CSG Subtract! >:[

[primaltheory]

What is the limit for the amount of things or w/e to change when you subtract, it continues to crash on me...is there a way to raise this limit?

[pjw]

Fair warning: Using CSG-subtract when you're just getting started with mapping, is like jumping in a crappy overpowered duct-taped-together street racer when you've just gotten your learner's permit.

And the duct-tape burner has shitty brakes and blows up every now and then for no real reason.

It's much better to do the things you want using edge-manipulation and the clipper tool, both of which are very solid, and do everything that you could possibly do with subtract.

That being said, if you use it anyway, I would suggest subtracting no more than one brush from a small number (1-3?) of other brushes. I would also suggest making sure that all resulting brushes are on the grid afterward--this becomes tricky when the resulting brushes have faces that are angled on one or more axes.

[primaltheory]

Yea, I noticed...I eventually merge the stuff back together for performance but not untill later on...

I updated my map btw!

[SonicClang]

In Quake 1, before we had things like edge manipulation and vertex dragging, I used subtract (called Carve back then) ALL the time. It was the only way to make something of a strange shape. Now things are different though.

[primaltheory]

Yea I more or less fixed my problem. Vertex manipulation is tricky sometimes but i'm getting used to it.. (I use it alot on my meshes but not my brushes)

[seremtan]

CSG subtract is the ultimate n00b tool, and can do nothing that can't be done another way without crashing or other side-effects. avoid like the very plague itself

[seremtan]

In Quake 1, before we had things like edge manipulation and vertex dragging, I used subtract (called Carve back then) ALL the time. It was the only way to make something of a strange shape. Now things are different though.

carve is a different tool. he's talking about the thing beginners use to cut holes in walls

tbh i'm surprised BSP editors haven't expanded their functionality to allow for the creation of mesh-based objects (a la Max), which would really get the most out of vert manipulation without having to mess about with a 3rd-party modeller. i mean, it's all just triangles in the end, so why be restricted to convex shapes?

[pjw]

Vertex manipulation is tricky sometimes but i'm getting used to it.. (I use it alot on my meshes but not my brushes)

Yeah, good, don't use vertex manipulation on brushes--it's fine for patches, but can behave a little strangely on brushes and split faces for no reason, etc.

There's never any reason to use it instead of edge dragging or the clipper on brushes (trisoup terrain can even be easily done with edge dragging).

[primaltheory]

what is edge dragging? i've never seen anything about it!

[pjw]

Select a brush, hit "E" (not "V"), drag edges. It's much more stable than vert dragging for brushes.

[primaltheory]

Ooooo Handy! I've never seen this! This should help alot now that I know what I'm doing (a little bit more!)

I found a jumppad tutorial, but it's in polish (again! >:[ )

You helped me alot with the teleporter...jumppad? (I feel so lame for asking but all I can find are doom 3 tuts (that don't work) and polish ones :-(

[pjw]

Open one of the .maps that came with the game and see how it's done. (Extract from pk4 using winzip or whatever.)

[Kev_Boy]

Is there a way to select multiple edges or vertices?
I can't seem to draw some sort of marquee box to select multiple.

[Fjoggs]

In GtkRadiant 1.5, you can shift-drag or shift-select on the edges to select more then one.

[Geit]

Yea I more or less fixed my problem. Vertex manipulation is tricky sometimes but i'm getting used to it.. (I use it alot on my meshes but not my brushes)

CSG substract is evil, I never ever use it. You can do anything you want with the clipper tool or just by dragging edges. Be careful when draggig vertices (on brushes) though, that tool is buggy as hell and 'breaks' brushes like there's no tomorrow. In the end you can do anything you could do with vertex dragging by using the clipping tool, only cleaner. It just needs a bit of experience.

[SonicClang]

he's talking about the thing beginners use to cut holes in walls

I didn't know anyone would be so lazy to use the CSG tool to creat holes in walls for doors. That's just laziness.

When I first started level editing for Quake 1, I was just coming off Doom level editing, and initially I used the "Hollow" command. But then I realized that with a 3D game you have to get a different mindset. The rooms didn't have to be hollow cubes anymore. That's when I started laying every brush independently.

You should never aquire bad habits.

[Foo]

There are some instances where subtract is useful. When laying odd bits of trimming along places you might have 2 sections that come together and would require skewing both pieces to line them up properly.

in that situation, you select both pieces, do region set selected subtract one from the other and delete the excess.

example:




The center piece of trim here was a longer piece layed between the 2 vertical strips, then had both sides subtracted.

After which the whole thing was caulked and retextured.

[Survivor]

CSG is useful but not for cutting doors and such. As foo says it is very handy for cutting intersecting brushes. I also use it for deleting large pieces of maps that were only tests anyway.

[SonicClang]

I also use it for deleting large pieces of maps that were only tests anyway.

Wouldn't selecting that area and hitting backspace be a better option for that?

[Foo]

CSG is useful but not for cutting doors and such. As foo says it is very handy for cutting intersecting brushes. I also use it for deleting large pieces of maps that were only tests anyway.

For that you can also draw out a big block Selection Select Partial or Complete tall

Will select the whole area of stuff for deleting.

[Survivor]

Why bother if it just deletes it with one press of the CSG button . It's just one click and if you're pretty clean in mapping to begin with no leftovers will remain

[Geit]

Using the CSG tool is like slicing your bread with a chainsaw, there's no reason to use it, ever. Huray for the clipping tool!

[corsair]

I'm proud *cough* to anounce that I do use the csg tool (rarely though) - one should just know what the outcome of using it will be, before using it at all.

Its particulary useful when you're working on a temporaral caulk hull to serve as room/space dimension referense. However, it is messy, and it the brushes that come out of it, are gonna have to be deleted, cause they're as inefficient as can be :O

[StormShadow]

I use csg subtract on occasion as well. The trick is to look at the console, to make sure that you havent cut into any brushes that you didnt mean to, and that you didnt create more fragments then you expected. Normally I will only subtract a section out of one brush at a time, and only end up with 1 or 2 fragments.

But yes, there are better and more efficient ways of doing things, and you never ever *need* to use csg_subtract.

[obsidian]

I don't think I've ever used csg_subtract after I struggled with its bad juju back when I was mapping for the original Half-Life.

Clipper and edge, even vertex manipulation is so much better. Even with Foo's example above, I feel so much more comfortable using the clipper/edge to create something like that. Takes me only a few seconds.