redq3dm6 - beta 2
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Author:  redfella [ 02-08-2005 01:35 PM ]
Post subject:  redq3dm6 - beta 2

The Shots (as url since lvlshot is not working yet):


The Notes:

This map is a tribute to vintage console gaming and early video gaming in general. I refer to this map as my beloved 'fuzzy pumper Atari muesum', but the short name is just, 'Tribute'.

This is the second beta of this map... I have added a bunch of content and reworked several rooms for better connectivity since beta 1. Because of this, the gameplay is significantly more compelling and can even be fun at times. Give beta 2 a whirl, its the best rendition of the fuzzy pumper yet.

(btw, I am looking for info pertaining to the gameplay specifically...)

The download: 8.5mb

Thanks in advance.

Author:  rep [ 02-08-2005 02:02 PM ]
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This has the best lighting I've seen in any home made Q3 engine map.

Edit: There are clipping issues with trim. For example, some trim in halls is easy to get caught on. There are also minor details everywhere that you can get caught on easily.


These 'candles' are an example. If I'm trying to be quiet, I would use the ramps beside the steps instead of the steps themselves. The base of the candles is just a tad too low and your head gets caught on them for a fraction of a second. This isn't really a clipping issue, but it's a 'getting stuck' issue. The candles could be raised ever so slightly and it would fix that.

Around the 2600 cartridges, the trim and architecture could be playerclipped. That way it would be impossible to get stuck on the trim.

Here is a tip that will help. I always did this: With any rounded shapes, a model or a patch, I properly clip it with standard brushes and simplify them to the most basic form of the shape so weapons like the grenade will properly deflect off of the surface, as the gamer would expect them to do.

Here is an example: Image

If I were running down that hallway with someone in pursuit, I might throw a grenade up there, Quake 1 style in hopes of it falling back on them. Collision is irrevocably flawed for high detailed meshes and patches in Q3 engine games. You can never duplicate the same ricochet twice, unless no motion has happened.

The best simplified form of that inverted dome would be a hexagon. I've illustrated three of the weaponclip faces, in the manner of which I would build them.

Edit: The map looks best when run with r_texturemode gl_nearest.

Author:  redfella [ 02-09-2005 05:26 AM ]
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Thanks for the comments rep. :D

Author:  Fjoggs [ 02-09-2005 05:30 AM ]
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I'm gonna give this a spin now, altough I'll comment on the gameplay only, not in the mood to look for bugs ;) :p

(also, for some reason this page loads very slow, dunno why)

Author:  redfella [ 02-09-2005 05:56 AM ]
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Fjoggs: That would be much appreciated! I am specifically looking for feedback on item placement, gameplay, and potential brush re-construction to make the map as slick as possible for LAN/internet gaming.

rep: What do you think about some of the things I mentioned about? I.E., item placement?

Author:  Fjoggs [ 02-09-2005 06:19 AM ]
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Keke, here goes:

To add some more interest in the following rooms, try changing some stuff around.

therefore: :p

Replace the current quad with a Red Armor


Personally, I can't stand the Flight, and BS get's the same job done, as you can Rocket jump to the specific spots you ment the flight to be useful for.

I didn't take the RG once, therefore try the following:

Now for some slight bugs, hehe :p

Did you strecth this texture 5.250 horizontally? (sometimes vertically) This will make it look more correct.

http://www.infosprite.com/members/Fjogg ... dm6-10.jpg

Some of the pics was a bit unnecessary though, but I felt like making funky pics in photshop :P

Author:  redfella [ 02-09-2005 06:38 AM ]
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Hmm, well I know Flight isn't liked very much amoungst q3 players, but it was suppose to be the answer to grabbing the RG if you couldn't rocket jump worth a shit.

As for the party room with no party-people... I was thinking about putting the Quad down there as well... So that solves that question. However, I don't think I like the idea of putting a Red Armor in place of the Quad, because the room is too glorious and needs to have a weapon located there (like a RL). -Not saying that a RA isnt important, but I think just swapping the RL and Quad would suffice. Whatcha think?

Author:  Fjoggs [ 02-09-2005 06:44 AM ]
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redfella wrote:
Hmm, well I know Flight isn't liked very much amoungst q3 players, but it was suppose to be the answer to grabbing the RG if you couldn't rocket jump worth a shit.

Yeah, I figured that out, but If you try out the teleporter, it would solve the problem and also make players go to that room more.

redfella wrote:
As for the party room with no party-people..

Make a target_location with the message "Party palace" :P

redfella wrote:
Not saying that a RA isnt important, but I think just swapping the RL and Quad would suffice. Whatcha think?

Yeah I hear that, but I felt that this map needs two RL, and I'm not sure where to place the second then.
Perhaps placing the RG down there instead with only 5 shots?

Author:  rep [ 02-09-2005 11:36 AM ]
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redfella wrote:
rep: What do you think about some of the things I mentioned about? I.E., item placement?

If you observe the best maps, regardless of the game they're designed for, simple item placement is always of paramount importance. The more simplistic you can make weapon and ammunition placement, the better in turn your map will be. There are areas which currently have a weapon or large ammunition box which are not a part of the general flow of the map. You want to keep these items within a few units of the course set by the shape of the map. For the best results, pick the main channels that connect to bridges and whatnot, and put the weapons there. Any other areas should be considered secondary, and are good for small health and armor shards, respectively.

The map is large, but if the weapons are kept near the pathways, it'll run a lot faster in battles with less than eight people. The outermost reaches of the map could be the home of major powerups, justifying the trip to these areas. Currently, you've done this with the location of the megahealth. It's far away from the major action to make the trip a risky endeavour which you'll certainly lose a frag or two in getting the powerup, but it's great that it's not in an area which would make it detrimental to gameplay. For example, placed right next to the lightning gun and quad damage.

Aesthetically, there are only a few things that I would change. One of the trim textures is much lower resolution than the rest, and it's mipmapping due to stretching is quite obvious when compared to the higher resolution textures. One must always try their best to keep a 1:1 pixel ratio with textures when possible, and I don't believe substituting a 128x128 for this 32x32 would be taxing. Edit: In case you wondered, the file which I am referring to of course is "var_wall_06.jpg," which is 128x128, however each tile is 32x32. The reason there are so many repeated tiles in this texture is to, oddly sounding enough, prohibit tiling repetition. Each one has a little detail added to them to trick the eye into believing that each is unique. You should remake this with much larger tiles, perhaps 64x64 each, alloting four per the same texture space.

Author:  Todtsteltzer [ 02-10-2005 10:17 AM ]
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Nice map, redfella, although there are too much JPs for my taste ;).
I also think, that the flight powerup is unnecessary (and it ruins botplay, because they can't handle the flight). I was able to fly outsight too, because there's an (invisible) opening in the glass wall.
Try adding the TP like Fjoggs suggested to have another way to reach the RG.

Btw., there's a misspelling in one of your shaders (should be 'sin' instead of 'sine'):

WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader
WARNING: invalid genfunc name 'sine' in shader

Author:  Hipshot [ 02-10-2005 11:08 AM ]
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Respect RedF. I'm gonna screen-comment on the map later too.


Author:  Lenard [ 02-10-2005 11:12 AM ]
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Aww.. I thought I was the only one that went outside. It was crazy fun being out in the street. You should just make a city street map. I loved that part.

Author:  rep [ 02-10-2005 02:11 PM ]
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Good point, Lenard. I didn't address that in my earlier post, so I will. The exterior city is great, especially for the engine it is in. Something that struck me as excellent was your [redfella] understanding of scale. Everything looks perfectly to scale; as good as it can get in the Quake 3 engine. The street and sidewalk are excellent.

I would suggest for the buildings, however, that you screw the brushes and create proper models in a modeling program, because unfortunately brush work is much more painstaking than vert pushing in a program such as 3D Studio Max, and you'll never get as beautiful as a result that you would with an ASE model.

Unless you plan on elaborating the purpose of the outer city, I suggest to drop the flight entity, and seal up the window. The city would make excellent eye candy, but I'm not sure if it's viable for in game action. A skybox would work greatly for realistic clouds, as well as larger skyscrapers, if you wish.

It's been a while since I've made any shaders, but for the sake of keeping your map beautiful, I suggest throwing a nopicmip line in all of your shaders. There is a way to prohibit the use of vertex lighting as well, but I can't remember what it was. This way, no one can rape the beauty of this piece by putting on not-so-pro video settings like r_picmip 10, etc. I don't know how you've structured your patches, but it might also be a good idea to convert them to ASE or a solid state LOD, so that people can't do r_subdivisions 100 and screw it up that way.

It's extremely easy to spot people in this level with the highest quality settings, so someone using those not-so-pro settings is gaining nothing and just making your map look like shit. The purpose of this map clearly is to impress, but it's no eye candy. It has potential... Tournament potential, if you rework some of the item placement, and clip off a lot of the problem spots I've mentioned previously.

Author:  voodoochopstiks [ 02-10-2005 02:40 PM ]
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It will get completely banned in tournaments if it has forced nopicmip and anti-low quality settings. If people want it to look good, they'll turn up the settings, it should be up to each and everyone to decide whether or not they want it to look good. I don't see why people can't have a bad looking map if they want to. A big reason why q3 is so popular in eastern europe is because the people don't have very good computers, and the good thing about quake 3 is that you can basically run it on any computer. Let the graphics-lovers like me run it at max quality, and let the others turn the settings down if they want to.

Nice looking map by the way, but I haven't really had chance to test it yet, I will soon.

Author:  rep [ 02-10-2005 03:33 PM ]
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Post second generation video cards, r_picmip has little effect on the performance. (Edit: In fact, high picmip settings actually perform a few frames per second slower than r_picmip 0 in many cases.)

The truth of this matter is that people with not-so-pro configs usually started out downloading them, and have tweaked them for years. The menus in Quake 3 allow for a certain amount of visual quality to be lost in favor of performance, however not to the point of r_picmip 10, r_mapooverbrightbits 4, r_subdivisions 100, r_lightmap 1 and other various not-so-pro settings.

Most people playing Quake 3 are idiots and are fixed with the belief that if they turn the settings up, it'll slow down their system. I have a friend who is running on a BFG GeForce 6800 OC Ultra who runs Quake 3 with these settings... That card gets over 150FPS in DOOM 3 on his system, but he's convinced that turning the settings to default in Quake 3 will not only make his FPS drop to 30, but make him a horrible player.

It doesn't make sense not to lock the features on a map that is beautiful. If this were some fucking geocomp trashmap, then it should be everything goes. There is a reason they changed the r_picmip command to a different cvar in DOOM 3. This is it.

Author:  voodoochopstiks [ 02-10-2005 04:28 PM ]
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Many friends of mine like r_picmip 10 because of the smooth style, don't ask me why, I'm a r_picmip 0 kind of guy myself, but forcing people to run high quality is not really the way to do it in my opinion. People playing the map less is the only thing that will happen.

When I play quake 3 on LAN on my 500mhz r_picmip 10 and vertex lighting helps fps quite a bit, and allows me to play with good fps.

I still don't see why people shouldn't be able to choose how they want to view the map. Those like you and me who like this kind of graphics should be able to run it at our settings, and the ones who like their smoothed out style should be able to run it at their setting.

Forcing people to do things a certain way is not the way to go.

Anyway, we should probably rest this debate and let the thread continue to do be about redfella's map?

Author:  rep [ 02-10-2005 05:04 PM ]
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Sure thing.

There are some things that people shouldn't have a choice in because they don't know what is best for them. For example, your r_picmip 10 will perform the same as r_picmip 4. Most likely, the only increase in performance you're getting is from the lightmap channel not being rendered, thus the r_vertexlight 1.

People visiting the Louvre don't get to put giant tits on the Mona Lisa., and people still view it all the time.

Author:  redfella [ 02-11-2005 02:44 PM ]
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I am going to try and get beta 3 done by the end of this weekend. So far this is what I have on my todo list (let me know if you spot anything I've missed):

- clipping - rework for supreme gameplay smoothness [done]
- nuke flight - replace near-by YA w/ RA [done]
- lighting - tweak minor lighting issues [done]
- music - add vintage arcade squeaks
- fix jp shader - cant believe no one caught this

Thats it really. I have decided that I don't want to move the Quad. I like it where it is. Bitches can take a bit of a walk and grab the RL if they really want it, ffs.

Author:  Fjoggs [ 02-11-2005 02:49 PM ]
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Well, that's not how you want it to happen but it's your choice. :P

Author:  Torchy [ 02-12-2005 06:37 AM ]
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the map looks very photorealistic, good job with the lighting and textures

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