Quake Live WIP: ABC_beta

[xiripiti]

You don't have to make a new thread for every release. Just update the old one and post a reply. You can update the title too by editing the initial post.

From now on I`ll do that

[AEon]

Generally speaking I still feel the layout is "quirky". One tends to have to do strange jumps, all over the place, or bumps into walls or stair step-edges.

• Not helping I know, but I actually liked the map better with the plain textures.
• Placing items in corners, especially weapons can be less than fluid, i.e. the PG forcing the player to "squeeze" between the wall and the stairs. Placing the PG more centrally IMO would be better.
• The high JP leading (if you jump back to the heigh level MH) technically will throw you into a wall when moving forward. The whole area above the JP IMO is much too cramped, no movement space.
• Getting to the MH via former JP is also strange. IMO it would be better to properly connect the MH level area better with the rest of the map. Presently there is a one way up, and then you jump down somehow.
• The whole med-level of the map, the level you reach via elevator pad, i.e. on the LG level is very cramped. You can do some jumping to get around on that level if you like, but I felt it was not really worthwhile. Feels very much like trick-jumping, instead of a gameflow. Also the chimney on that level pretty much gets in the way. Hmm...
• Why is the TP (teleporter) in the wall, forcing you to jump a ledge to get at it? Simply putting the TP on the wall worked better.
• At the TP, taking the path right past the green armour (GA) you encounter a JP that catapults you up to stairs and the RG. That JP is in the middle of the path, i.e. blocking the path for bots, forcing the player to jump over it. Never seen that sort of use of JPs... and IMO for a reason. This blocks the path when trying to stay on the lowest level. Create some space and let the player run past the JP, would be my suggestion.
• Same JP, from the LG trying to reach the upper level of the RG, you would have to jump down onto the JP, to then reach the ledge on the other side. An down and up movement for a movement, needlessly adding extra bound, complicating movement when you could simply go up by some stairs, if this area was wider. For a bit of fun I would probably use a AP (acceleration pad) instead of stairs.
• When you run up the 90 degree 1/4 spiral stairs, you suddenly must jump down, or run along a very narrow edge, to reach the other side where you come out at the YA. Don't really know what this is good for?
• Running along the out wall corridor I noted you do get stuck in those for a lengthy time, the term "corridor cancer" comes to mind. Usually a sign that some interesting layout changes would help. Careful not to end up with the "swiss cheese" map (holes everywhere).

IMO, it would help if you take some time to think through the pathing:

• What are the main areas you want to reach? And ensure you can get there by several paths.
• What are the main height areas you want to have in the map? Do these e.g. let the player stay on that level, i.e. for better gameflow, or do you need to change height too frequently.
• Are all the paths necessary?
• Does the bouncing around serve a purpose?
• Does the TP serve a purpose?
• Is there enough room to move? I.e. for combat? If not add more space for that movement.
• Do things get in the way of movement? Too many holes you might fall in? Note that these wholes block bots, but also players who will inadvertently fall into them, e.g. when trying to run backwards.

No idea if any of this is helpful... I have the feeling possibly not. It could be that the way you see gameplay is completely different from mine.

Sorry if this is coming across as negative, that is not my intent, I am just trying to get to grips with the map. And in case you are wondering, yes, it is very difficult to create a good gameflow for a map. In my own maps I did get it right a few times, other times less so.

And I mention this now, because as soon as you start adding detail, you will be less and less likely to change the layout and gameflow. So the latter really needs to work before investing huge amounts of time on detail.

[KittenIgnition]

How do you work like this? I decompiled the map to look around, and all the geometry is so uneven and ugly. It's like you used gridsize 1 for everything, which makes nothing line up properly. I just don't get how you can operate in such an environment, especially now that you're adding textures... it's like Hell.

[xiripiti]

How do you work like this? ... it's like Hell.

Hi Kitten
You right, this was not done in the proper way, not with that "pro" look. There some work basics I dont know yet. Next map will be done with some more experience, I hope.
Anyway, those textures are only a test, and 3 days after I hate them.I`m back to plain colors and remaking the layout, trying to make it technically better.

[xiripiti]

Aeon
Ty for spending so much time analysing this last version and give me so much stuff to think about.
About gameflow my general intention is (was) to make paths not too easy for human players and make them use more of their skills......I understand that this creates a lot of dead ends for bots, but my doubt at this moment is: map for human vs bots, human vs human..or both ? As I said before, I have no fun playing vs bots...but maybe if a map is good for bots maybe is good for humans too. Gonna pay more atention to this and make a lot testing with bots.
About textures, I know how much they help to create an atmosphere and how that is crucial to players love or hate a map.
I`m not happy with these last textures and go back to plain colors for now.

[AEon]

xiripiti,
keep your chin up, creating something is always better than sitting around just playing games, like I have been doing lately, alas.

[xiripiti]

Hi,here is the abc_beta03.
In the last beta02 I made a big mistake: spent a lot time trying some textures I had in mind, instead doing what matters: work on the layout. So, let`s forget beta02.
I`m back to plain colors for the textures, and, as a experience, I changed them into blue and I`m glad with it.
On the ground level made big changes: the elevator is gone, and changed the position of the JP, now in the center of the back corridor, near the TP. The large central area is now divided in 2, with a small corridor between them.
The middle and upper levels are now more "clean", with less dead ends, making the running easier, specialy for bots. Also small changes on items position. I thing that most of spawn points must be redefined on next beta release.
I have still big doubts about weps/ammo positioning, and also about health/armour items. Play vs bots is not enough to find the right answer to that.
It would be nice if IDSoftware made a server to where map designers upload their maps and play them online with their friends.I would gladly PAY for that.
I wait for ur comments
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqq932yj2u95x ... beta03.pk3

abc_beta03_1.jpg

abc_beta03_2.jpg

[Theftbot]

You don't have to make a new thread for every release. Just update the old one and post a reply. You can update the title too by editing the initial post.

http://quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 7&p=968091

[AEon]

I am really glad to see these changes. I really love your simpler texturing, and apparently that is your forte, to make simple texturing look good on geometry, I admire that a lot. A few things I noted:

• I really love the stripes behind the JPs... very elegant.
• Your almost indirect lights shining onto indented wall niches also look very nice (in main arena ground floor).
• Moving the PG helps.
• TPs no longer force you to jump... definitely better now.
• Closing up some of the floor holes also helps. Make the map look less chaotic as well.
• I don't miss the elevator a bit .
• Connecting the RA area with some stairs to the med level also helps.

• Closing off the room under the YA, now with a 2nd TP, was a good thing IMO. But instead of exiting this TP near the YA, I think it would actually be a lot more interesting gameflow-wise to have it exit in the wall niche, that will directly lead you to the MH (i.e. you exit the niche, and continue running on the bridge to the MH).
• I still would love to see some sort of connection between the top level MH, and the other side where the RA is, e.g. a narrow bridge to add some "danger" and difficulty". Though that might become an issue, i.e. you TP exit get the MH and then get the RA right away as well. But the RA could probably be moved.
• Just an observation: Your splitting the arena on the ground floor level into two areas, forces the player on both sides of the wall either to run in parallel to the JP or the TP... that feels a bit tedious (too much running), and from a point of layout too much the "same". Shortening the path from for the TP e.g. might help, not easy I know. But something IMO needs to be done to avoid the sameness.
• Bottom of the level in the PG arena. To enter the area on the ground floor you have this doorway, that is placed a bit awkwardly. If you come from the other arena, to will need to make a sharp turn right to avoid bumping into the steps here. IMO, it could help to move the steps back into the wall, by maybe half the width of the stair, to add more space near the doorway. This indenting of the steps into the wall might also look more interesting.
• Following the RL corridor, you end up just below the bridge leading to the MH. Alas my skills at jumping are not good enough to make it to that bridge. Some extra step in the wall, as stepping stone might, help us less skilled to get to the MH bridge from the RL level. From the other side JP you can easily reach the MH bridge.

I have a few other thoughts about gameflow, but I think you are on the way of discovering them yourself, probably finding better solutions.

Map is really starting to look solid, nice design, neat texturing, gameflow is definitely getting there. About the latter you might want to give some of the corridors along the outer walls some thought, e.g. do you really need them all? I have the feeling the YA one is a bit long and strange, even though I like the stairs at both ends. On the other side of the area, when you pass the SG, TP and then the JP and then GL... this one is also quite long and narrow, and pretty much totally disconnected from the rest of the "action", i.e. the central arena areas. Corridor fighting might be good, not sure though.

[xiripiti]

Hi Aeon
Make the TP go MH instead to YA seems a bright idea.
Make a sort of "bridge" from MH to the other side to get the RA...hmmmm... maybe that is turning things too easy.
I`m keeping work on the ground level, not happy with it. Have new ideas, I will show you soon. Maybe overcomplicated but I`m sure u will say something about it.

[xiripiti]

abc_beta04_3.jpg

abc_beta04_2.jpg

Hi guys
This is Abc_beta04 for Quake Live
As my concern was to do something about the central groundfloor and how to make it less "boring", here is what I did:
moved all rooms a bit to the center of map. The result is a smaller central floor. However, rooms in all floors around kept the original size, as much as possible.
Also made 2 new wayouts from the center plaza, leading to the upper floors. Like this, no more that feeling of being trapped in the center map. Some "props" (e.g. crates) will be necessary here, coz it seems too naked.
Changed some items position: MH is now on the central ground floor, and RA is now where MH was before, on the top platform. But the bridge is no longer there, a jump - easy - is necessary to get RA. Bots can not make that jump, but who cares?...should I ???
After playing vs bots i think there are too many ArmorShards and HealthSmall all over the map...something to see.
I like the blue tone of the map, so I will keep that on the final textures. You can see 2 examples of that on the central plaza walls.
For Aeon: U said u have a few other thoughts about gameflow for this map...let me ear that:))
About the 2 corridors along the walls: after the changes on the groundfloor, they are not so long. I still think they are usefull.
Waiting for your comments

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5o0ap3adctb9 ... beta04.pk3

[Hipshot]

Why do you keep creating new threads about the same level? =)

[xiripiti]

Why do you keep creating new threads about the same level? =)

Ho crap! Forgot it again...Gonna stick a post-it in the center of my screen.

[AEon]

It might be good if one of you obsidian, Hipshot or cityy would comment on the map. I feel the map is becoming too biased by my point of view.

[cityy]

I can try having a look next week. University is making love with me sideways right now.

[xiripiti]

I feel the map is becoming too biased...

Sorry my poor english: What u mean by "biased"?

[AEon]

That my way of mapping and thinking is influencing your map more and more, actually too much, so that your own vision and ideas are getting pushed back.

[xiripiti]

...so that your own vision and ideas are getting pushed back.

Dont think so. My original idea stays the same in this beta 04. But...showed the map to some friends and all say the same: "boring".Think that the cubic shape of the layout and the symetrical distribution of all rooms makes the map not enough interesting. I must say -sadly- that the original idea was precisely make a very symetrical map with the rooms distributed along the external walls. However, I think it`s possible to make it more intersting while keeping some symetry. That will be my job for beta 05

[AEon]

I still think that lowering/lifting up one half of the bottom-most floor would directly make the map more interesting. Your mid and upper levels have such variation in height and are thus more interesting. It is only the ground floor that still feels too flat IMO.

[Hipshot]

It might be good if one of you obsidian, Hipshot or cityy would comment on the map. I feel the map is becoming too biased by my point of view.

Quake Live =( There should be a way to play these in Q3.

[cityy]

It might be good if one of you obsidian, Hipshot or cityy would comment on the map. I feel the map is becoming too biased by my point of view.

Quake Live =( There should be a way to play these in Q3.

http://quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 28#p967428

[xiripiti]

abc_beta05_2.jpg

abc_beta05_1.jpg

Hi again
Some important changes in this ABC_beta05.
1) Some rooms have been rescaled and repositioned. All map is now a bit more tight around the center.
2) one room on upper level do not exists.This interrupts the way around this level, making the player to find other ways.
3) reduced the number of health items
4) added a small bridge leading to RA. This was done thinking on bot play, humans do not need that.
With these changes I think the map is now much less "boring", and more fluid. There are now several ways to reach the same point of the map.

Start working in the textures also. For now I`m glad with it, but much more detailed textures will be needed, as also some more detailed objects.

Something weird happens when I play this map in a QLive server: some textures look deformed when we are far from them, but they are correct when we get close. Look at the ground mosaics and the stone walls. This do not happens when I play it on Wolfcamql. Any idea?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x5qh2igtq1wdh ... beta05.pk3

[AEon]

It really seems to have been for the best that you had more time on your own to think about where you want to map to go, instead of me or others flooding you with "quick fix ideas". I very much like this version, textures look nice and the overall more compact layout works well. I am starting to get the feeling this could turn out to become a classic 1on1 map. But since I am no good at 1on1 cannot really help in that respect.

A few thoughts:

• I like how the MH TP lets you get to the RA, and an easy (even for me) jump gets you to the RG, great path. You may want to think about the combo MH TP RA RG though, you quickly could pick up two power-ups and the RG, usually one of the more sought after weapons. Putting the RG somewhere less readily "available" might be good. E.g. in the YA med-level corridor, i.e. to make player use these less quickly available parts of the map more.
• I really like how you can jump from the RL to the RG to the 3rd platform with the LG, and the med-level area under the RA. This way you can take shortcuts on the upper/med level of this side of the map to get to the other side. The TPs add additional quick links. This could make the map quite intense when good players are playing it (this is a good thing IMO).
• Your lowest level in the map seems to be fine now, many exists but that lets the player move quickly.
• Small aesthetic thing: The new bridge on the RA level, when exiting the TP, directly connecting the left and right side of the map, might still be niced-up slightly. Maybe use steps instead of ramps or something.
• On the technical side, please ensure that you add clip (player clip) to all the columns protruding from walls, in such a way that you can slide along the walls without getting stuck. When running backwards I got stuck in quite a few areas. You probably already have that on your todo, just a reminder. Also it would be good to clip the metal-work around the RG, the RA and under the RA. When jumping "between" these metal tubes I sometimes get deflected or slightly held up, IMO, this has to do with lack of clipping.
• Since this is becoming a small map, the short distances between the weapons cannot be helped. But it could help to give the gameflow one last think, e.g. what paths do you use, or think players will use, and then take note what the player will be able to pick up on those paths. And try to tweak them if need be.
  
  E.g. RL RG LG path jumping might get the player too many of the very powerful weapons too quickly, with the GL this means almost all weapons are in this half of the map. IMO, it would help to keep the RL in the corridor on the 3rd level but move it towards the RA arena more, e.g. by one room segment, i.e. making the RL no longer directly visible.
  
  E.g. The 3rd floor 50H in the RA arena might be better placed right under the RA on the med-level platform with grates. To motivate players to take the jump down there. The RG I would put where the 50H used to be, at the top of the RA arena JP. This would give the "dead end" here special significance.
  
  E.g. Starting at the MH, it is very much quicker to get the RA via TP, than the YA (not the one next to the GL) via much longer corridor. Especially because you cannot RL to the YA presently. So it might be something to think about swapping the locations of the YA with the RA. Just to force players to work more to get the valuable RA.
  
  E.g. Should you have swapped the 50H with the RG, then the RG would be very close to the LG. It could help to move the LG to the lowest floor corner (near the GA) where you put the GL ammo, so that that corner of the map also gets meaning. And move the GL on the RG spot, adds fun grenade spamming from above, and seperates the GL from the YA here.
  
  E.g. IMO two YA, a RA and a GA are too much. I would remove the the YA next to the YA, and either put a few 5Hx2 or 5Ax2 there instead.
  
  In my minds eye I think I have the item placement mostly figured out. This would be mostly for FFA. Maybe some of the suggestions are of some use though.
  
  In short as you may be gathering: I am thinking about how to place items and weapons in such a way that they make the most of all your corridors and paths in map, while at the same time trying to keep the powerful items are far apart as possible. At least that is the idea.
• If you should swap the YA (not GL YA one) with the RA, it might be nice to lift up the floor right under the then RA by two steps, so that standing at the MH you can check if the RA is there or now. Sort of a tactical thing, helping the player decide if he/she should run down that long corridor or not.

Other than that I feel your map is pretty much there. Good work.

Sorry, I thought I was not going to meddle much, but the more I look at your now nice map the more potential for further improvements I see.

If you have thoughts on certain weapon placements etc. please share them, I am very much interested in the logic of item placement, and like all of us, we are always learning near things.

[xiripiti]

Hi Aeon
Ty for ur comments...I need some time to digest them. On my first reading I saw some important advices about items placement. I needed that. About playerclip, only on the last version or so.
I`m glad that u feel I´m going the right way.

[xiripiti]

One more thing, Aeon.
I want to say here that this map is a bit yours too.
Without ur interest and nice comments, maybe beta02 was the last one.