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I AM fucking discussing! How about instead of defending your ego, you actually address the rest of what I said in that post, huh?Law wrote:lol, my whole argument is far from moot, considering the scenario I put forward is based upon the hypothetical circumstance of a child being in a normal school. Stop trying to win, and just discuss.
They're famous. :icon27:Law wrote:They are Hollywood stars?
I'm talking about ages 4-13 approx, the lower(?) school.busetibi wrote:can you define your idea of "children" and "kids" as in age please ?bikkeldesnikkel wrote: Children don't care about homosexual parents, they don't care if the kids are fat, kids don't really care about anything! Everything they do is on a very very basic level. They don't even understand what homosexuality or even heterosexuality is until a much older age, an age where they can be mature enough to understand and accept homosexuality.
The scenario where a child is raised where homosexuality was openly accepted as normal, the child's parents had gay friends over frequently and these gay people expressed themselves openly, hollywood movies had gay heroes, camp attitudes were portrayed as normal and language was portrayed to become gay-friendly is a totally hypothetical situation. In some parts of scoiecty some aspects of it are true, in some parts of society none of the aspects are true and no parts of society are all the aspects true.werldhed wrote:Why is this a hypothetical situation? My parents and I both have multiple gay friends. Neither of us have any young children around, but it's not hard to believe other people do.Law wrote:Probably not, but what's the point in discussing a hypothetical situation that will never become a reality?[xeno]Julios wrote: umm...
Please answer yes or no:
Imagine you raised a child in an environment where homosexuality was openly accepted as normal. The child's parents had gay friends over frequently and these gay people expressed themselves openly.
Imagine hollywood movies had gay heroes.
Imagine camp attitudes were portrayed as normal, in cartoons for example.
Imagine language changed to become gay-friendly.
Now here's my question - do you believe a child would have hostility toward gays in this environment?
Hollywood does have gay heroes. Brokeback Mtn, off the top of my head.
Being flaming is becoming more the norm. Queer Eye? Metrosexuals? Long hair? Those are all in things. And what about the males in anime cartoons? Many current popular toons are based on anime style, and they are certainly camp enough.
Language is becoming gay-friendly, although I admit not quite to the level that we'd like to see.
I don't think this is so much a case of people living in an idealized world as it is a case of you believing gays are worse off. Maybe it's where you live. I don't know.
Like I said, I believe children will care about whether another student has two homosexual males as their parent.bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Children don't care about homosexual parents, they don't care if the kids are fat, kids don't really care about anything! Everything they do is on a very very basic level. They don't even understand what homosexuality or even heterosexuality is until a much older age, an age where they can be mature enough to understand and accept homosexuality.Law wrote:Well that's where we disagree, I believe children will care about whether another student has two homosexual males as their parent.
If the children in the school are properly raised kids, and the child with the homosexual parents isn't a "wuss" so to speak, then there will be no problems.
If you do agree on this, then you can at least start on such a level and see where it goes from there.I do agree that if there are methods in which a child can be excluded from vilification then the problem is solved.
Settle down there junior.Transient wrote:I AM fucking discussing! How about instead of defending your ego, you actually address the rest of what I said in that post, huh?Law wrote:lol, my whole argument is far from moot, considering the scenario I put forward is based upon the hypothetical circumstance of a child being in a normal school. Stop trying to win, and just discuss.They're famous. :icon27:Law wrote:They are Hollywood stars?
I just gave examples of why it isn't a hypothetical situation. Basically, your argument boils down to, "Gay men shouldn't be allowed to adopt in areas of society that homosexuality is not accepted."Law wrote:The scenario where a child is raised where homosexuality was openly accepted as normal, the child's parents had gay friends over frequently and these gay people expressed themselves openly, hollywood movies had gay heroes, camp attitudes were portrayed as normal and language was portrayed to become gay-friendly is a totally hypothetical situation. In some parts of scoiecty some aspects of it are true, in some parts of society none of the aspects are true and no parts of society are all the aspects true.
What about the majority of the planet where next to none of the aspects are true?bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Giving homosexual partners the right to adopt a child is hypothetical too, that doesn't mean it's impossible.
And there are parts of society where almost all the aspects are true, and that is all you need to raise a normal and good functioning human being.
Is every adult and school child in Holland in acceptance of homosexuality?werldhed wrote:I just gave examples of why it isn't a hypothetical situation. Basically, your argument boils down to, "Gay men shouldn't be allowed to adopt in areas of society that homosexuality is not accepted."Law wrote:The scenario where a child is raised where homosexuality was openly accepted as normal, the child's parents had gay friends over frequently and these gay people expressed themselves openly, hollywood movies had gay heroes, camp attitudes were portrayed as normal and language was portrayed to become gay-friendly is a totally hypothetical situation. In some parts of scoiecty some aspects of it are true, in some parts of society none of the aspects are true and no parts of society are all the aspects true.
That doesn't make for a sweeping anti-adoption argument. How about in Holland, should gays be allowed to adopt there?
Even if they would care, the psychological trauma would be totally up to the child itself and the children among him.Law wrote:Like I said, I believe children will care about whether another student has two homosexual males as their parent.
Who cares? Not everyone in the US is accepting of Jews, but that doesn't prevent them from adopting, does it?Law wrote:Is every adult and school child in Holland in acceptance of homosexuality?
That is why this will take a long time, but it is possible. That was your point to begin with right?Law wrote:What about the majority of the planet where next to none of the aspects are true?bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Giving homosexual partners the right to adopt a child is hypothetical too, that doesn't mean it's impossible.
And there are parts of society where almost all the aspects are true, and that is all you need to raise a normal and good functioning human being.
You're avoiding my post.Law wrote:Settle down there junior.
errr, i think in Australia it is impossible.bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Giving homosexual partners the right to adopt a child is hypothetical too, that doesn't mean it's impossible.
)But I thoughtTransient wrote:By the way, I knew a gay kid in high school. He wasn't getting made fun of. He was a popular guy who had a bunch of friends. He was totally open about being gay and was very camp. His positive mentality no doubt contributed to his social status. Now if he can do it, why can't someone else who is one step removed? I would imagine that gay parents wouldn't elicit nearly the same response as someone being gay themself.
Transient wrote:Being gay and having gay parents are wholly different things. To assume that they would both elicit equal teasing in school is simply ignorant.
All in due time my man, in due time... bzzt.busetibi wrote:errr, i think in Australia it is impossible.bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Giving homosexual partners the right to adopt a child is hypothetical too, that doesn't mean it's impossible.
(hypotheticaly that is
Simply because you as a small example representing the minority would not have had a problem with a child who had gay parents doesn't disprove the fact that the majority of children would feel differently.bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Even if they would care, the psychological trauma would be totally up to the child itself and the children among him.Law wrote:Like I said, I believe children will care about whether another student has two homosexual males as their parent.
If you can accept gay parents and gay children who's to say it's not possible for (almost) everyone to accept them.
I myself as a child would not have had a problem with kids who had gay parents, so your theory of inherent homophobia is ruled out.
my god!bikkeldesnikkel wrote: I'm talking about ages 4-13 approx, the lower(?) school.
Once they reach 13 and up, it's the parents who can get their children to understand and accept homosexuality. I'll give that there will still be problems, but most can be avoided.
He confirmed his first post. The last line says being gay and having gay parent will elicit different responses.Law wrote:But I thoughtTransient wrote:By the way, I knew a gay kid in high school. He wasn't getting made fun of. He was a popular guy who had a bunch of friends. He was totally open about being gay and was very camp. His positive mentality no doubt contributed to his social status. Now if he can do it, why can't someone else who is one step removed? I would imagine that gay parents wouldn't elicit nearly the same response as someone being gay themself.
Transient wrote:Being gay and having gay parents are wholly different things. To assume that they would both elicit equal teasing in school is simply ignorant.
As much as you don't get the uselessness of irrelevant arguments I guess.[xeno]Julios wrote:My mind's still reeling from the objection that it's a hypothetical situation.
Law, you still don't get the whole purpose of counterfactual reasoning do you?
But it does prove the fact it is not inherent in children.Law wrote:Simply because you as a small example representing the minority would not have had a problem with a child who had gay parents doesn't disprove the fact that the majority of children would feel differently.bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Even if they would care, the psychological trauma would be totally up to the child itself and the children among him.Law wrote:Like I said, I believe children will care about whether another student has two homosexual males as their parent.
If you can accept gay parents and gay children who's to say it's not possible for (almost) everyone to accept them.
I myself as a child would not have had a problem with kids who had gay parents, so your theory of inherent homophobia is ruled out.
lol no, please do enligten mebusetibi wrote:my god!
do you have children?
in particular, daughters?
never, its law.bikkeldesnikkel wrote:All in due time my man, in due time... bzzt.busetibi wrote:errr, i think in Australia it is impossible.bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Giving homosexual partners the right to adopt a child is hypothetical too, that doesn't mean it's impossible.
(hypotheticaly that is
