Bill Maher - Religulous

[xer0s]

Directed by Larry Charles. Doesn't he do Curb Your Enthusiasm? I love that show...

[Big Kahuna Burger]

that's Larry David

[GONNAFISTYA]

It's sad. Turing showed up in this thread railing against people's posts and he hadn't even seen the trailer...let alone the movie.

Whatsamatter Turing? Frustrated? Looking for targets to bitch at? Just wanting to pick fights? Problems at home? The wife not working the shaft?



I always thought Turing was retard...long before I knew he existed. I actually managed to read some of his posts, which confirmed my suspicions pretty hard.

[R00k]

If you can find me a single spot in the Bible that explicitly suggests that one should lie in order to convert people, I will more than happily concede your point. If you can't, then it's sorta dumb.

Lying? They are only stating the facts as they see them - because when it comes to faith, you can believe whatever you want to, as long as enough other people believe it too.

Again; I don't think that hatred and imposing your beliefs on others is correct. That's why I'm against people trying to tear down religious beliefs, actually; I think that trying to impose why your beliefs are 'correct' and those of other people are stupid is the entire flaw in this system. I don't think that shouting at homosexuals makes any more sense that shouting at religious people. I also don't think that shouting at homosexuals fits in with their holy book.

Okay, so you don't think that shouting at homosexuals fits in with their holy book. But you are also refusing to admit that the book makes it just as easy to justify shouting at homosexuals as it does to dissuade it. Probably even more.

I think that it should be pointed out that their God specifically told them not to be judgmental and that it's not their place to act like complete fuckwits. I think that's a much more rational and useful argument than "Religin sux and dont maek no sinse lulz," which seems to be the keystone of Maher's argument.

Good Zeus, what world do you live in?

Two points here:
1) (a rhetorical question): Do you really think that telling these goons they aren't supposed to be judgmental, and that acting like complete fuckwits isn't their place, is actually going to effect some kind of change?

2): So now your approach is that you know their religion better than they do. Your argument has come full-circle, and you are doing what you have accused others of doing - calling them stupid and acting like you're better than they are, as well as pushing your own beliefs on them. That's not exactly a first though -- you've accused others of putting words into your mouth, and you've been doing that through the whole thread.

[GONNAFISTYA]

Dunno...while I realize the need for "rational discussion" regarding Turing I'm leaning more and more to the opinion that Turings of all kind should be ridiculed, smashed, torn down, whatever...because he doesn't want to have a rational discussion...because it isn't in his nature to view movies he hasn't seen yet in a rational way.

Yes...it would be nice to have a "good chat"...but I'm pretty sure it'll never happen. Fuck him.

I've pretty much given up discussing anything with Turing...and it's the same with other retards....especially when we're in the 21st century...not the 9th. I guess mental fatigue and the urge to drop a 10 ton weight on his head doesn't bode well for "rational discussion" when the rational part of the discussion is completely ignored by irrational people like Turing.

In other words...while a truthful, deep conversation is needed...I'd rather just point and laugh at Turing who is beyond help.

Scratch that....I'd rather drive over him with a truck full of penguins.

[xer0s]

that's Larry David

Wrong. Larry David writes and stars in Curb. He doesn't direct. Larry Charles does...

[xer0s]

Is Turing really Ultron?

[scared?]

dunno...but he is really stoopid...

[bikkeldesnikkel]

That's quite a statement, the amount of misinformation provided by expelled is enormous, where do you think the misinformation on that scale is going to come from in this movie?

By looking at recent history at all? Moore and Stein and anyone else who has been in the mood to make a movie like this has always presented as many of the facts in as warped a manner as possible.

There's only been a trailer that contains some light ridicule, I haven't heard any gross misinformation yet, so why jump to conclusions.

Hm, I don't agree. Talking religious belief on these terms is too broad a perspective. Religious belief can mean practically anything. We're talking religious belief in the presence of contrary evidence and in the abscence of evidence. A well informed/reasoned belief is i.m.o. always better than a belief without evidence/reasoning to back it up.

It's always more rational, I will give you. And there are plenty of harmful irrational beliefs, though there are plenty of harmful rational beliefs. But I don't think that being reasonable is always better, to be sure. Reason can only take you so far.

Harmful rational beliefs? Examples please.

Also, how can reasoning not be what's best. Look at the definition.

Reason is a way of thinking characterized by logic, analysis, and synthesis. It is often contrasted with emotionalism, which is thinking driven by desire, passion or prejudice. Reason attempts to discover what is true or what is best. Reason often follows a chain of cause and effect, and the word "reason" can be a synynom for "cause". Reason has been a major subject of interest since the beginning of philosophy.

Although seeking out the truth is primary in reason, seeking out the best (at that time) is always the practical (reasonable) solution, what works best. How can trying to figure out what's best not be better than not caring what's best?

[Turing]

lol

Turing's "proof that he's right" is by judging an entire movie on a trailer.

And it also points out that he argued up and down the walls against something he'd never seen yet.

Yeah....rational thinking to the core.

Sorry, it -helped- to confirm my suspicions further. I'm not saying that I'm going to judge the whole thing without having seen it, I'm saying that the trailer is set up to maximize the chuckles.

Also, I'm not arguing up and down the walls about something I haven't seen. I am arguing that half of the problem with there not being a dialog about religion are people like you, who think you can be dismissive of religion entirely and still have a meaningful conversation about the topic that doesn't immediately alienate people who have faith.

[Turing]

It's sad. Turing showed up in this thread railing against people's posts and he hadn't even seen the trailer...let alone the movie.

Whatsamatter Turing? Frustrated? Looking for targets to bitch at? Just wanting to pick fights? Problems at home? The wife not working the shaft?



I always thought Turing was retard...long before I knew he existed. I actually managed to read some of his posts, which confirmed my suspicions pretty hard.

Uh... that's because I was railing against the content of your posts, rather than the movie itself? The only thing I said about it is that I expected it to be a pseudo-documentary in the vein of many such movies that have come out of late, like Expelled and Fahrenheit 9/11. There might be some truth to them (there's much more in the latter than the former, to be sure) but even the true parts are manipulated so as to entertain and to preach to the converted rather than to open up any kind of meaningful dialog.

I'm not just looking for people to bitch at. I just hate seeing small-minded idiots parrot Dawkins and think that it makes them smarter than people of faith.

Oh, and pretty please, tell me when you saw Expelled? Was it before your posts where you started shitting all over it? Do we have to see a movie to judge that it looks like a shit movie? I haven't seen Expelled, and I'm more than willing to say that it's a shitty hack piece that brings nothing to the table. I haven't said that yet about this movie, but if I see a few reviews that confirm what I already know, then I'll probably treat it the same way. I went through the same process with Stein's piece of shit, which I'll only watch if I can pirate it.

[Turing]

Lying? They are only stating the facts as they see them - because when it comes to faith, you can believe whatever you want to, as long as enough other people believe it too.

Ah, but that's the trick, you're wrong there. They are stating the facts as they -want- to see them. I am rather religious and I think that the idea of Intelligent Design is fucking retarded, as far as the capitalized, pseudo-scientific version of it. It's a manner of warping science to fit belief. Science doesn't work that way. Thus, even if they are lying to themselves as well, they are still lying.

Shoehorning a divine creator in just because there are flaws in evolutionary theory is flat out intellectual dishonesty. If they were serious about their faith and searching for the truth, then they wouldn't be attempting to mold reality, they'd be studying reality and finding out what is actually true.

Okay, so you don't think that shouting at homosexuals fits in with their holy book. But you are also refusing to admit that the book makes it just as easy to justify shouting at homosexuals as it does to dissuade it. Probably even more.

Eh, there are a few Old Testament verses about it that make it not kosher. They're right in next to the lines about shellfish. Anyone who's ignoring God's word enough to use verses like that out of context is, once again, Doing It Wrong.

Good Zeus, what world do you live in?

Two points here:
1) (a rhetorical question): Do you really think that telling these goons they aren't supposed to be judgmental, and that acting like complete fuckwits isn't their place, is actually going to effect some kind of change?

2): So now your approach is that you know their religion better than they do. Your argument has come full-circle, and you are doing what you have accused others of doing - calling them stupid and acting like you're better than they are, as well as pushing your own beliefs on them. That's not exactly a first though -- you've accused others of putting words into your mouth, and you've been doing that through the whole thread.

Not in the least. I'm not pushing my beliefs on them at all, I am simply pointing out that this is what a constructive dialog would look like. It's not about calling them stupid. It's about having a conversation regarding why pushing your beliefs on others is wrong, about putting up cultural boundaries that make certain behaviors not okay, and about helping people to believe in the way that their holy books tell them.

I think that it's also okay to tell Muslims who blow themselves up that they are Doing It Wrong, for instance. I don't feel bad about it. It's simply a fact. Their holy book doesn't tell them to act that way, and they are warping it for their own desires.

And if they didn't have religion, they'd have something else. Religion is just the easiest fallback method, because people aren't used to using religion as a positive tool. People are instead used to simply being preached at and not having a personal relationship with their faith. They are used to being followers.

Even though Christianity is about surrendering to Christ, that's all it's about surrendering to. You aren't supposed to just bow down to a religious leader and do whatever he says. Unless you're Catholic. And they've been behaving pretty well lately. :P

[Turing]

There's only been a trailer that contains some light ridicule, I haven't heard any gross misinformation yet, so why jump to conclusions.

Because it's rather familiar ridicule that seems to be in the same vein as Stein's film, taking interviews with people and cutting them up to make the best (and most entertaining!) point in your favor.

I'm okay with movies of that type to a point, but not when they contain ideas that I think are just going to cause more anger and division among extremists and retards.

Harmful rational beliefs? Examples please.

Well, they are ideas that are misuses of reason in a certain sense, but it's much like harmful religious ideas are misuses of religion. There are many logical reasons for racism: seeing people of a race who act in a stereotypical way, having negative interactions with them, and of course, the classic standby of leaning on pseudoscience.

Also, how can reasoning not be what's best. Look at the definition.

Reason is a way of thinking characterized by logic, analysis, and synthesis. It is often contrasted with emotionalism, which is thinking driven by desire, passion or prejudice. Reason attempts to discover what is true or what is best. Reason often follows a chain of cause and effect, and the word "reason" can be a synynom for "cause". Reason has been a major subject of interest since the beginning of philosophy.

Although seeking out the truth is primary in reason, seeking out the best (at that time) is always the practical (reasonable) solution, what works best. How can trying to figure out what's best not be better than not caring what's best?

Because as I pointed out above, reason can lead people astray. There is also a very human element of doubt and gut instinct that I think is important for people, from pilots and surgeons to customer service folks. People use a combination of reason and instinct to get by, and I think that trying to set reason on a pedestal as the end-all, be-all of human capacity is sort of silly. Reason is important, but I think that faith is rather important too, and I think that people denigrating it is just silly.

[GONNAFISTYA]

Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble.

Jesus christ man you don't have to respond to every post...especially the ones taking the piss out of you.

[Turing]

I like how you reply twice in a row and then add on a bunch of back-slapping posts, then you try to accuse me of posting too much in reply when I reply to only half of your bullshit.

Or are you referring to the fact that I am actually engaging your intellectual superiors in a rational manner, too? I know, four whole posts when six or seven people are addressing me, that's the oloest thing evar.

[GONNAFISTYA]

I am arguing that half of the problem with there not being a dialog about religion are people like you, who think you can be dismissive of religion entirely and still have a meaningful conversation about the topic that doesn't immediately alienate people who have faith.

Dude I've been having deep and meaningful discussions about religion since I was 10 years old when my best friend "found God" (he's now a full-fledged priest with his own church). I've heard it all and I think that after 30 years of discussing the subject I have every right to dismiss the same tired arguments I've heard since I was a wee pup. That doesn't mean I dismiss everything...just the garbage that gets regurgitated.

And yes...I can still have a meaningful discussion about religion (and still do) so you can go ahead and bin whatever preconceptions you have about me or my posts.

And yes fuckstick...I have seen Expelled. There were some things in there that I didn't expect to hear in those terms, but the overall tone of the film was childish in the extreme. Besides...bashing one film doesn't mean you can make direct correlations to another movie that argues the opposite point.

Settle down and get your wife to jack you off or something.

[GONNAFISTYA]

I like how you reply twice in a row and then add on a bunch of back-slapping posts, then you try to accuse me of posting too much in reply when I reply to only half of your bullshit.

Or are you referring to the fact that I am actually engaging your intellectual superiors in a rational manner, too? I know, four whole posts when six or seven people are addressing me, that's the oloest thing evar.

Poor angry Turing. I made him count posts to make sure he wasn't crazy.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

The old Turing was cool but the recent opinionated Turing is turning out to be, for lack of a better word, retarded.

[Turing]

Actually, I don't have to go back to count in order to remember small numbers. It's part of not being a complete moron.

And the fact is that you're absolutely not seeing my point whatsoever and you took an argument that I was making to someone else, warped it into what you wanted to argue against, and then used that to dismiss me. Now all you have to add is "I don't wanna hear it" and "Wah wah wah" and now you're gushing about childhood stories. It's like you're giving me all of the downsides of fucking a college girl but with none of the perks.

[Turing]

The old Turing was cool but the recent opinionated Turing is turning out to be, for lack of a better word, disagreeable to my knee-jerk humanist liberal stance.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

The old Turing was cool but the recent opinionated Turing is turning out to be, for lack of a better word, disagreeable to my knee-jerk humanist liberal stance.

If you mean that I don't embrace the irrational then you've got me.

Don't entice me to quote all the stupid you've already spewed in this thread.

[GONNAFISTYA]

Actually, I don't have to go back to count in order to remember small numbers. It's part of not being a complete moron.

And the fact is that you're absolutely not seeing my point whatsoever and you took an argument that I was making to someone else, warped it into what you wanted to argue against, and then used that to dismiss me. Now all you have to add is "I don't wanna hear it" and "Wah wah wah" and now you're gushing about childhood stories. It's like you're giving me all of the downsides of fucking a college girl but with none of the perks.

lol

Dude....you have no point to make. All you've done is tell people that rational is irrational and done your own knee jerk and attribute strawman arguments to me and another poster.

And the fact that you see downsides to fucking a college girl shines a bright light on whatever anger/frustration that compels you to be "God's advocate".

[Turing]

There are irrational decisions that you have to make on a constant basis. Gut decisions, instinctual decisions, that are based on more than rational thought.

I think that irrational thought can be useful from time to time. I go with my gut on certain things. I think that clinging to rationality as the only way to make decisions ends up with one making a lot of cold decisions, and that emotions and instincts can get short shrift in such a society.

Irrational doesn't instantly mean retarded, that's basically all I'm advocating. The universe is frequently irrational; believing only rational things is, in my opinion, an intellectual trap we've built.

That doesn't mean I think we should all go become geoff, it just means that I think that people believing in Zeus or Santa or Jesus or Buddha or Krishna or whoever doesn't really bother me in the least as long as they keep it to themselves.

[Κracus]

dude maher is just relijullus

Yeah...I know a comedian attempting a serious discussion is kinda crazy (there's that word again) but it's the same thing as back in the days of the kings...only the Court Jester could speak the truth without getting his head chopped off. Comedy can indeed bring down barriers.

Comedians discussing religion isn't crazy...George Carlin is proof of that.

George Carlin was the tipping point that converted me to atheism although converting isn't exactly the right word. It's more like knocked some common sense into me.

This movie should be good, can't wait to see it.

[Turing]

lol

Dude....you have no point to make. All you've done is tell people that rational is irrational and done your own knee jerk and attribute strawman arguments to me and another poster.

And the fact that you see downsides to fucking a college girl shines a bright light on whatever anger/frustration that compels you to be "God's advocate".

It's just the way that you start crying and telling me about how you used to fight with your childhood friends. At least you didn't leave hymen blood on my sheets. And the fact that you don't see downsides to fucking a college girl means you certainly haven't done so recently.

But no, I never said that rational is irrational. I said that at times, the irrational can be a good thing and that immediately saying "Your religious beliefs are irrational and thus invalid" is a good way to instantly cut of dialog and make people not want to discuss things with you. Of course, the way that you instantly clap your hands over your ears, put words in my mouth, and start screaming real loud about how I'm stupid is a good way to make people not want to discuss things with you rationally anymore as well, you fucking moronic harpy.

Why don't you get back to fantasizing about my sex life and shut your ignorant mouth? I'm sure there's some other thread where you can whip out pretend credentials based on conversations you had when you were ten.