Q3 Forgotten Beta

[Hellfog]

Hi everyone,

I haven’t posted here in ages. Like four or five years. I use to post under the nick Slater, but it seems to be gone. Anyway, I have finished up a map I started in late 2000 for Quake3, this is why it is called Forgotten. I think its my best map to date, but compared to the excellence I see in here I am humbled.

I just wanted to see if anyone saw any glaring issues with it. I have played it with bots quite a bit, and I’m itching to move on to something new with custom textures. Would love to get into Quake4 mapping when I get a faster computer.

Anyway, there are also two Statues in this map in the main yard where the Quad is, you can see them in the first screenshot. I’m not sure who created these as I downloaded them several years ago. If anyone knows who I should credit please let me know.

Oh, my file name seems a bit long. Is there a standard convention you guys usually use for file names.

Here are some screenshots.

Download Forgotten Beta





Download Forgotten Beta

[Anwulf]

Hi Slater/Hellfog. I remember you from way back when. I'll grab the level when I get home (provided I can dl it from my present geographical location). Looks pretty good.

[Scourge]

At a first glance, you need some major clipping up top. I was able to rocket jump on top of quite a few areas that I don't think were intentional to reach. Mostly at each end.

[lvlshot]http://www.jwivie.com/forgotten1.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://www.jwivie.com/forgotten2.jpg[/lvlshot]

[Hellfog]

Hi Anwulf, I have noticed a few familiar names.

Scourge, thanks for checking it out, the back part is definitely supposed to be clipped, I didn’t notice that and will fix it. The front was left on purpose, but maybe I should clip it. I was debating it because I wanted people to still be able to rocket jump over the beams and pillars and not hit an invisible wall. Not sure what to do in that case. Looks bad if you stay up there, but an invisible wall may be annoying also. Hmmm.

Thanks again for the feedback.

[obsidian]

Models by AlphaWolf.

You probably downloaded them from here:
http://fps.brainerd.net/mapmodels3.htm

I like those lights in the last two screenshots, BTW.

[Hellfog]

Cool thanks Obsidian. I actually googled everywhere for the files and found them because I was missing the textures and shaders when I first reloaded up this map, because all I had was the model. I found the file names and downloaded them one at a time from some directory listing, but I could not find the creator. Great to know.

Thanks for the comment on the lights. I have not clipped the tops of them though and I'm wondering if they should be now. I'm noticing how much people rocket jump around to see where they can go.

[Oeloe]

Perhaps the map looks a bit too 'sunny' for those flaming sword statues.

[Anwulf]

Let's start with my old favourite - lighting. These days I don't generally have much problem with lighting in maps, but I thought the shadows were underlit. I'm not seeing anything nearly as bright as what you have in your screenies (or Scourge 34's) unless I raise the r_gamma setting. You might want to think about a custom skybox, say something by sock or Kell.

I think the item load and placement needs further thought. For a map of this size, I think there are too many power ups. For example, I don't think you need both the regen and the MH in the map. The MH and RA at opposite ends of the same walkway with the RG not far away doesn't seem to be a good combination. Or the PG with cells not far away on eiother side of it.

You could team some of the power ups, but I'd want them to be kept away from each other as much as possible. It's not beyond the realms of possibility to get the haste, regen and quad (not to mention the MH and RA) all at one go.

I thought the walls above the bottom of the steps on either side of the quad area were a bit low. If you jump down them, there's a good chance you'll catch you head. While we're in that area, a couple of JPs taking you up to the walkway around the back of the area might be an idea.

A lot of the botplay seemed to centre on the crossing between the RA and MH. I found that that seemed to be the best place in the map to prowl. I'd reduce the number of bots. Three would be good, but this also feels like a tourney map.

As for the layout, I think the problem here is that it's like a corridor map - all walkways and no rooms. OK, that's not quite true, but you're always keeping half an eye on the surrounding pit.

[Hellfog]

Thanks for all the feedback Anwulf. For skyboxes where would I find these? Also I have noticed a lot of people have switched to static skybox's. I notice seams when I run these maps, is this normal?

I noticed it was a bit dark in a few area's especially the drop to the plasma gun. I personally think the weakest part of the map is the back room, it doesn't quite fit, but I'm not big on jump pads for this level. I mean I love jump pads, but from the start I wanted the map to be mostly stairs and hallways with a courtyard, its actually bigger than I originally planned. I personally have a thing for large rooms where you can run around the edge and shoot people inside, but still have a good chance of being pinged off yourself.

I'll try some rejigging of the items. The Quad spawns slower than the Haste and Regen, maybe I should offset them some more.

Where you hit your head, is that the steps going downstairs from the open quad area? That might be hard to fix at this point.

Also, I've never quite understood what made a Tourney map vs a regular map?

Thanks again for the feedback, I'll definitely play around with some of the ideas. Its hard to stay focused without wanting to move on to a new map. I also feed like a bit of a noob being out of it for so long.

[Anwulf]

Thanks for all the feedback Anwulf. For skyboxes where would I find these? Also I have noticed a lot of people have switched to static skybox's. I notice seams when I run these maps, is this normal?

I don't think anybody bothers much with the id skies any longer. Static boxes have been popular for some time. There ought to be a link to Sock's simland site in one of the sticky threads. Not sure where Kell's skyboxes are available.

The seams are a bug you get with ATi cards, but not nVidia. Actually, ATi cards render the skybox "correctly". q3map2 has a skybox fix switch. Personally, the seams don't bother me.

Where you hit your head, is that the steps going downstairs from the open quad area? That might be hard to fix at this point.

That's where I meant. I suspected there wasn't going to be any room to adjust the height of the ceiling.

Also, I've never quite understood what made a Tourney map vs a regular map?

I think of it as a matter of scale. Your map isn't so big that you'd spend most of your time looking for your opponent in 1-v-1. I prefer ffa myself.

[Foo]

This map is very old-school. Which I quite like

Definitely an FFA map right now and not a 1v1. Symmetry is generally bad for 1v1 although there are occasional exceptions (tourney4 & 2).

This area looked like it could be a nice teleporter location to speed the map up a little more:


This might be a suitable exit point?


Other ideas I had would be to add a third level to the map, some of the center area would facilitate another tier quite nicely if there were a couple of staircases buried in the central area somewhere.

Liked the sword models, they look great.

[surgeon62]

I'd reduce the number of bots. Three would be good, but this also feels like a tourney map.

If you keep this map FFA, I would agree with Anwulf that you should reduce the number of bots. With the default number of bots it is more of a frag-fest. It kind of kills your ability to use strategy.

I also played it as tourney vs 1 bot. I liked it, but I see Foo's point about the symmetry.

I would also agree on lowering the number of powerups. I think too many powerups also affect your ability to use a broad range of strategies.

I typically hate the old school textures, but for some reason they seem to work well in this map. I will check back for your next version. Keep up the good work.

[Todtsteltzer]

I haven't downloaded the map yet, but if you want to add a custom skybox/environment map the Wadfather is a good place to start your search. You'll find sock's and kell's skies there, too.

[SonicClang]

That's some good looking work. I'll have to download this tonight and take a look at it. Don't be too humbled man... that's some really good work you've got in there.

[primaltheory]

yeah, that looks really good

[Hellfog]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys, really motivates me to make it a little better. Now I’m also really itching to try some of the Q4 maps on here. Time to get a new computer, problem is I kind of want a Mac, and now it seems that id does not do its own Mac ports anymore. Hopefully the new Mac Intel machines can dual boot. :icon25:

[AEon]

Sorry did not read all the above posts...

First off... Surprisingly fun map (meaning I have not played a map that worked for me so quickly in quite some time). The map could actually have been an released with Q3A, a id map classic like q3dm7 for me ...

Just a few things I noted:

• There are quite a few really fun areas to run about, especially the ledges, trouble is the bots stick to the central part of the map, almost camping around the MH and RA. Some more though should be put into how to motivate folks to use the ledges more.
• Personally I thought the map had way to many powerups. I'd drop the Regen, and Haste, but keep the Quad and RA and MH.
• IMO it's not a good idea to place the MH and the RA in close proximity, this is especially bad because the LG and RG are in that area as well.
• I am sure Todtstelzer would have some good item placement suggestions.
• In the central area (where the large petagram is on the floor, I think the Quad respawns there), IMO there should be a way up to the ledge (walkway) where you placed at least one GL. A Jumppad or two in the map would be a good thing IMO.
• From the Quad area to the other side of the map (where the RG is IIRC) a teleporter connect might be an interesting option to add a gameflow loop, and avoid the RG area being a dead end.
• With 6 Bots on Hardcore it was fun.

I am really looking forward to the next beta!

[Hellfog]

Hi Aeon,

Thanks for the great feedback. Knowing people actually like it makes me want to improve it. I am big on powerups, but a lot of posts have been about removing some of them, so I will. I want the map to be fun for everyone, not just me.

Anyway, I tried using Kell's skyboxes and played around with shader light settings for a long time. It looks okay on my computer but the screenshots are really red. I may just go back to the default id sky map because I like the lighting it gives off.

I have implemented some of the suggestions so far. The main one being Foo’s and Aeon’s suggestion of a teleporter. You can see it in the first screenshot. I have used evillair’s teleporter model. I’m not really good with shader’s yet and I’m wondering if there is a way to make the light on a model the light of the map, or is lighting done within the model itself?

I’ve also moved some items around and done some cosmetic work on the halls on the lower level. Not sure if they are working though, you can see them in the shots below.

A few people have mentioned jump pads and I wanted this level to be jump pad free, but Aeon is right about the ledge, it is fun to be up there but hard to get up there. The teleporter actually teleports you to the ledge in the open area, but unless you pull back you fall into the lower area.

I’ve also fixed up part of what scourge34 posted. You can still rocket jump to the top because I didn’t want to have people hit an invisible wall, but the sky is further out now and you only see brick wall.

Anyway, I will try to get some more updates soon, I’ve been playing around with textures lately and posting on evillairs new forum eCentral.

Here are the new shots.

[Scourge]

You have an ATI card don't you? You can tell on the last screenie you posted. Just thought I'd point that out. Carry on! Btw, I do like the map and will check back for improvements.

[Hellfog]

Yes I do. I checked if there was a way to get rid of the seams, but I guess there isn't.

[Foo]

The problem you see there is down to ATI cards implementing the GL texture clamp functions correctly and nVidia not doing so (from what I've read).

There may be an option to set non-conformant clamp options in your ATI control panel. Whether it's worth doing so since it could affect other games is another question

[Scourge]

I just ignored it when I was running an ATI card. There's supposedly some way to fix it but I don't know what it was. Sorry to derail.

[Oeloe]

Yes I do. I checked if there was a way to get rid of the seams, but I guess there isn't.

There certainly is. I believe q3map2 has a parameter called -skyfix, but that's not enough. You need to put some extra pixels on the skybox textures so the black lines get 'covered'. I've seen a tutorial for that somewhere; perhaps it's in the sticky topic.

(skyfix, not atifix)

[Lukin]

Try q3map2 -skyfix and tutorial by Speedy.
It won't solve the problem perfectly though. The best way to rook out those lines is to create a sphere in third party 3d software, add a shader with moving clouds on it and insert the sphere to the map as a skyportal. Rgoer made a detailed tutorial about this, but unfortunately it disapperead with one of q3w forum crashes.

[AEon]

Hellfog,
Anyway, I tried using Kell's skyboxes and played around with shader light settings for a long time. It looks okay on my computer but the screenshots are really red. I may just go back to the default id sky map because I like the lighting it gives off.

About skyboxes... alas all the tutorials I tested, e.g. also -skyfix only lead to an overlap at the skybox edges. If the skybox actually *has* the same 2-3 pixel rows on every side things will probably work. But all the really cool skyboxes, like those by Hipshot, alas never worked properly on my ATi X800 either.

If the colors of the sky are weird, look into the skybox shader, and change the color of the sky to a more pastel color, to avoid color saturation.

A few people have mentioned jump pads and I wanted this level to be jump pad free, but Aeon is right about the ledge, it is fun to be up there but hard to get up there. The teleporter actually teleports you to the ledge in the open area, but unless you pull back you fall into the lower area.

I had been thinking of pulling back a wall where you respawn, much like in the first shot you posted. And I had thought you could possibly place a 2nd teleporter up there in the edge area. That would make a complete teleport loop. Might be interesting...

Shot 1

Looks nice. I was still thinking if the teleporter should be here (lower level) or above on the walkway on the upper level. But I think the lower level is the better choice, makes the lower level area more significant.

Shot 2

Red glow is a bit strong indeed.

Shot 4

You might like to check more skyboxes. IIRC the sticky thread in this forum, has some good links for more of them. Obviously if the sky is more or less uniformly colored, that would be kinda boring. Maybe use something with clouds or mountains that will show over the walls.

As an alternative you might want to build a few breaks in your outer walls, like windows or balconies (I'd like the balconies), to let the player look out. This should not lower FPS significantly, and would also break up the long walls in Shot 4 e.g.