AEdm7 - AEon's DM 7 Redux - Final!

[AEon]

One of your JP effects (Solar) should be a decal you mean, right?

Code: Select all

// Commented out the rotation etc. stuff
textures/aedm7/movesquare1
{
	qer_editorimage textures/aedm7/jumpring.jpg
	qer_trans 0.3
	surfaceparm noimpact
	surfaceparm nolightmap
	cull none
	surfaceparm trans
	surfaceparm nonsolid
	surfaceparm nodlight
//	deformvertexes move 0 0 200 sawtooth 0 1 1 .8
	{
		clampmap textures/aedm7/jumpring.jpg
//		tcMod rotate -250
//		rgbGen wave sawtooth 1 -1 1 .8
		blendfunc add
	}
}

The trick with Tabun's decals was supposed to be the blending (I never use fog so, I have no idea if that works), IIRC, and you seem to use clampmap.

[Hipshot]

That is not a decal as I see it. That's my Jp effect, it kinda moves =) The clamp just well uh, clamps the texture to the middle of the face, more or less...

This could be a decal for me:

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textures/NN/NN
{
   qer_editorimage textures/NN/NN.tga
   qer_alphafunc greater 0.5
   qer_trans 0.99
   surfaceparm alphashadow
   surfaceparm trans
   surfaceparm nonsolid
   surfaceparm nomarks
   polygonOffset
   {
      map textures/NN/NN.tga
      blendFunc blend
      rgbGen identity
   }
}

I have a lot of different ways of doing decals, as long as I use polyoffset I consider it a decal.
The reason why my Ivy further up didn't have polygonoffset is because I want them to have a distance from my walls.

This is another one

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textures/hipshot_m8/e6metalfan_s
{
	qer_editorimage textures/hipshot_m8/e6metalfan.tga
	surfaceparm nomarks
	surfaceparm nonsolid					
	sort 6	
	polygonOffset
	{
		clampmap textures/hipshot_m8/fan.tga
		tcMod rotate -500
		rgbGen identity
	}
	{
		map textures/hipshot_m8/e6metalfan.tga
		blendfunc blend
		rgbGen identity
	}
	{
		map $lightmap
		rgbGen identity
		blendFunc GL_DST_COLOR GL_ZERO
		depthFunc equal
	}	
}

It's a fan texture with a lightmap...

[AEon]

I'll create a cut up of the corridor with the rock, as a small test map, using these shaders to see how that goes. Thanks for the tips.

[Hipshot]

I would love to test this myself, but I don't have time.
I'm waiting to see what you can come up with!

[AEon]

I started to use a spotlight again yesterday, will test how a spotlight hitting a decal turns out. Well anyway all this will only create shadows, AFAICT, you are not actually projecting the decal's color or so onto surfaces.

[Pat Howard]

I gave it a good play today and I must say it was a very confusing experience. Fun - just confusing. All my problems have to do with the central corridors. They all look so similar that it's very difficult to know where you're going until you really know the map. I also kept getting the feeling that the rooms were about 3x further apart than they actually are, which makes me think that I was running in circles and that the paths are not as direct as they should be.

I think you need to break these halls up a bit. Open them at important junctions into micro-rooms. Include unique details to these areas (like the steam from the vent hydrating the plant in the lower connection) to give people something to remember. One other thing: I'd move your weapons closer to the center of the player's view. You have so many items tucked in alcoves or corners with dim lighting that I often ran by them without realizing.

I'm also on the fence about the TPs. Part of me wants to keep at least one of them because the Quad/PG room is so poorly connected, but another part of me worries that they will become so much easier to use than the corridors that I'd choose the TPs every time.

Overall I think it's a really fun map to play if you're willing to just turn your brain off and go wherever the halls take you, but on a larger more strategic scale it can be very frustrating. Those hallways seem very modular, so maybe it would be worth it to try playing with them a bit. Or maybe I just had a bad game. I'll give second impressions after another play-through.
-pat

[AEon]

Pat,
your feedback very much sounds like you had trouble with the layout of the map and then were looking for an explanation why that is so. One can rationalize a lot, but that does not always make it valid. E.g. I don't have the slightest problem knowing where I am or were to go, and don't see any need to add extra "rooms" or such. You cannot expect to understand a map in a few minutes, though you can expect the paths to take you somewhere meaningful, and that should be the case in this map.

I agree making the corridors a bit more noteworthy is a good thing. And that will happen by adding more rock formations instead of walls. For me the arena based gameplay works very well, i.e. playing on different height levels trying to get the bots playing lower down in the arenas. Jumping from ledge to ledge changing height levels. And it's far from "mindless" running around. I'd suggest you play the map a few more times until you understand the layout. A better item placement may give some of the corridors more meaning, but such improvements would need to be explicitly pointed out.

Example paths: RA to GL, ledge on the right, jump into the TP room, to either use the TP or enter the GL room overlooking RL1 arena. Or RA to GL, take path on left jump into shard tube, jump into RL area with AP. Or from GL area overlooking RL1 area, jump down to the AP, or over to the SG room.

Placing weapons in "corners": Yes, that is the case for several of those, but why are they too darkly lit? Maybe you are just used to weapons being right in the middle of the path. Hmm... id does that in q3dm7 come to think of it. To me picking up a weapon is a tactical thing, you don't stumble into them by chance (same for power-ups), you have to go for them "actively".

If possible, I'd appreciate a top-down shot, pointing out exactly were you felt confused and why, and a suggestion how this may fixed. Same for weapon and item placement.

[sock]

Wow this map is freakin huge! I had to fly up into the sky to understand how it was connected, it feels very much like a SP map to me with all the corridors. The Quad area feels very far away from the rest of the map, personally I would cut that area and dump the Quad in the non rock wall courtyard. You should try and give both arena's a different look, one organic and the other heavy industrial. Keep the greenery on one side of the map and create a blend from green to brown across the map from arena to arena.

The steam particle effect felt strange rotating around following me! Have a look at this map (http://www.lvlworld.com/review.php?id=1992) and check out how he did the particle effect in the closed off corridor, it looks like some industrial accident but he has the steam/electrical stuff flowing well. You could also alpha fade one end of the steam so it feels more natural and disperses into thin air.

[v1l3]

I'm seeing this thing on the top of that wall..I can't remember what that's called. Not a HOM but an eh? Past that that map is great beyond great! I'm not seeing a problem with finding my way around considering that it has the same layout as beta1 for the most part.(without trying to off Pat ) Removing the tele from the LG room changes things a bit. Maybe I'm a bit forgetful, but it seems like you have shrunk down the map. With all the plants added, makes it alot easier to identify where you're at considering it was all wall before.
I REALLY like it!

[obsidian]

Z-fighting or depth sorting.

[v1l3]

One more problem...I spawned inside a wall. I dunno if this happens in other places, I'm still messing around.

[AEon]

Sock,
well I don't actually find it that large... everyone seems to be used to tourney maps

Arenas... and different look... one RL2 will stay as it is (rocks), the other one will stay more crete but also a bit of rock. IMO, that differentiates them enough. The blending from greenery arena to industrial sounds interesting, though I'll skip on that idea. Problem is I don't actually know how to create a heavy industrial look, and don't really like that style.

Quad arena... I'll turn that into a cave, we can see how that goes. It is off the trodden path, but that's the way it is supposed to be, you have to go for the Quad. But via the upper level TP you can get there pretty quickly, and via a few other ways too. Dropping that arena completely had occurred to me several times as well. The very first versions of the map did not have the Quad arena. But I still think it deserves to be kept.

The steam particle effect felt strange rotating around following me! Have a look at this map (http://www.lvlworld.com/review.php?id=1992) and check out how he did the particle effect in the closed off corridor, it looks like some industrial accident but he has the steam/electrical stuff flowing well. You could also alpha fade one end of the steam so it feels more natural and disperses into thin air.

Thanks, will look into that map... and yup, the present version is an "idea", but the implementation is not really "there". How does an alpha fade work in texture and code? I definitely want something like that, just could not figure out how.


v1l3,
the spawn point in the rocks... weird... I thought I had that fixed. Thanks. The z-fighting occurred due to my using Hipshot's lightmapped vine shader (and forgetting to switch back) vs. Socks "decal" vertex shader. That was a test on the wall, will need to be redone.

[sock]

Problem is I don't actually know how to create a heavy industrial look, and don't really like that style.

Haha ok this did make me laugh that you don't like the style or know how to create it! Anyway there are a few examples you can have a look at, you never know the style might grow on you ... or not!

First up : Rust in Peace The Author has done a few industrial type maps and RIP is a nice example of the blocky strogg like architecture I was thinking you might like to try for that non green arena. Also this map is worth checking for the really cool particle effect he has at the bottom of the map which you might like

Link to particle studio thread : http://www.warsow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=19648

Second example : Pillamyd by evil lair who loves industrial/metal textures and also created a couple of maps to pimp his textures as well. Again blocky Q2 strogg industrial look, something that would go well with crates!

[AEon]

Haha ok this did make me laugh that you don't like the style or know how to create it! Anyway there are a few examples you can have a look at, you never know the style might grow on you ... or not!

... well your examples show a clinical industrial look, something I actually did "happen" in this map, to some extent - well the eX texture set "defined" that primarily. When I said that, I had in mind the "all out totally dirty gritty oily polluted dark industrial look" - I don't really like. That look IMO is depressing and I prefer map you actually like to play in, with a certain "happiness" element. You plants have together with the bright skybox have greatly helped to create this feeling. I'd say AEdm7 is stylized eco-gritty base/industrial look with a mild retro Q2 influence here and there (q4dm1, and the Q2 crates and logos).

I'll take a close look concerning the shaders / effects. Thanks.

[Kaz]

Aww, it's my old baby Rust in Peace... they grow up so quick!

The smoke effect at the bottom was created with particle studio, I'm sure that you'd be able to whip up something even fancier using the fancier PS that came out more recently.

[sock]

well your examples show a clinical industrial look, something I actually did "happen" in this map, to some extent

I was not expecting you to take the examples literally, I know they are clean industrial blocks, but I assumed you would simple add more grunge decals to them. What I mean is the hard angles, the use of metal and concrete, dark/light contrasting colours and more details like you got on the sides of your map. For a hypothetical example, the machinery you have up high in the corner of the map, it looks like some rusty old windmill steam pump machine. Bring that stuff closer to the player, let the player move under structures like that, give the arena a character, a unique visual hook. Big maps need landmarks, at the moment I have no way of uniquely describing each arena to someone else and making them sound different.

[AEon]

I had trouble finding the PS files... since the links in that thread are broken (planet hosting sites are all dead):

• Freebrief Particle Studio v1.1:
  This is version 1.1 of the Particle Studio for id Tech 3 driven games, made by the Freebrief team. It was designed by Bart "Imois" Vrijkorte for Quake III Arena.
• Frozen Sand Particle Studio v1.0:
  This is version 1.0 of the Particle Studio for id Tech 3 driven games, made by Jonathan 'Null' Norton. Originally it was designed for Urban Terror, made by the Frozen Sand team.

We might want to update our resource sticky with these.

[AEon]

I'll probably not be using particle effects since these really kill the frame rate if you are not very careful, IIRC.

The Quad area, turning into a cave... of sorts... I initially wanted to really turn the complete area into a cave, but I'll probably not do that. Again the greenery makes that area look interesting, my first version without plants was terrible:

• 

Will need to continue fiddling with the glass/decals. Created a simple "godray" for the "holes" in the upcoming glass corridor ceilings.

Note: Using GTKradiant v1.5 *really* helps to place/rotate plants in real time. Alas v1.5 has a few issues: It does not preview the _remap command (all the plants have the base texture), and moving the grass (patches) makes these models collapse. But placing the more complicated (multi-leafed) plants works great. Just save the changes map with plants, load them into v1.4 and continue working on them. A direct copy/paste between v1.5 and v1.4 does not work alas.

[AEon]

Shorter Paths:

• Taking the comment about the corridor "lengths" and possibly redundancy seriously, I'll make the corridors and the Quad area about 256u less "deep". This significantly sortens the paths you need to take.
• The corridor from the the Quad area to the RL, always had that redundant feeling to it. It flows well enough but, the closed off short path is so much more practical. Closed off path (RG to RL), will be opened again. But the JP will not come out there, but in the to be closed Quad-RL corridor.
• I am also thinking about reducing the corridors around the RA area.

Hope this is not some sort of worsening of things that never needed to be fixed in the first place ("Verschlimmbesserung"). But more compact paths, should help speed up the gameflow a bit. Anyway gives me something "large-scale" to do.

[d3mol!t!on]

Freebrief Particle Studio v1.1:
This is version 1.1 of the Particle Studio for id Tech 3 driven games, made by the Freebrief team. It was designed by Bart "Imois" Vrijkorte for Quake III Arena.

Well your timing couldn't have been better because I was just looking for that myself

[Pat Howard]

OK, finally getting around to this.

- QUAD room can definitely be slid over 256, fitting it better into the footprint.

- I'm glad you're working on the corridors. Those are by far my least favorite part of the map. Even after I was able to get a grasp on my relative position to the arenas at all times, I'd still get tricked by how similar they looked. I'd work on creating landmarks within them. Overgrown vegetation would be a good way to start without breaking their modular industrial look.

- I also think the corridors are simply over-connected. It makes them appear to be much more expansive than they actually are >> redundancy and confusion. Of course you have them memorized, you MADE THEM!!! I, on the other hand, have only played this version, and I must reiterate how many problems I had finding my way.

I would disconnect the two stacked central S-Junctions from the rest of the corridors. Also remove the JPs up to them. I don't understand the logic of "connecting all your connecting paths" and I think each one would have more individual purpose if they simply went from one room to the next. I'm not saying don't give your players options within these connections, you can still do that. Ultimately though, these options should all bring you to roughly the same area. This is what I meant about "turning my brain off". I couldn't make a conscious decision to go from one room to the next because I kept getting lost or distracted and I'd end up in a different place than I intended. Remember, the real gameplay exists in the arenas, so I wouldn't worry about making the corridors a little more linear.

- There were also some very similar features in the two RL arenas that tricked me, specifically the central square pools with the water plants in them.

- About your weapon placement in corners/alcoves. Just make sure you're not confusing "tactical" with "annoying". The RG is a good example. It is already off the beat path, so you don't need to put it in an alcove too. The MH, on the other hand, is in a high traffic area and tucking it away makes for better risk/reward gameplay.

- Verschlimmbesserung. Nice word .

I'll try a top down screenshot if you don't understand some of the stuff I'm saying. To be honest though I've dreaded doing this lately. As a tester I've been questioning whether it's my job to impose such big changes on someone else's layout. It's impossible to know exactly what an artist is chasing and that kind of feedback almost always gets shut down. Even worse is when people actually do take the suggestions literally and you feel like you've stolen their map. Perhaps it's better in the big situations to just voice my general problems and let the artist find what he thinks is the best solution. Any thoughts?
-pat

[AEon]

I would disconnect the two stacked central S-Junctions from the rest of the corridors. Also remove the JPs up to them. I don't understand the logic of "connecting all your connecting paths" and I think each one would have more individual purpose if they simply went from one room to the next.

Please make a top-down shot of these, and sketch out what you were thinking. I have quite specific ideas how to change the corridors. But maybe you have an additional idea / inspiration that I could add while I am at it.

Long straight corridors is something I am reducing at present. Especially the RA area I want to simplify... IMO the present flow there is great, it is fun to run around those corners, though a bit time consuming. But I want to do something about vis-blocking.

About the RG... same argument you mention for the MH applies here as well... it is supposed to be dangerous - a tad more effort to get it. I'd understand your argument with the RL1 arena RL, it may be better placed on the walkway right in front of the TP, like q3dm7 sorta did it. And the other GL and RL in the corners as well... because these are "often used" and should be a bit more accessible maybe. Will think about this some more.

The Quad pool has lost 128u in width... the asymmetrical look is interesting, plus the detail density went up here (automatically), so that should be good. Now for slimming down the length of the corridors... they will loose a total of 256u. Should yield some interesting problem solution.

[Pat Howard]

The red filling marks the key hallways that I believe are over-connecting things. Get rid of these and you'll also be able to scrunch the QUAD arena and the RA corridor closer into the map footprint.

You don't have a simple template version of the map that I could use do you? It's nearly impossible clearly show big layout changes with just a top down screenshot. I suppose I could just use black and white lines and label rooms but it would be tough to see what's what given the complexity of the layout.



I've used arrows to show the default paths that players should use to get to the QUAD room. Notice that when coming from RL1 players won't be able to see the RG to their left without breaking off the default path and checking the alcove. When I place a weapon that's "off the beaten trail", I usually like to make sure it's at least visible so players remember to go get it. The green location is where I think it should go. Remember, the "danger" mechanic is better used in heavily frequented areas, where a player is more likely to be trapped.

The RL1 seems fine since it's in plain view from everywhere. It's just the combination of not being able to see a weapon AND having to go off the beaten path that bugs me. I still occasionally forget about the RG without a visual cue. Once you memorize the map all this is not a huge deal. Just thought it was some valuable weapon placement theory worth discussing.

[AEon]

You seem to have a few more radical ideas in mind it seems ... might be best to get into that once the map is done, if it's too radical it would indeed no longer be my map. For later then...

Image 1:

• The red closed paths have an interesting aspect to them... they actually force the player to take certain paths. This is something I re-did in AEcantw2... and it helped.
  
  *Only* would you really want to close off those paths, the GL1 area can only be accessed via the SG1 ledge in RL1 arena, the other path, from the GL2 platform jumping into the TP niche. No main paths let you access that area.
• Left red path block: This means you will have to follow the path all the way to the GL2. Will think about this... I wanted to make the room south of the RA larger, and merge the paths somewhat. Without *having* to connect, I can do some interesting other things.
  
  I have to admit the red block does kill a path redundancy, since you can use the ledges to get to the GL1 quickly, so taking the long path (left of SG1) is not really that useful, when wanting to reach the GL1.
  
  Connecting the RL1 TP to the red block as an exit, would be an interesting quick way to gain height next to the GL1. I am not so happy about what that means for the SG1 to GL2 path.
• Mid red path block: Added to let players reach the upper GL1 area and gain height quickly. Hmmm... using the above TP idea it might be a bit redundant, but I still like using it.

Image 2:

• Well there is the even more important TP exit path, I use that most of the time to get the Quad. Your upper path just died ... the blocked door above the JP is open again, letting you get from the RL2 to the Quad... since I reduced the path lengths, you get there more quickly.
• About the RG... your argument can be valid... but then again if you love the RG you will not forget to go for it. And hiding it a bit should not really be an issue. Placing it in the middle of the corridor is not a solution, IMO. But I get your idea... will think about this some more... since a few paths have already changed, and the RA area will also, the RG may move. I'd like the RG in front of the RL2 arena gate in the rocks. But that is too close to the LG...

Interesting ideas. I'm surprised that there are still other possibilities that I had overlooked. I'll post a layout update soon (top-down shot). I'll also rethink the "dedicated" paths idea - it does have merrit... though I am not quite sure how much.

[AEon]

Started to move weapons out of corners and niches... I have to admit that is a good thing.

The Quad arena TP exist was "rotated" by 45°... makes the corner look more interesting, IMO, and breaks with the right angles just that little bit:

• 

I am going to add a JP between the ramp on the left and the TP exit, a connection to the RL2. Opening up the closed gate (direct connection between RG and RL2) has some vis issues, it makes it hard to skip over the JP hole due to the ramp, and the path is simply too direct.

Will see how the new JP works for this area... should at the very least make it "look" interesting... but I think also from a gameplay perspective having a "vantage point" could be nifty. Anyway making the Quad arena smaller, gives it a distinct "cute" feel - after all the time playing the larger version of that area.