The impending execution of Stanley "Tookie" Willia

[R00k]

[I was surprised to find more white folks were on death row countrywide than black folks. The opposite has been thrown at me for years, causing me to question the system on the basis of racial prejudice.

For a guy asking for for proper statistics, you conveniently fail to mention that the black population of the US constitutes.... what? 15%


canis

I actually overlooked that, which is just more evidence these "stats" can be taken out of context, and further validates my argument. I did it out of error, not out of convenience. Additionally I just mentioned I was surprised by it, as it had always been thrown at me that there were more black folks than white folks on death row. In totals, this is the case, but when its normalized to the percentage of the population that is black its a definite larger number of that population. It is for this exact reason that I'm asking for proper statistics.

No. You've been hearing that blacks have proportionately more people on death row than whites, and have somehow misunderstood it as more in totals. Then, instead of saying you have been misunderstanding it the whole time, you say that it's the fault of statistics in general, and say it proves why they can't be trusted.

It's not Bush's fuzzy math, it's your own fuzzy logic that's got you here.

[Canis]

vengence isn't necessarily what's healthiest for a society and therefore not the most important factor here imo

ignore basic human nature if thats what floats your boat.

Refraining from killing other people to get what you want isn't necessarily "basic human nature", either. We have forced social living upon ourselves, and with that comes the understanding that crime is detrimental. It's not instinct.

Self defense, for one, isnt a wrong form of killing. If someone threatens my life then I'm more than willing to take his first. As for the death penalty pertaining to crimes, I believe its necessary, but thats kinda where the argument ends. Stats dont prove a thing, despite showing correlations. Yes one can correlate murder rates to incidents of execution, but its a shitload more complicated than that. There are all kinds of socioeconomic and political influences on murder rates, and the correlations are put up there as black and white indicators, almost as proof. Nobody validates the correlation by true statistical analysis or by normalizing them to other influencing data. Correlation is (and I hate to attribute it to him) Bush's "fuzzy math" crap, and means nothing in the long run.

However, I'm finding recently that stats that have been thrown in my face have been bullshit. I was surprised to find more white folks were on death row countrywide than black folks. The opposite has been thrown at me for years, causing me to question the system on the basis of racial prejudice.

Stats might be used to prove just about anything, but if the numbers are bullshit, then why haven't we seen any proof that it actually is working? Even if we go out on a limb and say that the numbers don't prove the death penalty doesn't work, we're still operating with a lack of any evidence at all. It's like saying, "Well, we don't know if it works or not, but let's just do it anyway." When you're talking about killing people, that's not good logic.

And to add to what Foo said about murderers not operating under the assumption that they'll be caught, the death penalty is only applicable for specifically "heinous" and premeditated crimes. If the criminal is willing to plan a particularly terrible crime, then I have a hard time believing that the thought of, "oh, I'd better not do this or I might get the death penalty" is going to sway their actions.[/quote]


EDIT: Quotes above are fucked...

Precisely. One can skew data in any direction they want, and my only interjection on it was to do something to add more validity to the statistics.

The main problem here is folks see anything that is said (that isnt in complete support to their posts) as something that's against their posts, and as such end up fighting it, so bullshit arguments and tension ensues when it could have easily been avoided.

[Canis]

For a guy asking for for proper statistics, you conveniently fail to mention that the black population of the US constitutes.... what? 15%


canis

I actually overlooked that, which is just more evidence these "stats" can be taken out of context, and further validates my argument. I did it out of error, not out of convenience. Additionally I just mentioned I was surprised by it, as it had always been thrown at me that there were more black folks than white folks on death row. In totals, this is the case, but when its normalized to the percentage of the population that is black its a definite larger number of that population. It is for this exact reason that I'm asking for proper statistics.

No. You've been hearing that blacks have proportionately more people on death row than whites, and have somehow misunderstood it as more in totals. Then, instead of saying you have been misunderstanding it the whole time, you say that it's the fault of statistics in general, and say it proves why they can't be trusted.

It's not Bush's fuzzy math, it's your own fuzzy logic that's got you here.

No, I've heard that more blacks were on death row than whites, and I've heard that proportional to the number of whites on death row, there have been more blacks on death row. I've admitted this is the view I've had of it, and its been one I've agreed with and taken for granted as factual, despite not having looked up the numbers myself, so seeing the stats on CNN today had me surprised, and when I looked at them earlier on I overlooked the association with the population size differences (my mistake). I havent heard an folks talking about these numbers with emphasis on the white population vs the black population. Still, this is besides the issue of the significance of death penalty vs murders based on that correlation alone.

[werldhed]

EDIT: Quotes above are fucked...

Yeah, saw that, but was too lazy...

Fixed. :icon25:

[R00k]

No, I've heard that more blacks were on death row than whites, and I've heard that proportional to the number of whites on death row, there have been more blacks on death row. I've admitted this is the view I've had of it, and its been one I've agreed with and taken for granted as factual, despite not having looked up the numbers myself, so seeing the stats on CNN today had me surprised, and when I looked at them earlier on I overlooked the association with the population size differences (my mistake). I havent heard an folks talking about these numbers with emphasis on the white population vs the black population. Still, this is besides the issue of the significance of death penalty vs murders based on that correlation alone.

I can see your point, but if all those statistics point toward even the irrelevance of the death penalty, much less show it as a detriment, and there are not any at all pointing in the opposite direction, you have to admit that is a significant statement in and of itself.

[shadd_]

went on a little trip today and CBC radio had some good stuff on the subject. jessie jackson, wes McBride a 28-year veteran of the LA police gang unit and joe hicks(another civil rights activist).

the guy is clearly not innocent. deserving of death is another story.

main page http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2005/200512/20051212.html

part with relevant info http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/media/2005 ... t_sec2.ram

i'm using k-lite codec and mp classic with the .ram file.

[Canis]

No, I've heard that more blacks were on death row than whites, and I've heard that proportional to the number of whites on death row, there have been more blacks on death row. I've admitted this is the view I've had of it, and its been one I've agreed with and taken for granted as factual, despite not having looked up the numbers myself, so seeing the stats on CNN today had me surprised, and when I looked at them earlier on I overlooked the association with the population size differences (my mistake). I havent heard an folks talking about these numbers with emphasis on the white population vs the black population. Still, this is besides the issue of the significance of death penalty vs murders based on that correlation alone.

I can see your point, but if all those statistics point toward even the irrelevance of the death penalty, much less show it as a detriment, and there are not any at all pointing in the opposite direction, you have to admit that is a significant statement in and of itself.

There are instances such as the one I described earlier between Louisiana and Texas, that show either no difference or the opposite correlation, and such "correlations" can be summed together to make an impactful statement. While I'm refraining from taking a stance on whether or not the death penalty actually DOES affect crime (one way or another), I am skeptical of the "statistics" that are thrown out there in support of either position. From the beginning I was only interested in seeing the stats from 1998 presented with more representation of other factors such as population density, or even others such as economic status. I say do this and throw them all out there, and see if the correllations still match up. By itself, one graph that shows two variables compared for a small timeframe means nearly nothing.

[DRuM]

It's ridiculous. A guy takes several human lives, isn't executed years ago, gets fed well in prison, gets nominated for the nobel peace prize, and lives happily ever after. Meanwhile, families have been destroyed by him, and have to watch as this guy becomes a hero. What a fucking insult.

[GONNAFISTYA]

It's ridiculous. A guy takes several human lives, isn't executed years ago, gets fed well in prison, gets nominated for the nobel peace prize, and lives happily ever after. Meanwhile, families have been destroyed by him, and have to watch as this guy becomes a hero. What a fucking insult.

Pretty much sums it up.

[Canis]

It's ridiculous. A guy takes several human lives, isn't executed years ago, gets fed well in prison, gets nominated for the nobel peace prize, and lives happily ever after. Meanwhile, families have been destroyed by him, and have to watch as this guy becomes a hero. What a fucking insult.

I think its an element of how some kidnap victims end up sympathizing for their kidnappers, except on a group level, and especially since those who are sympathizing werent directly affected by the murders.

[Guest]

He's getting executed tonight...

[R00k]

It's ridiculous. A guy takes several human lives, isn't executed years ago, gets fed well in prison, gets nominated for the nobel peace prize, and lives happily ever after. Meanwhile, families have been destroyed by him, and have to watch as this guy becomes a hero. What a fucking insult.

Who said he was a hero? I think there's a good possibility the guy could make up for some of the horrible shit he's done by having a real impact on gang violence. Look at all these thugs who are shouting in his defense. If he stood up and talked some prison sense to them and clued them in, do you not think they would listen - at least some of them? He took four lives, but he could possibly save dozens, or hundreds.

In a case like this, I think I would leave it up to the families of his victims if I were governor.

[DRuM]

It's ridiculous. A guy takes several human lives, isn't executed years ago, gets fed well in prison, gets nominated for the nobel peace prize, and lives happily ever after. Meanwhile, families have been destroyed by him, and have to watch as this guy becomes a hero. What a fucking insult.

Who said he was a hero? I think there's a good possibility the guy could make up for some of the horrible shit he's done by having a real impact on gang violence. Look at all these thugs who are shouting in his defense. If he stood up and talked some prison sense to them and clued them in, do you not think they would listen - at least some of them? He took four lives, but he could possibly save dozens, or hundreds.

In a case like this, I think I would leave it up to the families of his victims if I were governor.

Yeah right, he's really gonna help stop gang violence. Hello? This is the real world, it'll never stop.

[tnf]

I don't know that the death penalty is supposed to, necessarily, serve as some sort of 'ultimate deterrent' for committing violent crimes (although I know many of its supporters suggest it is) - so I am not extremely impacted when I see data showing higher homicide rates in areas that use the death penalty. I don't think it contributes to the higher homicide rate, and I don't think eliminating it would necessarily reduce the homicide rate. Correlative data doesn't impress me as much as it does folks in the psychological/sociological arenas. I could show a correlation between pirates and global warming - but it doesn't prove some sort of causal pathway from A to B. Sure the data show that executions don't reduce the total # of homicides in the states that use the death penalty. But that, in and of itself, says nothing about whether or not it is a just punishment for a person guilty of murder.

It's a punishment, albeit one that I still don't know where I stand on. For every argument against the death penalty, I can think of a situation where I'd be for it - which is why I tend to always view these things in a case-by-case basis. My biggest fear, and something that I am fairly certain will occur at some point (if it hasn't already), is that an innocent man be executed and exonerated post-execution.

Does it really depend on what the purpose of the penal system is? Is it strictly to deliver justce and punish (death penalty) or is its real purpose to reform criminals? If Tookie Williams has been truly reformed (I believe he has), does executing him make a mockery of the notion of reformation? If he hasn't been reformed, and his execution is stayed, does this make a mockery of the punishment/justice notion?

[tnf]

It's ridiculous. A guy takes several human lives, isn't executed years ago, gets fed well in prison, gets nominated for the nobel peace prize, and lives happily ever after. Meanwhile, families have been destroyed by him, and have to watch as this guy becomes a hero. What a fucking insult.

Who said he was a hero? I think there's a good possibility the guy could make up for some of the horrible shit he's done by having a real impact on gang violence. Look at all these thugs who are shouting in his defense. If he stood up and talked some prison sense to them and clued them in, do you not think they would listen - at least some of them? He took four lives, but he could possibly save dozens, or hundreds.

In a case like this, I think I would leave it up to the families of his victims if I were governor.

Yeah right, he's really gonna help stop gang violence. Hello? This is the real world, it'll never stop.

Actually, having worked almost daily with kids that are Crips for the last 3 years, I can say that truces put together by folks at the top of the 'gang food chain' can have an impact in stopping some violence. Again, don't frame the issue in terms of an impossible 'all or nothing' result.

Will it ever stop completely - no way. But can it be helped? Sure.

[Canidae]

Tookie must die.

EOF

[DooMer]

The death penalty is obviously for revenge. I don't have any problems with that, except if somebody is wrongly convicted. I don't think this guy has been wrongly convicted, and I don't think he's reformed at all. If the crips really gave a shit about this guys message, and if this guy really gave a shit about gang violence, the crips shouldn't even exist whether he lives or dies. He still won't admit he killed those people, and yet he "reformed". I think he just wants to be some kind of misunderstood hero, and a shot at extending his life.

[tnf]

Maybe we shoudl send him to chuck norris or to get a lifetime supply of vitamin T.

[DooMer]

Not even Tookie deserves death by chuck norris.

[tnf]

think we coudl get him as another mod here?

[Canidae]

The death penalty is obviously for revenge. I don't have any problems with that, except if somebody is wrongly convicted. I don't think this guy has been wrongly convicted, and I don't think he's reformed at all. If the crips really gave a shit about this guys message, and if this guy really gave a shit about gang violence, the crips shouldn't even exist whether he lives or dies. He still won't admit he killed those people, and yet he "reformed". I think he just wants to be some kind of misunderstood hero, and a shot at extending his life.

I think he is just playing the tough guy to the end and thinks he can write his own rules when it comes to making amends for his evil life while flipping the bird to those whos life he destroyed.
He is responsible for thousands of deaths due to organized gang crimes and he personally knows those killers and remains unremorseful and silent.
In another timeline there might have been other gangs fomed in the Crips place and other victims but these victims in this world are HIS.

The relationship between death penalty and murder is more complex than just saying "look...states with the death penalty have higher murder rates, it must not be a deterrent"
Well IT IS to some crimminals and it is ALSO a reason why some may kill all witnesses to avoid paying with their life if they are caught. In addition, the death penalty is a reaction to more crime in some parts of the states and the reason why the death penalty and high murder rates tend to go hand in hand and to say that proves it is not a useful tool of justice is as stupid and looking at your own soldier mortality rates in a war zone and surrendering WITHOUT taking into account enemy kill statistics.

The death sentence is one way of excising the human gene pool of those dangerous to all of us, the cancer within.
All may not agree with it but with respect to states who implement it in defence of the cancer that ravages them, you have to respect that we all have different ways to treat the illness.

[Nightshade]

I'm in favor of the death penalty, although not in its current implementation. I do believe that if you are convicted of a capital crime by a jury of your peers on a fair trial, that the death penalty is warranted. I do not think that those that commit heinous, violent crimes deserve to live. True, life in prison would be a terrible punishment, but I do believe there is merit in the 'eye for an eye' argument.
The problem is that our justice system is flawed, and too many people have been exonerated by things like DNA evidence that wasn't available when they were tried. Class and race issues also factor heavily into my thinking that there should be a moratorium on the death penalty.
Also, convicted murderers facing the death penalty spend YEARS on death row, filing appeal after appeal. I think that that's the reason why the threat of death is not that much of a deterrent. If we were lining people up and shooting them after they were convicted, I suspect the situation would be different.
So some say the death penalty is about retribution. So? Is there anything wrong with wanting too see the dirtbag that murdered a loved one put to death? If one of my family members was murdered and they caught the guy red-handed, I'd do everything I could to be able to shoot him myself. Call me barbaric, atavistic, whatever. Can any of you really say you wouldn't feel the same?
A girl I knew in college many years ago was murdered. Sick fuck cut her heart out in her bathtub. Cops found him swinging from a tree branch. My only regret was that her dad didn't get the chance to shoot the fucker in the face with a 12 gauge.

[Hannibal]

So some say the death penalty is about retribution. So? Is there anything wrong with wanting too see the dirtbag that murdered a loved one put to death? If one of my family members was murdered and they caught the guy red-handed, I'd do everything I could to be able to shoot him myself. Call me barbaric, atavistic, whatever. Can any of you really say you wouldn't feel the same?

I'm sure most of us would feel the same, NS. The question I would have is this: How far can or should we go in using acute emotional reactions to traumatic events as part of the basis for conceptualizing justice?

[Canidae]

Is he dead yet??

[mrd]

A girl I knew in college many years ago was murdered. Sick fuck cut her heart out in her bathtub. Cops found him swinging from a tree branch. My only regret was that her dad didn't get the chance to shoot the fucker in the face with a 12 gauge.

It's these types of crimes that I think the death penalty is good for. While I can say that a very few cases of murder may not deserve the death penalty, something as sick and fucked up as carving out a young woman's heart needs to be fucking punished. If I ever met anyone that had been convicted of that I'd fuckin run across the court room and start beating the shit out of him. I don't even care if some asshole guard shot me. I fucking detest shit like that. Rape and mutilation of women is #1 on my list of shit that fuckin' pisses me the fuck off.