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Topic Starter Topic: Re: Map on the Edge of Forever
fKd
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PostPosted: 03-09-2010 01:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


played it, loved it. nice work sir
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obsidian
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PostPosted: 03-09-2010 01:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


*Spoiler Alert*

Moteof Done Quick - Completed in 3:40 (even after a few screw-ups)



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D Scrama
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PostPosted: 03-09-2010 06:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I love every pixel!



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v1l3
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PostPosted: 03-09-2010 07:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That turned out really nice Sock! After watching the YouTube video I'm understanding why I had such a hard time..it's completely genious. I'm really amazed by it. :eek:
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Johnny Law
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PostPosted: 03-09-2010 10:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


A few more specific comments since we're onto a new page and clearly in the Spoiler Zone.

AEon already read my mind about pacing and the orrery, and Pat H. about the way that in the end the map felt like it was more about the skull-finding than the puzzles. So skipping past that and onto new ground:

One of the great things about exploration in games is when you get to break the pattern... find an area with a different feel and/or manage to get into a place where "you're not supposed to be". When I saw the cave area through the floor near the beginning, that was where I wanted to get to, even though the indoor rooms were cool. When it became pretty clear that I needed to collect all the skulls to get out there, that was my motivation. I'm guessing that initial glimpse of the cave wasn't accidental. :) Oh also, seeing that area through the back of the Guardian portal was nifty (and frustrating).

Some of the secret areas in the map gave tiny bits of a "getting behind the scenes" vibe as well. More of that would have been great! ... and, it's too bad the player doesn't get a chance to climb around on the outside ledges.

(Speaking of which, sort of, I'm impressed that apparently you created a whole duplicate version of the outside of the castle just to be viewed through the portal.)
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pjw
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PostPosted: 03-09-2010 10:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
Moteof Done Quick - Completed in 3:40


Holy crap. Nicely done (mostly--I made an audible "awww..." sound when you fell back down into the four-way puzzle pit. :) ).

Sorry sock, I promised you a speedrun, but I don't think I'm going to beat that...
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sock
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PostPosted: 03-10-2010 03:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@Johnny Law, The Guardian portal was suppose to the past on the front and the future on the back. The original idea was the player was going back in time to correct a problem with the place and eventually move on to the future place (the cave). Due to engine limitations the map changed so many times that most of the original stuff got changed around.

The skulls were suppose to be an optional secret and the primary reason for the place was the puzzles. After a lot of different prototype maps I soon discovered that trying to create interesting complex puzzles was always going to be next to impossible with the functionless Q3 entity set. After enjoying placing the skulls in cool secret locations I felt that they were too good to be missed out on and made them the second objective instead.

Ideally the whole map should of explained things better and had more visual clues of what was going on, but so many things are missing with the Q3 engine that I just wanted to finish this map and move on. I did not want to leave something like this unfinished because so much work and effort had been poured into it.

@pjw, what!?! you know that demo can be beaten! :p



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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-11-2010 03:30 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


This map is brilliant. This has instantly become one of my favorite maps simply because of its creativity. The game play is similar to quake 1 in that it's single player, rather linear and has secrets. I enjoyed this map so much... What would be interesting is if you added a timer for defrag so we could really time how fast we are doing it. ;)

Well done, mate.



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obsidian
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PostPosted: 03-11-2010 07:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I don't play defrag, but do you mean something like this?:

/cg_drawtimer 1



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^Ghost
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PostPosted: 03-11-2010 08:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


not quite..

adding start/stop timer entities in radiant linked to a trigger which can be found here .. http://q3a.ath.cx/?editing=df_install



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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-11-2010 12:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


^Ghost wrote:
not quite..

adding start/stop timer entities in radiant linked to a trigger which can be found here .. http://q3a.ath.cx/?editing=df_install


Indeed. It is essentially a timer that is started and stopped with a trigger at certain locations, so the start could be right after you exit the portal, and the end could be right where it says "To be continued..."



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sock
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PostPosted: 03-11-2010 01:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@Anthem, I am glad you like it, I hope you enjoyed searching for the skulls. The map only has space for one more player trigger, so it would be impossible to add defrag triggers to this map. The engine limit is 255 and this map has 254.



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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-11-2010 01:37 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


sock wrote:
@Anthem, I am glad you like it, I hope you enjoyed searching for the skulls. The map only has space for one more player trigger, so it would be impossible to add defrag triggers to this map. The engine limit is 255 and this map has 254.


Haha, what a shame. :) Indeed, I thoroughly enjoyed it. :)



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AEon
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PostPosted: 03-11-2010 03:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sock,
to "close off" the whole SP map topic, the following may be am interesting "special" for the mappers here in this forum: You should still have all your nicely prepared screenshots that show the development and progress of your map? It could be quite spiffy to create an additional screenshot sub-page on your site, that lets folks browse the progress (mapping history in images). Especially after seeing the finished map, the "old" shots could give interesting insights into how ideas take shape. Short comments added to each shot, explaining a few ideas (at the time) might also be spiffy.

If you have the time, that is.
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obsidian
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PostPosted: 03-11-2010 08:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sock, you need to add one more entity in there, "just because" (like a ceiling fan or something) :)

AEon, when Sock sent me one of his betas, he neglected to tell me that he hadn't completed the ending section of the map (where you fall down the hole and jump through the teleporter). So after bonking my head trying to solve all the puzzles and find all the skulls, I found myself in that pit with a broken teleporter which destination was just back to the same pit. I spent a good amount of time trying to find a way out (thinking it was just another puzzle) until I finally gave up and emailed Sock cursing him for the infinite loop.

Here is my write-up for one of the earlier betas. The layout on the first floor is significantly different (teleporter room that was removed) and the first room with the skull counter didn't exist. The orrery room was added later as well:
http://www.robotrenegade.com/temp/moteof/



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AEon
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PostPosted: 03-12-2010 12:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian,
very cool... it's almost like looking at the old id shots, comparing them with the final game. Lots of details have been very much improved. And the screenshots make it very interesting. Will read it more closely later. Thanks.
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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-12-2010 03:58 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Actually, you may be able to add the defrag timers to the first teleport trigger in the first room and the trigger at the end (near the To be continued...). They just need to be linked to a trigger, but maybe it still won't work... hmm...



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^Ghost
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PostPosted: 03-12-2010 11:49 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


no
u cant link a trigger_teleport to a start timer. it'd need a separate trigger_multpile key

from my experience
its like linking trigger_push to a stop timer. timer wont stop ull just get pushed back/forward



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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-12-2010 11:59 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


^Ghost wrote:
no
u cant link a trigger_teleport to a start timer. it'd need a separate trigger_multpile key

from my experience
its like linking trigger_push to a stop timer. timer wont stop ull just get pushed back/forward



Ah, okay. I am a bit rusty from many aspects of mapping, please forgive my ignorance. ;)



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sock
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PostPosted: 03-12-2010 01:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote




This is mostly for AEon as he seems to be interested in the old beta stuff. I have uploaded all the old beta zip files to my website and quickly put together a web page for it with download links and a quick paragraph on the major changes in each beta. (Obsidian's link is about beta 4)

Webby: http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/map ... f_beta.htm

@Anthem, I double checked the source map and it is possible to setup the defrag triggers because the start of the map has a trigger and the final 'to be continued' is an area trigger. Just you or ghost need to tweak it and recompile the map.



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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-12-2010 02:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I will look into it. I was trying with it earlier without any avail. If I can manage to get it to work I will PM you.

(Ghost, feel free to try too. You seem to be more experienced with defrag mapping that I am, so you may be able to get it to work).



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^Ghost
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PostPosted: 03-12-2010 04:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lol radiant crashes on me every time its done loading.



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sock
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 08:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote




What is it, Version 2!!! (The defrag release)

* Added defrag timer triggers to map. Start - first set of pillars in Guardian chamber, Finish - 'to be continued message'. @Anthem, ^Ghost, Please could you test this?
* Changed texture on secret buttons (Painted red to stand out more)
* Changed light behind switches to blue. (Should be more obvious)
* Fixed the broken fog brushwork on the front of the portal model!
* Fixed overlapping brush in puzzle room 5. (top beams)
* Fixed texture on 45 degree light fixture in puzzle room 5.
* Fixed light leak on puzzle room 5 wall. It looked like a secret wall panel.
* Changed all the light map density values for puzzle room 5.
* Fixed wood colour errors on electric generators.
* Removed light switch on shortcut between lift 2 and teleporter.
* Removed light switch on generator in lift shaft 1.
* Added broken second switch panel to top of lift shaft 2. (Hint to player to look for the button instead)
* Broke wood beams on portcullis leading to orrery. (Should be able to spot the button easier)
* The lights behind switches in the first room switch off quicker so players notices difference
* Changed most text messages to be less confusing about subject.
* Re-recorded a new demo showing complete walkthrough again.
* Re-arranged the order of the skull-o-meter to hint at locations better.

The list above is mostly cosmetic stuff, but I got the impression Anthem, ^Ghost wanted to play this map with the defrag mod, so here it is plus some other stuff as well! :p

New Linky : http://www.simonoc.com/files/maps/q3/moteof_final2.zip (49.1Mb)

Once I get a 'yes ok' from Anthem, ^Ghost on the defrag setup working I will replace the main link on my site as well. This pk3 file will work fine with the previous pk3 file.



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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 10:07 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sigh... The defrag triggers work perfectly, but if someone '/kill's or he or she is sent back to the beginning from the teleporter, the timer resets. :/ I guess we should have thought about that before hand. This could be fixed if some how the start trigger was changed to the first room (two switches to open the first doors) instead of after spawning. Although it is more ideal to have it done after spawning, it is impossible to keep your time if you use the teleporter at the end.



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Last edited by Anthem on 03-13-2010 10:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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^Ghost
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 10:28 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


starting from the pk3. you'd want to make a .defi file, defrag maps dont use .arena files.. layout would like something like this

Code:
{
map      "minions-run13"
longname   "RuN FoR YeR Lif3"
author      "ghost"
vq3      "1"
cpm      "1"
style      "run"
}


im not sure if u added checkpoints (target_checkpoint) because i had cheats on, but this is a important in defrag, it might be difficult placing them in a map like this, but since it is your map you would understand it easier. you would place a checkpoint after finishing a new area or just entering a new area.

Quote:
Sigh... The defrag triggers work perfectly, but if someone '/kill's or he or she is sent back to the beginning from the teleporter, the timer resets. :/ I guess we should have thought about that before hand


im not quite sure what u mean, i tested it with cheats on (since i cant finish the map :D) and it plays fine.



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Last edited by ^Ghost on 03-13-2010 10:34 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 10:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


^Ghost wrote:
but starting from the pk3. you'd want to make a .defi file, defrag maps dont use .arena files.. layout would like something like this

Code:
{
map      "minions-run13"
longname   "RuN FoR YeR Lif3"
author      "ghost"
vq3      "1"
cpm      "1"
style      "run"
}


im not sure if u added checkpoints (target_checkpoint / because i had cheats on) but this is a important in defrag, it might be difficult placing them in a map like this, but since it is your map you would understand it easier. you would place a checkpoint after finishing a new area or just entering a new area.

Quote:
Sigh... The defrag triggers work perfectly, but if someone '/kill's or he or she is sent back to the beginning from the teleporter, the timer resets. :/ I guess we should have thought about that before hand


im not quite sure what u mean, i tested it with cheats on (since i cant finish the map :D) and it plays fine.


The triggers work, but at the end of the map there is a teleporter that takes you back to the beginning spawn (where the start_timer trigger is), which resets the timer. Also, if someone /kills he or she is able to start the timer over even with all the skulls found. Obviously this will just be used for players to time themselves, but it relinquishes the ability of this map to have mdd records or anything of that nature.

Actually, another, much simpler fix for this would be simply to move the teleport target of that teleport at the end of the map forward a bit (past the start_timer entity) so it is less obtrusive. Besides, it's not like we will actually consider the fastest time to be someone who abused the start_timer location.



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^Ghost
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 11:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quote:
Actually, another, much simpler fix for this would be simply to move the teleport target of that teleport at the end of the map forward a bit (past the start_timer entity) so it is less obtrusive. Besides, it's not like we will actually consider the fastest time to be someone who abused the start_timer location.


in doing so add a one-sided player clip (simple patch mesh) right after start trigger to avoid any of this, make the start timer have a wait of -1 (/kill to reset time)

and as u can guess sock, time reset is a problem in defrag and gets taken advantage of in any way possible



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sock
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 11:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@^Ghost, Ok will create a defi file and include with the pk3 file. There is no more triggers left for a checkpoint, so it will difficult. Plus 2 parts of the map are random each time so it will be a tricky challenge to get right anyway.

The v2 zip file has been taken down, while I compile another version with the correct defi file and the teleporter spawn infront of the timer trigger (thanks Anthem for the idea)

brb :)



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AEon
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 11:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sock,
thanks for the "quick screenshot page"... I played beta 4 and 6... it was quite interesting to see how some of the layout changed. I liked the idea of the "spike puzzle" that let you jump down to the lower level of the map... first time I actually missed turning on the generator.

From the shots and in-map, it is clear how much nicer the map turned out after you started to add all the detail, especially the books and shelves. It makes you appreciate the final map all the more seeing such improvements, e.g. using the yellow shaders for the final puzzle.

It really makes me wish the entity limit had been 512... just to let you add more puzzles, or make them just a bit more complex.

Anyway, again thanks for providing this awesome experience.

Interesting to read obsidians feedback, after playing the early versions. Quite a few of his comments, were things I had noted as well... and good that these were improved on.
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sock
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 03:40 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quote:
Actually, another, much simpler fix for this would be simply to move the teleport target of that teleport at the end of the map forward a bit (past the start_timer entity) so it is less obtrusive. Besides, it's not like we will actually consider the fastest time to be someone who abused the start_timer location.


Zippy File : http://www.simonoc.com/files/maps/q3/moteof_final2.zip

Ok I have done above and updated the zip with the defi file as well. Let me know how it works. I also don't expect people to take this serious as a defrag map, it is just setup for fun.

@AEon, I am glad the link+page was useful to you. It was a crazy long project and I have a lot of memories looking back at those beta maps.



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Anthem
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PostPosted: 03-13-2010 04:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


sock wrote:
Quote:
Actually, another, much simpler fix for this would be simply to move the teleport target of that teleport at the end of the map forward a bit (past the start_timer entity) so it is less obtrusive. Besides, it's not like we will actually consider the fastest time to be someone who abused the start_timer location.


Zippy File : http://www.simonoc.com/files/maps/q3/moteof_final2.zip

Ok I have done above and updated the zip with the defi file as well. Let me know how it works. I also don't expect people to take this serious as a defrag map, it is just setup for fun.

@AEon, I am glad the link+page was useful to you. It was a crazy long project and I have a lot of memories looking back at those beta maps.


Lovely job. Works smoothly.



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Silicone_Milk
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PostPosted: 03-14-2010 01:15 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Damn that was tricky. Completed in about an hour I believe. Uploading demo.
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Silicone_Milk
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PostPosted: 03-14-2010 01:24 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I can't find the demo file. I can run it in IOQuake3 but I can't find the physical file anywhere...
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sock
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PostPosted: 03-14-2010 03:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Silicone_Milk wrote:
I can't find the demo file. I can run it in IOQuake3 but I can't find the physical file anywhere...


It is buried under your user profile directory, do a search for _dm68 files and you should find it.

@Anthem, Thanks I will change the download link on my website to match this new version. I don't expect many people to download the map again but it should help out the new people that stumble across my site.



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you're the man Sock.
"C:\documents and settings\%user_profile%\Application Data\Quake3" on Windows XP for anybody else wondering as well... (replace %user_profile% with the account name ioquake3 is installed on).

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B2aVQ0 ... MWY2&hl=en

demo names are silicone_run and second_silicone_run. Both were recorded back to back.
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