Game of Thrones (season 6)

[xer0s]

Wow what a great episode. The ending was superb. Loved the whole theater play in Braavos, especially the bit with Sansa's boobies out.

Were those tits not spectacular? Wow...

[xer0s]

If it does go in that particular direction I'm gonna end up losing a shit ton of respect for it. BSG, LOST and Matrix did it only to fall flat on their arse and is used when they run out of ideas.

Trust me, it's bad. Everything else becomes redundant.

This is the way I look at it, and why it doesn't bother me. From Reddit:

I've seen a lot of people confused about the implications of the scene last night on how time works in ASOIAF, and how it opens up a lot of paradoxes. And I'm here to tell you, no it doesn't.

"The past is already written. The ink is dry."

Time travel in ASOIAF follows Novikov's Self-Consistency Principle, which posits that there is only one timeline, and people who go in the past to change the past have already changed the past and that it was destined to happen all along.

Two major examples in pop culture of other stories that follow this rule. Harry Potter and Futurama.

In Harry Potter, the use of time turners made many people confused. "Why not use them to go back in time and kill Voldemort as a child? Why not save Harry?" Because time travel can't change the past, it can only cause it to happen. When Hermione and Harry use the time turner in Prisoner of Azkaban, they don't change the past by saving Sirius and Buckbeak, they had already saved Sirius and Buckbeak. They went into the past to conclude their destiny to save them.

In Futurama, Fry goes back in time and accidentally kills his grandfather and sleeps with his grandmother. They all expect him to cease existing until they realize that Fry is his own grandfather after all, and the only reason he exists is because he went back in time to sleep with his grandmother (I'll grant that this one is a tad more paradoxical).

Which leaves us with time travel in ASOAIF. Last night, Bran didn't change the past by causing Hodor. Time, fate, destiny....those are written in stone. Bran was always destined to go back and warg into Wylis/Walder, turning him into Hodor. By doing this, it enables Hodor to continue to fulfill his destiny by making him a simpleton who has to help Bran when Bran gets paralyzed.

As for future implications, this means that Bran can't change the past to impact the future. He can't go back and convince the CotF to not create the first Other, he can't stop Ned from being beheaded or Robb from being betrayed. He can only interact with the past to cause the timeline to continue as it already has.

[losCHUNK]

If it does go in that particular direction I'm gonna end up losing a shit ton of respect for it. BSG, LOST and Matrix did it only to fall flat on their arse and is used when they run out of ideas.

Trust me, it's bad. Everything else becomes redundant.

This is the way I look at it, and why it doesn't bother me. From Reddit:

I've seen a lot of people confused about the implications of the scene last night on how time works in ASOIAF, and how it opens up a lot of paradoxes. And I'm here to tell you, no it doesn't.

"The past is already written. The ink is dry."

Time travel in ASOIAF follows Novikov's Self-Consistency Principle, which posits that there is only one timeline, and people who go in the past to change the past have already changed the past and that it was destined to happen all along.

Two major examples in pop culture of other stories that follow this rule. Harry Potter and Futurama.

In Harry Potter, the use of time turners made many people confused. "Why not use them to go back in time and kill Voldemort as a child? Why not save Harry?" Because time travel can't change the past, it can only cause it to happen. When Hermione and Harry use the time turner in Prisoner of Azkaban, they don't change the past by saving Sirius and Buckbeak, they had already saved Sirius and Buckbeak. They went into the past to conclude their destiny to save them.

In Futurama, Fry goes back in time and accidentally kills his grandfather and sleeps with his grandmother. They all expect him to cease existing until they realize that Fry is his own grandfather after all, and the only reason he exists is because he went back in time to sleep with his grandmother (I'll grant that this one is a tad more paradoxical).

Which leaves us with time travel in ASOAIF. Last night, Bran didn't change the past by causing Hodor. Time, fate, destiny....those are written in stone. Bran was always destined to go back and warg into Wylis/Walder, turning him into Hodor. By doing this, it enables Hodor to continue to fulfill his destiny by making him a simpleton who has to help Bran when Bran gets paralyzed.

As for future implications, this means that Bran can't change the past to impact the future. He can't go back and convince the CotF to not create the first Other, he can't stop Ned from being beheaded or Robb from being betrayed. He can only interact with the past to cause the timeline to continue as it already has.

Woooah pony. It is paradoxical because Bran has already changed the past, he made Hodor Hodor innit. It's like the grandfather paradox in Futurama, how did it happen the 1st time and if you changed it the 1st time then 'destiny' isn't absolute. I think this is called the bootstrap paradox.

You can't win, it's why writers wrestle with the idea and fail.

[Eraser]

Unless you view time like a movie. The whole timeline, everything that happens is predetermined all at once, and what you experience is a replay of those events, similar to how playing a DVD never changes the outcome of the movie, regardless of how many times you play it or jump forward/backward in chapters.

[losCHUNK]

Just because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy doesn't make it any less of a paradox.

[Eraser]

Just because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy doesn't make it any less of a paradox.

There is no paradox because there is no cause and effect. The whole timeline is formed instantly as it is. It's not altered by Bran's meddling in the past because that's how the timeline always has been.

[losCHUNK]

The bootstrap paradox is a time travel paradox in which an object or information can exist without ever being created. The object or piece of information is sent back in time where it is retrieved and to become the very object or piece of information that was brought back in the beginning (Hodor, Hodor, Hodor)


It's still a paradox, it's just your theory allows it.

[losCHUNK]

Your theory too, destiny is absolute but time travel is possible. What happens when I go back to cut my own leg off ? (to claim benefits)

[Eraser]

Perhaps. In the end I don't really care. Time travel is not possible so you can't have a scientific discussion about it when you assume unscientific things from the start. GoT is a magical universe that I would think should be allowed some freedom in what can and cannot be done.

[Eraser]

Your theory too, destiny is absolute but time travel is possible. What happens when I go back to cut my own leg off ? (to claim benefits)

You'd be legless your entire life. See: Hodor.

[losCHUNK]

If it goes this way then I promise that you will end up disapointed.

[losCHUNK]

Your theory too, destiny is absolute but time travel is possible. What happens when I go back to cut my own leg off ? (to claim benefits)

You'd be legless your entire life. See: Hodor.

But I currently have both legs ?, I went back to yesterday to cut one off.

[losCHUNK]

Let me put it like this, the can of worms is open, Bran can time travel and can create paradoxes. This is all true.

So if they decide to go wild then the entire show, the story arcs, the characters, everything can become pre determined by Bran.

[Eraser]

Let me put it like this, the can of worms is open, Bran can time travel and can create paradoxes. This is all true.

So if they decide to go wild then the entire show, the story arcs, the characters, everything can become pre determined by Bran.

True, time travel opens a can of worms regardless (although I think the Soul Reaver series cleverly managed time travel. Reality woukd try to prevent history from being altered. Raziel felt physical resistence as he approached his own body in history. But when history ultimately got changed, the timeline would adapt to whatever you did. So if you're went back and hacked off your own arm, that would becomes your new reality and you wouldn't know better than having missed an arm ever since).

Anyway, GoT has been subtle with regard to magic so far so I expect them to be subtle with time travel ideas as well. But even if Bran turns out to be Bran the Builder, if they bring it in a tasteful way then I'd still have no problems with it. Star Trek always did OK with time travel, even though most of it can probably be scientifically debunked. The Terminator did quite OK as well, but I think that's mainly because it wasn't a main plot device, just a matter-of-fact thats-how-he-got-here kind of thing.

[losCHUNK]

Is that show like the Butterfly Effect then ?, that could be cool, it could be a bit Looper though.

And if it stays as it is then I can tolerate it, I'm not happy if it does mind because it'll be a cheap plot device, but Bran was a boring git anyway.

What me and Memph are worried about is that if it even tries to turn Bran into Bran the builder they will have no option but to go LOST, BSG and Matrix where everything that has happened is left un explainable. (Thanks to God / Time travel or destiny). I'm a little worried about those red priests for similiar reasons.

Unless you hunt the internet for a theory that allows for your paradox of course

[Eraser]

Is that show like the Butterfly Effect then ?, that could be cool, it could be a bit Looper though.

It's a videogame series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of ... oul_Reaver

[losCHUNK]

Ahh yea I remember that

Never played it, but I remember it

[Ryoki]

I concur with chunk & memph, it's an interesting but somewhat troubling turn of events story wise. Great ep in any case, i loved the Hodor bit

And i don't quite know what to make of the Littlefinger / Sansa conversation; it doesn't make much sense does it? I mean, the man who famously knows everything either underestimated Ramsay or he underestimated how Sansa would react to being sold into marriage with a monster... what's going on here? Is he losing his touch? Is this a plan of some sort?

[xer0s]

Woooah pony. It is paradoxical because Bran has already changed the past, he made Hodor Hodor innit. It's like the grandfather paradox in Futurama, how did it happen the 1st time and if you changed it the 1st time then 'destiny' isn't absolute. I think this is called the bootstrap paradox.

You can't win, it's why writers wrestle with the idea and fail.

Pretty sure Eraser already explained it, but he's right. Bran didn't and won't change anything. Like he said, the past is already written. He changed nothing. The only thing he did was watch everything take place as it had always been...

[Eraser]

[Eraser]

Gotta love Tormund
[lvlshot]http://i.imgur.com/5PPPvUn.jpg[/lvlshot]

[Eraser]

This best not pull a fucking Lost.

Ironically enough that last episode was directed by Jack Bender, who apparently was the lead director and executive producer on Lost

[losCHUNK]

Woooah pony. It is paradoxical because Bran has already changed the past, he made Hodor Hodor innit. It's like the grandfather paradox in Futurama, how did it happen the 1st time and if you changed it the 1st time then 'destiny' isn't absolute. I think this is called the bootstrap paradox.

You can't win, it's why writers wrestle with the idea and fail.

Pretty sure Eraser already explained it, but he's right. Bran didn't and won't change anything. Like he said, the past is already written. He changed nothing. The only thing he did was watch everything take place as it had always been...

*Something that exists without ever being created...*

[losCHUNK]

Ok let me break this fucker down to its frame...

1 thing happened over the final 5 minutes in the last episode and we are already talking about fucking destiny

[Eraser]

Yeah that's why I tried to make it about Tormund and Brienne having rough sex.