I've been postponing this message for 2 days now, hoping it would go away. Like a bad dream or the flu. But the result are inevitable I'm afraid. No way to hide from the disaster that has fallen upon us. Time to adress the truth and face it's outcome.
Geocomp 4 is a big dissappointment. I did all of my homework properly. I posted everywhere to see if people were interested and they were. Geocomp 4 was announced everywhere around the web and even made the frontpage of Planetquake.
The results however are not what I expected. Only four maps are submitted. It could be that real life got in the way of those who were willing to participate or perhaps, we as a site, are not being taken seriously by the rest of the community. Take the Raven interview for instance. Announced everywhere only to get some lame replies and be embarrassed publicly on the web. I guess this is the second time we have to drop our trousers and take the abuse. With this, I'm not amused. Mainly because I like women and I don't like to be made a fool.
So who's fault is this? Did we not push this project enough? Did we not pimp it enough? Maybe. But I know for sure it wasn't the four guys that submitted a map. Thank you, Donkey, Stjartmunnen, Remment and A-Spec for your time and effort. I also wouldn't dare to accuse those who said they would enter but did not. Perhaps, it was us. Or maybe Quake 3 mapping isn't what it's used to be.
Well I'm a man of my word. I will take on this dissappointment with pride and carry on with doing what I promised. All four maps can be zipped up in a mappack and released to the public. We can also vote on the best gameplay, design, etc. Or if people do want to submit but need some extra time, well then we can postpone it. Either way, it's up to you. So let me know what you guys want and it will be done. To close this post, I want to yet again give a big thumb up for those who supported the contest.
For now, I'm signing off.
Your deeply dissappointed admin [edited...cough]of leveldesign.nl[/cough],
Inf
Geocomp 4
Sorry Geocomp 4 didn't go so well, but these things are unpredictable... as are all things on the Internet.
Just realized what time of year it is...
-Time to file taxes
-Time for people in uni/college to start cramming for exams, assignments
So I think more than anything, this time of year is when life gets in the way of what people would rather be doing. Don't take it too hard.
Just realized what time of year it is...
-Time to file taxes
-Time for people in uni/college to start cramming for exams, assignments
So I think more than anything, this time of year is when life gets in the way of what people would rather be doing. Don't take it too hard.
[size=85][url=http://gtkradiant.com]GtkRadiant[/url] | [url=http://q3map2.robotrenegade.com]Q3Map2[/url] | [url=http://q3map2.robotrenegade.com/docs/shader_manual/]Shader Manual[/url][/size]
Re: Geocomp 4
I'll leave the issue of not entering my own map with the following 2 statements:Infernis wrote:So who's fault is this? Did we not push this project enough? Did we not pimp it enough? Maybe. But I know for sure it wasn't the four guys that submitted a map. Thank you, Donkey, Stjartmunnen, Remment and A-Spec for your time and effort. I also wouldn't dare to accuse those who said they would enter but did not. Perhaps, it was us. Or maybe Quake 3 mapping isn't what it's used to be.
1. I've not entered a competition such as this before, and I've learned that I'm very weak at keeping to a deadline, especially when I'm multitasking with several different projects at once
2. University deadlines and other personal items got in the way of completing the level I was working on for the competition. In truth, I think the error lies with myself for stating I would enter in the first place - I had reservations about my time comittments even 2 months ago.
Regarding the competition itself, I think it fell foul of a much wider issue, so I wouldn't hasten in your dissapointment. The community for Quake 3 has shrunk hugely since the previous geocomps. Moreover, the community for level design within it has even shrunk proportionally a little more.
On a wider scale, PC gaming and hence PC game editing continues to fragment with every new game that hits the shelves. What's more, every new website that springs up dilutes the online resources for the games as well. Hence as time marches on, the once large, focused communities we're all reminiscing over will only continue to get thinner.
New, popular games that spring up will often spawn communities for a short time that remain large and focused, but without moving regularly it's hard to remain within that kind of culture. As you must have found with lvldesign.nl, even concentrating the site and gathering together dying forums, multiple games and so on has improved the situation but not a great deal - traffic and content is still hard to come by.
Q3's community had a very good innings and a unique strength - thanks in part to the anomoly that was Q3W forums. Games developers now tend to strongly favour creating their own forums on their own hosted space, rather than contracting out as they did with this place.
So what to do? Hard to say. There's a general trait of PC game communities whereby as it gets smaller over time, a residue of hardcore enthusiasts always remain. There's still a small community for Q1, 2, 3, the original UT, and so on.
When the community reaches that point of being only a few dedicated players remaining then perhaps switching tactics may be the best way to get the most of the situation. For example, instead of an opt-in competition, how about establishing a mapping 'team' working in close collaboration to continue to churn out maps? Since the rush of having a lot of people play a level you create is diminished with the smaller crowd, perhaps that can be offset with the benefits of working in a tight group to create something beyond an individual's means.
I dunno, just one idea. The whole issue of this community and others like it getting thinner on the ground every day is one that's affecting all of us, but it's fairly inevitable.
-
Silicone_Milk
- Posts: 2237
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:49 pm
Well.... I've been mapping on and off but I've never released anything to the Q3 community. I've also worked with SkinNCNMaster on a map called Pondlife but Im not sure if he ever released it (I wonder what happened to him btw....)
Anyways, I would have loved to enter but for me I was extremely intimidated by the other mappers entering so I decided to stay out. Not to mention, I've been working hard on a mod that's consumed a lot of my free time.
I do agree with Foo about how the communities have been shrinking and it saddens me greatly to see my favorite mappers/coders slowly disappearing.
Anyways, I would have loved to enter but for me I was extremely intimidated by the other mappers entering so I decided to stay out. Not to mention, I've been working hard on a mod that's consumed a lot of my free time.
I do agree with Foo about how the communities have been shrinking and it saddens me greatly to see my favorite mappers/coders slowly disappearing.
That's the whole reason why I started Lvldesign.nl. My favorite sites started to dissappear. I've been following mapping for years without picking it up myself. I just loved wachting what other people made. But when I decided I would give it a go myself, the community begun to 'thin out'. Take Mapcenter for instance, it's only a fragment of what it used to be.
Seeing a lot of online familiars vanish in thin air. People like Shallow, PJW or Hreaper. Not they would consider me a close friend or vice versa. But still we bumped into eachother in different threads and it was always nice to talk to those people. That's why I hoped starting lvldesign.nl would bring them all back together. I guess it's in people their nature to hang on to what's familiar to them.
But we as a site have a hard time surviving amongst the others. We basically live in Doom3world it's shadow. Feeding on the crums they live behind. That what's left of Quake 3 tend to stick around here. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But to realise Foo his idea, you'll need to unite what's left of active mappers. That's an impossible thing to do if everything is fragmented like it is now.
This contest, like so many other ideas of mine to attract people, just failed. Same as the Raven interview, the dedicated Quake4 server, the collaborarion with quake4euro and so on.
But to stop my rambling. I would be willing to form a team of active Quake3 mappers, pimp there stuff, host there maps, arrange a dedicated server to play on, etc. If there is interest.
Seeing a lot of online familiars vanish in thin air. People like Shallow, PJW or Hreaper. Not they would consider me a close friend or vice versa. But still we bumped into eachother in different threads and it was always nice to talk to those people. That's why I hoped starting lvldesign.nl would bring them all back together. I guess it's in people their nature to hang on to what's familiar to them.
But we as a site have a hard time surviving amongst the others. We basically live in Doom3world it's shadow. Feeding on the crums they live behind. That what's left of Quake 3 tend to stick around here. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But to realise Foo his idea, you'll need to unite what's left of active mappers. That's an impossible thing to do if everything is fragmented like it is now.
This contest, like so many other ideas of mine to attract people, just failed. Same as the Raven interview, the dedicated Quake4 server, the collaborarion with quake4euro and so on.
But to stop my rambling. I would be willing to form a team of active Quake3 mappers, pimp there stuff, host there maps, arrange a dedicated server to play on, etc. If there is interest.
Inf - Leaving in it's torturous wake nothing but vicious, cannabalistic, mutated, radiated and horribly disfigured hordes of satanic killers!
I think that's it exactly. When people start visiting mapping forums (like mapcenter, levelsource, etc.), it's likely that they are not planning to look for another forum to replace their old favorite forum. Although your efforts to unite the mapping scene with a new site are admirable, you could have known your chances were very slim. Q3 and Q4 mappers advertise their maps at sites like q3w, ESR, challengeworld (cpma forums), q4max, doom3world and a few others. Some people cross-post in these forums, but apart from that it's pretty much totally fragmented.Infernis wrote:I guess it's in people their nature to hang on to what's familiar to them.
Hoping to unite these people would be like hoping to unite all Q3 players playing different mods to play one single mod. It's not going to happen. People will just keep doing what the're at, untill they've lost all interest or opportunity to participate in the community.
And I wouldn't say all that many people are leaving/disappearing. They've just moved onto different things. I'd just say that they are more dispersed.
A lot of them have moved on to the D3 engine, working on new stuff (plus lots of new modders are being pulled into the fray). Others have been "promoted" to professional mappers, like pjw for example - who is now working at Raven.
A lot of them have moved on to the D3 engine, working on new stuff (plus lots of new modders are being pulled into the fray). Others have been "promoted" to professional mappers, like pjw for example - who is now working at Raven.
[size=85][url=http://gtkradiant.com]GtkRadiant[/url] | [url=http://q3map2.robotrenegade.com]Q3Map2[/url] | [url=http://q3map2.robotrenegade.com/docs/shader_manual/]Shader Manual[/url][/size]
Ofcourse I knew, but if you don't try, you'll never know for sure. It's not really wanting everyone to be with us, more of a hope we will run in to eachother again. Especially with map releases, one would be stupid if only posting it on a single forum. Multiple forums are a good thing. But every plus has it's negatives. But the fact that we are relatively knew does hurt us, I'm sure of that. But what's a fight without a struggle?Oeloe wrote:I think that's it exactly. When people start visiting mapping forums (like mapcenter, levelsource, etc.), it's likely that they are not planning to look for another forum to replace their old favorite forum. Although your efforts to unite the mapping scene with a new site are admirable, you could have known your chances were very slim. Q3 and Q4 mappers advertise their maps at sites like q3w, ESR, challengeworld (cpma forums), q4max, doom3world and a few others. Some people cross-post in these forums, but apart from that it's pretty much totally fragmented.
We will continue to try new things and I'm sure in the end, the effort will be rewarded. My father always said, if you persist, you'll eventually win. Not there is a contest between sites of any kind. But I'm derailing.
Let's look at the bright side of things. This contest does give us atleast 2 wonderfull new maps who wouldn't have seen the light of day without this contest. Plus, you guys have something new to play. That's worth something now isn't it?
Inf - Leaving in it's torturous wake nothing but vicious, cannabalistic, mutated, radiated and horribly disfigured hordes of satanic killers!
Heh. I'm still around, but I'm not remotely as active in the community as I used to be...hell, I'm a mod in this forum, and I feel like it's my obligation to show up and read stuff, but the current Q4 project that I was working on has stalled (there was a physics change in the patch that killed a spectacular trick jump and kinda dulled my enthusiasm). I get most of my mapping fix at work now, and it's spring, and I'm buying a new house, and Oblivion is out now, and....blahblahblahFjoggs wrote:Yeah, pjw is such a dick for leaving us!
I dunno...I used to post like crazy, and I rarely post anymore here, let alone anywhere else. I almost feel kind of guilty for not feeling guilty about it, if you know what I mean.
Infernis, I'm really sorry about the comp. I never said I would enter, because I just didn't have the oomph at the time, but I never thought that you would only get four entries. As far as the interview goes, I wasn't involved at all, but I'm sorry about that too, for what it's worth.
The fact of the matter is that you're dealing with a very small community so you can't expect to have big results. There simply aren't a lot of Q3 mappers active today so you can't expect a big turnout for a Q3 mapping competition.
Of course, this isn't the entire story, but it is most of it. Regarding leveldesign.nl itself, to me it doesn't really fit any niche and therefore I don't go to it. For Q3 editing stuff I go to Q3W LEM. For Q4 editing stuff I go to D3W. For gameplay testing of maps I go to ESR. There isn't really any reason for me to go to leveldesign.nl. It is kind of the same reason I never really regularly went to MapCenter or that other one (levelworld? I don't even remember what it was called).
Also, every time I've been on the website I've wanted to get out as soon as possible for some unexlainable reason. Maybe something to do with the cluttered look of it, I dunno. I also have an irrational fear of websites with country TLDs so leveldesign.NL scares me more than leveldesign.com would. Yes, I know that is silly but it is true for me.
Of course, this isn't the entire story, but it is most of it. Regarding leveldesign.nl itself, to me it doesn't really fit any niche and therefore I don't go to it. For Q3 editing stuff I go to Q3W LEM. For Q4 editing stuff I go to D3W. For gameplay testing of maps I go to ESR. There isn't really any reason for me to go to leveldesign.nl. It is kind of the same reason I never really regularly went to MapCenter or that other one (levelworld? I don't even remember what it was called).
Also, every time I've been on the website I've wanted to get out as soon as possible for some unexlainable reason. Maybe something to do with the cluttered look of it, I dunno. I also have an irrational fear of websites with country TLDs so leveldesign.NL scares me more than leveldesign.com would. Yes, I know that is silly but it is true for me.
[url=http://www.goodstuffmaynard.com]Good Stuff, Maynard![/url]
The biggest movement of map making for Q3A lately, has been going on over at ..::LvL in it's beta section, which is in my opinion the best choice anyways, since their map will then become a part of the best site for d/l for those who still play. I wish some of them would present them here for testing though, since all questions would get correct answers for them.
What I've been picking up lately on mappers, is that alot of them feel like their going to be criticized, because they aren't mapping for Q4 like alot of the rest of mappers. So we've been getting alot of new mappers that have no idea how to make a good map. Not a bad thing though, considering if they stick with it they'll get better.
Q3 isn't dead...no worries.
I'd say this competition was probably a little too much for alot of those that are still learning mapping. I have an idea though for what could be done that would probably get better results then this.
Name a good theme of style for them to go by. Hell, or story style maps of Hunter and Sorlag (sorg), Q4 maps remade to Q3, etc..
There is so much storyline that has been left out for alot of the charachters of Q3. We know about Doom, and the Strogg(TankJr), and the Strogg making Orbb for the arena's, etc.. Things like that. I'm not saying to jump into that idea right now though. Give people a little time to Q4 map, and alot will come back and make a map for Q3A every once in a while. Doom3 had this affect on Q3A also. Just give it a little time. =)
What I've been picking up lately on mappers, is that alot of them feel like their going to be criticized, because they aren't mapping for Q4 like alot of the rest of mappers. So we've been getting alot of new mappers that have no idea how to make a good map. Not a bad thing though, considering if they stick with it they'll get better.
Q3 isn't dead...no worries.
I'd say this competition was probably a little too much for alot of those that are still learning mapping. I have an idea though for what could be done that would probably get better results then this.
Name a good theme of style for them to go by. Hell, or story style maps of Hunter and Sorlag (sorg), Q4 maps remade to Q3, etc..
There is so much storyline that has been left out for alot of the charachters of Q3. We know about Doom, and the Strogg(TankJr), and the Strogg making Orbb for the arena's, etc.. Things like that. I'm not saying to jump into that idea right now though. Give people a little time to Q4 map, and alot will come back and make a map for Q3A every once in a while. Doom3 had this affect on Q3A also. Just give it a little time. =)
Yeah, I don't think we need another forum for level designers. However it would be nice to see a site dedicated to level designing similar to sites dedicated to pro-gaming (like GotFrag or GGL).wviperw wrote:Of course, this isn't the entire story, but it is most of it. Regarding leveldesign.nl itself, to me it doesn't really fit any niche and therefore I don't go to it.
Such site could serve information from a few games' mapping scenes, could contain not only forums, but (primarily) articles: no tutorials or a technical stuff, but something like a "map of the month", map makers profiles, "behind the stage", interviews, maybe hardware tests, maybe some tourneys on custom levels - I think it would be attractive for casual people as well as for the mappers, it would bring closer the mappers to the gamers and vice versa.
[size=75][url=http://www.lukinonline.com]lukinonline.com[/url][/size]
Sorry! Infernis!
I said that I was in.
But a few months ago I saw a killer chick and my brain fell into a loop sort of and could not concentrate as usual.
I said that I was in.
But a few months ago I saw a killer chick and my brain fell into a loop sort of and could not concentrate as usual.
[color=#FF00BF]I pwn police! - Biff[/color]
[color=#666666]When I went to a zoo, I found myself in another zoo, too. - a13n[/color]
[color=#999999]Homeless is a living proof that[/color] [color=#FF00BF]Benjamin Franklin's quote "There're two things certain, tax and death" is wrong[/color] [color=#999999]and GOD had wanted[/color] [color=#FF00BF]him to be an evil liar, that is, SATAN[/color][color=#999999]. - a13n[/color]
[color=#666666]There are too many GODs in this werld for [/color][color=#FF00BF]the ONE&ONLY[/color][color=#666666] to be valid. - a13n[/color]
[color=#666666]Nothing ventured, the rest of everything just given. - a13n[/color]
[color=#FF00BF]I need a soldier! - Sarge[/color]
[color=#666666]When I went to a zoo, I found myself in another zoo, too. - a13n[/color]
[color=#999999]Homeless is a living proof that[/color] [color=#FF00BF]Benjamin Franklin's quote "There're two things certain, tax and death" is wrong[/color] [color=#999999]and GOD had wanted[/color] [color=#FF00BF]him to be an evil liar, that is, SATAN[/color][color=#999999]. - a13n[/color]
[color=#666666]There are too many GODs in this werld for [/color][color=#FF00BF]the ONE&ONLY[/color][color=#666666] to be valid. - a13n[/color]
[color=#666666]Nothing ventured, the rest of everything just given. - a13n[/color]
[color=#FF00BF]I need a soldier! - Sarge[/color]
Deal, we'll wait!Foo wrote:Week max. I can firmly commit to having it to you by next monday at the very latest.
Don't worry PJW, thanks for the email and trying to sort it out for us. You have been nothing but helpfull.PJW wrote:Infernis, I'm really sorry about the comp. I never said I would enter, because I just didn't have the oomph at the time, but I never thought that you would only get four entries. As far as the interview goes, I wasn't involved at all, but I'm sorry about that too, for what it's worth.
Yes and no. We first posted everywhere if there was enough interest. We got loads of replies which made us launch the contest. So we could expect big results. Atleast better then now. The fact that almost none actually submitted is a different story. Again, I don't blame anyone for not submitting! So I have to disagree with you on this point.wviperw wrote:The fact of the matter is that you're dealing with a very small community so you can't expect to have big results. There simply aren't a lot of Q3 mappers active today so you can't expect a big turnout for a Q3 mapping competition.
I think this is the case for a lot of people.wviperw wrote:Of course, this isn't the entire story, but it is most of it. Regarding leveldesign.nl itself, to me it doesn't really fit any niche and therefore I don't go to it. For Q3 editing stuff I go to Q3W LEM. For Q4 editing stuff I go to D3W. For gameplay testing of maps I go to ESR. There isn't really any reason for me to go to leveldesign.nl. It is kind of the same reason I never really regularly went to MapCenter or that other one (levelworld? I don't even remember what it was called).
What's cluttered? The dictionary doesn't make it clear.wviperw wrote:Also, every time I've been on the website I've wanted to get out as soon as possible for some unexlainable reason. Maybe something to do with the cluttered look of it, I dunno. I also have an irrational fear of websites with country TLDs so leveldesign.NL scares me more than leveldesign.com would. Yes, I know that is silly but it is true for me.
Were building a new site as we speak. It will contain interviews with Mod teams. Interviews with pro leveldesigners and how they got into the business. Mod team support, weekly reviews, downloads, tutorials and the forum part. I hope this will change things. But your idea is similiar to the direction we want to go.Lukin wrote:Yeah, I don't think we need another forum for level designers. However it would be nice to see a site dedicated to level designing similar to sites dedicated to pro-gaming (like GotFrag or GGL). Such site could serve information from a few games' mapping scenes, could contain not only forums, but (primarily) articles: no tutorials or a technical stuff, but something like a "map of the month", map makers profiles, "behind the stage", interviews, maybe hardware tests, maybe some tourneys on custom levels - I think it would be attractive for casual people as well as for the mappers, it would bring closer the mappers to the gamers and vice versa.
Regarding Oblivion, great game but it was out after the competition finished
Inf - Leaving in it's torturous wake nothing but vicious, cannabalistic, mutated, radiated and horribly disfigured hordes of satanic killers!
But LvL doesn't even have a forum, just comments. You can't post screenshots there, for instance. I do like LvL, but it's mostly a review site and not really a development site.v1l3 wrote:The biggest movement of map making for Q3A lately, has been going on over at ..::LvL in it's beta section, which is in my opinion the best choice anyways, since their map will then become a part of the best site for d/l for those who still play. I wish some of them would present them here for testing though, since all questions would get correct answers for them.
What wvip means is that the layout of the site is a little bit tacky. It's like... one of those big gaming site with all the stuff all over the place that does nothing and annoying adverts. I don't really have any problem with it, I'm just saying that's what it might mean. And it really doesn't have any adverts, but at first glance it sort of gives you that impression.
[img]http://myspace-001.vo.llnwd.net/00555/10/05/555355001_l.gif[/img]