would be appreciated. I.e. what to look out for, or some guide.


  • V1l3 is the one who knows best about this I guess.

    AEon wrote:
  • Using ydnar's q3map2 to compile maps features some quite advanced compile options. Do we continue to use the his latest version or does one need to use some other version? I assume one should use the version that comes with Radiant 1.6.5?


  • Yes the one that comes with 1.6.5 should be the latest one. It includes a 64 bit version nowadays.

    AEon wrote:
  • Also wondering about bspc, and if that will work with the old parameters we have been using under Q3A?


  • Yes.

    AEon wrote:
  • And good guides out there that would highlight the additional features in QL and how to use them?


  • Not really, a lot of stuff got lost when the QL Forums went down. Basically there is a propper shader for ladders now and tons of new gametypes that are mostly redundant except for race maybe. GTKradiant 1.6.5 ships with a .map file of infinity that has race points and also DOM points and most other stuff too iirc.

    AEon wrote:
    I was thinking of using the main QL folder as the mapping/development one, and duplicate it first to use that as a clean install for local testing. Hope that will work like for Q3A.


    I haven't made maps for QL since it went to steam so I don't know if you can simply duplicate it. Let me know if it works though. If it fails you can always use wolfcamQL.

    AEon wrote:
    All the feedback I get could be put into a FAQ for other folks interested... at some point.

    Thanks.


    You are more than welcome!



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    Boink!
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    PostPosted: 11-30-2016 01:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    cityy,
    Well... I actually was here... I turned into one of the "lurkers" :)... thanks for the feedback... that cleared up a lot.

    The only thing I found a bit disappointing with QL was, that *really" creative maps, with alien or very modern architecture are not in there. It seems like the really good maps dominate by using detail on detail... and very clever use of existing Q3A form language. This is still impressive, but I had hoped for some really cool "out there" designs.

    This is one of the reasons, I hope to be able to get something like that done... my probably most out there map was the Brasilia inspired AEarcs:

    Image

    I really hope to get something like that modernized (no lava, I mean the shapes) as a Instagib map... well... hopefully.

    More thoughts:

    • What is up with the QL signs and "glass banners"? Many maps seem to show then, and all the original updated Q3A maps feature them. Is this the "good" thing to do? I am guessing external custom maps don't need to add them... though as deco it might be fun add them I was thinking. Is there any source, i.e. prefabs available for such banners?

    Hopefully, I will get into mapping again around xmas.




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    The hell good boy
    The hell good boy
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    PostPosted: 11-30-2016 01:44 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    I don't think it will change something on that the game is payed. But if you want, you can include them :) Well, you can make your own prefabs, but I'm not sure, if the advertisement entity is still present in the game code (or compiler code) and how to handle them now...



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    This is not Æon!
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    PostPosted: 11-30-2016 05:02 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    Don't use botroam. Seems it don't work(?)

    There's no reason to do the QL banners and glass thingies, I think they were left over from some kinda of failed banner attempt by iD?



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    Mercenary
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    PostPosted: 11-30-2016 09:02 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    QL Workshop upload guide: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =539821860

    Some QL bugs i noticed:
    - MipMap bug with odd texture sizes. (alsways use 32 64 128 256... or 96 192 384...)
    - Botroam "weight" key doesn't work.
    - lightgrid "disco light bug" in dark areas. (can be fixed with "_mingridlight 1" in worldspawn, but makes the models also a little bit to bright)
    - dynamic mapmodels (model2 key) are to bright.
    - menu levelshot doesn't work for custom maps.

    Removed stuff:
    - no pentagrams and gore stuff in "baseql"
    - no remap shader (targetShaderNewName)

    New stuff:
    - "author" key in worldspawn
    - new "gametype" keys: "ffa duel race tdm ca ctf 1f ob har ft dom ad rr" (now separated by space - not by comma!) => small enitity gametype guide
    - universal ammo boxes "ammo_pack" for global ammo
    - custom door sounds
    - doors with keys
    - maybe some stuff I forgot... :D



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    \kill
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    PostPosted: 11-30-2016 10:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    I've returned to playing more Q3A than QL lately, and I really think that the bots in QL are terrible now compared to Q3A. I hadn't really focused on the vQ3 bots in the past because I had been playing CPMA's bots for so long prior my being introduced to QL, to get me back into vQ3 styled gameplay. I'm getting my ass handed to me by the Q3A edawn nightmare bots on the QL maps that were ported over to Q3A by Oxothuk. It's amazing to me that they play those maps so much better in Q3A. I know that their focus in QL is for people vs. people, so I don't think that they put much care into them to be honest.

    I want to play more QL, but someone kept cutting me from the game so I couldn't connect to servers...

    If you can get the bots to play good on your maps, AEon, that would be great. I had ported over like over 300 maps to QL and I ended up trashing half of them because the bots either wouldn't work, or they just stood still...like on wvwq3dm2 for example when it's ported over. The aas files on the older Q3W maps seem to port over better than on the newer maps that have been released on ..::LvL. The bots were fine on solarae when I ported that over, but I couldn't get the aas to run on aedm7, which was what I really thought would be the good one to add to QL for larger matches.




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    Boink!
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    PostPosted: 12-01-2016 03:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    Hipshot,
    I think the only time I actually used the Botroam "weight" key was in SolarAE... and that would be another map I would want to port to QL as well... since it is one of the few maps where I really loved your original layout. Not using "weight" should be possible... back then I used it to get the bots to use the AP to the Quad, and that sorta worked in Q3A.

    sst13,
    thanks that overview and the guide links are appreciated. Will need to see what game types will need to be added to the maps, I think CA was one of the new ones that would also work with FFA maps... need to play those new game types first though ;).

    universal ammo boxes "ammo_pack" for global ammo

    What does this universal part actually do? On the fly ammo added at "random"?

    v1l3,
    yeah... noted a few weird thing with bots. E.g. them getting stuck on certain ledge corners, or jumping into goo/water and then not moving any longer. As if the bots are not aware of "this is a liquid" and/or "this causes damage avoid it" at times. Could be the custom liquid shaders that were used in "custom QL" maps where I noted this.

    I am hoping that new compiles, i.e. those for the bots will let me fix the AI for AEdm7 when I get to that.


    Great comments so far... thanks.... this should help me get off to a good, informed start.




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    surfaceparm nomarks
    surfaceparm nomarks
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    PostPosted: 12-01-2016 03:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    sst13 wrote:
    - doors with keys


    Oooh yes, this is probably one of the most exciting additions! How could I forget =)



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    The hell good boy
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    PostPosted: 12-01-2016 07:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    sst13, why in German? :( I remember your sites in English, now ONLY in German. Why don't you implement dual-lang feature?



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    Mercenary
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    PostPosted: 12-01-2016 08:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    AEon wrote:
    What does this universal part actually do? On the fly ammo added at "random"?

    It's a little bit like the old backpacks from Doom1+2 & Q1+2. It gives You ammo for all weapons you are carrying at the moment.
    You don't need to search for the right ammo anymore with Global Ammo on.

    It works like this:

    Image

    If you don't distribute Global Ammo packs in your map and Global Ammo is voted, there will be no ammo at all. So it's a good idea to place some of the packs in your map.

    You need a little less boxes as your default weapon ammo, because there is more ammo inside. Maybe 2/3 up to 3/4 of the original amount.



    CZghost wrote:
    sst13, why in German? :( I remember your sites in English, now ONLY in German. Why don't you implement dual-lang feature?

    The Enitity Gametype Guide is in dual language (scroll down). And my site was always in german, except for the menu. ;)



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    Boink!
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    PostPosted: 12-01-2016 08:27 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    sst13,
    ah... great visuals on the global ammo... so one would really want to add those global ammo boxes to old maps, less of them obviously. OK... good to know.




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    Grunt
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    PostPosted: 12-01-2016 09:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    CZghost wrote:
    sst13, why in German? :( I remember your sites in English, now ONLY in German. Why don't you implement dual-lang feature?


    Taking those German Language classes definitely was worth it :olo:.



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    Boink!
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    PostPosted: 12-02-2016 07:10 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    Some other things I am wondering about...

    • Can it be that not every map was converted from Q3A to QL? Q3DM1 comes to mind...

    • I have noted that there are now white cross markers in the maps that seem to denote TP destinations. Are these added by the game dynamically, or has it become a tradition for QL to add them. Teleport destination spot camping is my immediate reaction to seeing those in the maps.




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    Mercenary
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    PostPosted: 12-02-2016 06:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    >> Can it be that not every map was converted from Q3A to QL? Q3DM1 comes to mind...

    You need this mappack: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... ext=arenas


    >> I have noted that there are now white cross markers in the maps that seem to denote TP destinations. Are these added by the game dynamically, or has it become a tradition for QL to add them. Teleport destination spot camping is my immediate reaction to seeing those in the maps.

    You have to add them manually - if you like.



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    PostPosted: 12-04-2016 02:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    sst13 wrote:
    >> Can it be that not every map was converted from Q3A to QL? Q3DM1 comes to mind...
    You need this mappack: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... ext=arenas

    Hmmm... I subscribed to that mappack (that really should mention the included maps by name), and Steam seems to have downloaded something... but when I try to run a local match via Start Match, I simply do not see e.g. q3dm1 in the Current Arena list of maps... Is there some strange "run game without external assets" option that has to be turned off first to be able to play the mappack maps? This is really confusing.

    I do not seem to be able to find the mappack in the game's main Steam folder either:
    Steam\steamapps\common\Quake Live\baseq3

    On the positive side, tested cityy's infinity.map with GTKradiant 1.6.5... that seems to work fine. Except for some of the wire mesh textures for fences not showing transparency.




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    Mercenary
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    PostPosted: 12-04-2016 02:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    @AEon:
    All Workshop items (like maps) are stored in the workshop folder: ...\SteamApps\workshop\content\*numbers*\*more-numbers*

    There are also no levelshots for the Extra Arenas. So look out for the QL logo in the Current Areans menu. Or try to start the map via console: \map arenagate ffa



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    The hell good boy
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    PostPosted: 12-05-2016 01:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    Looks like I'll start considering buying the game in Steam for development purposes :) But after I get some serious skills in level editing (and improve at least a little bit gameplay skills), before that I need to make some serious amount of VQ3 maps to start porting my maps to Quake Live :) I wanted to map for older Quake Live and get my maps checked and rated by id Software to include in official maps, but since QL ported to Steam and opened up to developers of such maps, it's no longer neccessary to send maps to id Software for check out, but directly upload it by Steam Workshop to be added in instant update :)



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    Boink!
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    PostPosted: 12-06-2016 08:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    sst13 wrote:
    @AEon:
    All Workshop items (like maps) are stored in the workshop folder: ...\SteamApps\workshop\content\*numbers*\*more-numbers*

    There are also no levelshots for the Extra Arenas. So look out for the QL logo in the Current Areans menu. Or try to start the map via console: \map arenagate ffa


    Thanks... hmmm... that sorta significantly sucks... the missing preview images for custom maps really is something that needs fixing pronto... hmmm...




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    \kill
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    PostPosted: 12-06-2016 01:39 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    The sole purpose of the levelshot\preview\image is for the voting feature at the end of a match, and for the during match callvote in-game menu. Like if you don't add a preview image, then it won't show up on the images in the vote boxes, for if servers choose to add one of your workshop maps to their map selections. I think that they left it so they don't show up on the server startup menu and the in-game browser, so that people could define which maps are the default maps versus what is from the workshop.

    If you port a map over that needs use of something which is already in one of Sponge's Workshop selections, like the one sst13 mentioned which has q3dm1 in it, then you need to make note of that on your Workshop item as well, that they need to subscribe to that one too. Most people who play the game, don't even use the workshop, and they just download the map pk3's directly from the server that they are playing in, so it's kind of a mess with a lot of missing textures in maps. The servers which have added "Q's" plus maps have missing textures on those maps, and it looks terrible..but no one seems to run r_picmip 0 in game, so they don't even take notice of it. I don't foresee them adding anything more to the game from the Q3A pak files either to make up for it. I had subscribed to the osp mappack, for example, and it would cause a missing water texture on the ospdm5 QL map port called "deepinside" on servers which hadn't subscribed to that Osp Mappack as well, and that is caused by a shader problem I believe from the osp mappack, because I had seen the same thing happen in my Q3A with that texture.

    The Workshop should have been set up in a way where people needed to submit their stuff to someone first to be tested, before it would go up, but it'll never run that way. I highly doubt that they are going to pay someone to do that..because it would be a full time job. If a group of us actually sat down and went through what is worth adding and already available from ..::LvL, it would be a great idea, but it would be time consuming, and it's difficult to get in touch with most of the official mappers. I took a lot of interest in that idea...but then they put up a thing for Quake Champions, and stopped with Quake Live. Some of the mappers who I had contacted to add their stuff have received temp bans(or whatever its called) from the Workshop for making an attempt to add their stuff....so it's like a big red flag to me.

    Please don't take any of this as me attacking the Workshop, because I would really like to see it perfected and to grow, but it is what it is.




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    This is not Æon!
    This is not Æon!
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    PostPosted: 12-06-2016 02:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    AEon wrote:
    sst13 wrote:
    @AEon:
    All Workshop items (like maps) are stored in the workshop folder: ...\SteamApps\workshop\content\*numbers*\*more-numbers*

    There are also no levelshots for the Extra Arenas. So look out for the QL logo in the Current Areans menu. Or try to start the map via console: \map arenagate ffa


    Thanks... hmmm... that sorta significantly sucks... the missing preview images for custom maps really is something that needs fixing pronto... hmmm...


    It sucks, but I'm pretty sure iD will never fix this issue with the preview images.



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    PostPosted: 12-06-2016 11:54 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


    Hipshot,
    that was the reason for my disappointment. After all this time, and I am way way waaay behind the times... this should have been fixed long ago. Oh well... I did note though that the preview images do exist for Extras maps in their .pk3 folder.




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