Quake3World

Jackal wrote:

o'dium wrote:Just FYI, future xbox 360 games will need the HDD as well Dev teams pretty much said a warm "fuck off" to M$ and started to use the HDD so they could get bigger enviroments.

Question for you Odium. How do you think games are developed?
This isn't a flame, your post just has my interest piqued.

Thats a bit of an odd question. I think you mean in sense to my original post, in which case i would say that Hard Drives can load data faster than the CD can, so for bigger games it makes sense to upload the data to the HDD and stream it from there when needed rather than from the CD. In most cases your not going to need to do this as the games tiny anyways, but for large games with high memory needs, the HDD can act as secondary ram. the 360 already has 1-2gig (cant remember how much) built in thats saved for this task if needed.

Its kinda like how windows works with virtual memory.

o'dium wrote:

Jackal wrote:

o'dium wrote:Just FYI, future xbox 360 games will need the HDD as well Dev teams pretty much said a warm "fuck off" to M$ and started to use the HDD so they could get bigger enviroments.

Question for you Odium. How do you think games are developed?
This isn't a flame, your post just has my interest piqued.

Thats a bit of an odd question. I think you mean in sense to my original post, in which case i would say that Hard Drives can load data faster than the CD can, so for bigger games it makes sense to upload the data to the HDD and stream it from there when needed rather than from the CD. In most cases your not going to need to do this as the games tiny anyways, but for large games with high memory needs, the HDD can act as secondary ram. the 360 already has 1-2gig (cant remember how much) built in thats saved for this task if needed.

Its kinda like how windows works with virtual memory.

You didn't answer my question. My question stemmed from you saying developers "gave a big FU to MS".

As for actual development it depends on the team. Its much easier to make say GTA3, comapred to GTA3 next gen. The PS3 and the 360 have the exact same extension set so they can do the same things. In fact the 360 takes a slight lead because it can do HDR and full screen AA at the same time smoothly and the PS3 cant.

The way i see it is that it depends on the work load and the extension set. You can make lego star wars on any of the 3 consoles and have it look the same. You can make Doom 3 on xbox, but not on PS2 because it A) lacks the memory and B) lacks the speed and C) lacks the hardware extension set required. You can make sexy games on both systems you just have to look to the hardware.

Now on the 360 and PS3 this is a mute point, because hardware wise, they will both produce the same thing. You can make Metal Gear 4 on PS3 but can make it looking just as nice and with probably the same if not better frame rate on 360. You can make Quake 4 on 360 and exactly the same on PS3. So from a hardware point of view, you can now do the same.

However, game development has changed. PS2 and xbox games could get away with simple low polygon modles with a simple diffuse texture in what can only be called a box world with again low res textures. Simple. On 360 and PS3, its different now. You have to make source models first that have higher polygon counts for your local map compile, specular maps and then the diffuse, plus you may want to add other factors into this area, maybe advanced shaders. You dont just need to do this on a model, but on every surface in the game. So you effectivly need to make your game in high quality and port it down so to speak (Its not that way, but with the amount of source data you need to produce...). This takes time, money and effort. So gone are the days when you COULD just make a game in a few months and ship it. It takes a few monthes these days to make 1 or 2 good looking models.


Remember all these things take performance and ram, with 3x at least the memory requirements of yesteryear.

Now it doesn't stop there. Games are now made for HD. This means your game must be made to look good and run smooth in the highest HD mode. Forget about Jim on his 15" TV, they dont care. Its gotta look good on that £3000 TV or its pointless. So games are made to fit THAT mode, they are made to be smooth in THAT mode. Its all well and good making Killzone 2 that looks stunning in low res, but as soon as you play it in HD the PS3/360 shits itself and crashes, locks up or just runs plain crap. You NEED to make games for HD, otherwise, nobody will bother.

Now Ninty have seen this to be a problem. They dont give a shit about HD and good on' them. Because of this, they have a lower power, lower money console in the works that will produce the same (Ok not the same but not far off) graphical content as most 360 games, because they dont have to worry about HD frame rates. If they did, then the games WOULD look like game cube games. But hey.

So there are many factors your gotta look at and these are just a few. But for the most part the PS3 and 360 are the same, and the graphics will be the same. Its now all about who throws the most money out there. The PS3 with its impossible to code for system thats the most popular, or the 360 who is easier to code for but will not sell anywhere near as good as the PS3. Its not good, because while both systems will produce the same graphics wise, its not just a matter of porting one to the other anymore. Its gonna take a lot of time and a lot of money.

Jackal wrote:

o'dium wrote:

Jackal wrote: Question for you Odium. How do you think games are developed?
This isn't a flame, your post just has my interest piqued.

Thats a bit of an odd question. I think you mean in sense to my original post, in which case i would say that Hard Drives can load data faster than the CD can, so for bigger games it makes sense to upload the data to the HDD and stream it from there when needed rather than from the CD. In most cases your not going to need to do this as the games tiny anyways, but for large games with high memory needs, the HDD can act as secondary ram. the 360 already has 1-2gig (cant remember how much) built in thats saved for this task if needed.

Its kinda like how windows works with virtual memory.

You didn't answer my question. My question stemmed from you saying developers "gave a big FU to MS".

Microsoft have said that because the 360 has two SKU's, one with HDD and one without, that the games shouldn't say on the front "Requires HDD" otherwise they wont sell as well. However, developers have seen that the core system sold really poor, and that most poeple have HDD's anyways, and have pretty much just gone ahead with making games that need the HDD. The first one of these in LMA Manager 06, which needs the HDD for storing its vast amount of player data whgich can be updated i think. More of these are coming too.

if you think hd and ld look "not far off" you really need an eye exam.
not a discussion point, just an FYI

Allow me to shift your point of view away from the technical and onto the business side of game development.

When a development company makes a game, 9 times out of 10 it is out of their own pocket (or at least through funds raised for development through venture investments). Game development is a scary business. You can dump your heart, soul, and wallet into a project and still have nothing come out of it. This happens to people all the time. You therefore tailor your product to a publisher. You lick their asshole if that's what it takes. You certainly don't give them a proverbial "fuck you" and just do whatever you want. If you do that you're going to end up with an idea, some code, a demo, a production manual, and a box to live in.
There are exceptions to this. You can be a developer that is owned by a publisher. In this case you don't have to worry quite so much about finances but you have a lot less freedom.
For the most part however, developers are independent and therefore don't have the luxury of biting the hand that feeds them.l

MKJ wrote:if you think hd and ld look "not far off" you really need an eye exam.
not a discussion point, just an FYI

Nah im just not that experienced in HD gaming. I've used it a few times but on a shoddy TV i think, nothing amazing.

ATM I cant justify spending 2 grand on a new TV just for a bit of a graphical boost I would love to like but hey, I'm not made of money

if youre not that experienced with it dont project it as a fact then

Jackal wrote:Allow me to shift your point of view away from the technical and onto the business side of game development.

When a development company makes a game, 9 times out of 10 it is out of their own pocket (or at least through funds raised for development through venture investments). Game development is a scary business. You can dump your heart, soul, and wallet into a project and still have nothing come out of it. This happens to people all the time. You therefore tailor your product to a publisher. You lick their asshole if that's what it takes. You certainly don't give them a proverbial "fuck you" and just do whatever you want. If you do that you're going to end up with an idea, some code, a demo, a production manual, and a box to live in.
There are exceptions to this. You can be a developer that is owned by a publisher. In this case you don't have to worry quite so much about finances but you have a lot less freedom.
For the most part however, developers are independent and therefore don't have the luxury of biting the hand that feeds them.l

Forgive the "fuck you" i said, its not exactly like that. Microsoft just said its best not to, as to the limited players it would have (Because M$ expected for some reason to sell way more core systems, thus, hardly no HDD's in homes) and developers are now ignoring this. They will still get thier games published, sold etc. Its not like some guy just said "fuck off M$ im going my way." They just had advice.

Like how M$ said "make all your games online". All the games have some form of online, just not how it should of been. Total online play would be better than "scoreboards" in some games.

ima get two foe earmuffs, two on my feet, two on my hands, an one on me wang, and one for me bum

i'll be pretty hip now ey

Turns out the untold legends stuff is real:

http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/814/8146 ... 58013.html

Oh and they say the games amazing because it has particle effects and rag dol and havok. Wait a second... Where did i hear that before... Oh yeah, games i was playing 3 years ago.

and if they didnt mention that youd be like "jesus it doesnt even have havok ". marketing, sir.

MKJ wrote:and if they didnt mention that youd be like "jesus it doesnt even have havok ". marketing, sir.

Probably.

I'm just looking for the part that looks and has better things than Kameo, a launch game for a "sucky" 360 system

Kameo has all that and looks sexy as hell

o'dium wrote:Turns out the untold legends stuff is real:

http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/814/8146 ... 58013.html

Oh and they say the games amazing because it has particle effects and rag dol and havok. Wait a second... Where did i hear that before... Oh yeah, games i was playing 3 years ago.

LOOOOL That looks fucking horrible.

Thats just want... So we have to upgrade our PS3 OS just to play games now as well... What a crock of shit. Who the fuck "likes" that about the PSP? They said it was ok, to who?

the 360 forces updates on you and noone complains *shrugs*
hell even the xbox1 had some games with new firmware on it. so what. the only people who care are the people who arent paying for their games anyway

MKJ wrote:the 360 forces updates on you and noone complains *shrugs*
hell even the xbox1 had some games with new firmware on it. so what. the only people who care are the people who arent paying for their games anyway

The 360 forces updates on you that fix a few things. They dont break everything else you already have on your system, forcing your collection of fantastic Emulators, your collection of home brew etc, to not work.

Now with the PS3 being this multimedia HUB, with it being able to download music, movies and games, with it being able to communicate to anything else in the house with a cell CPU in it, i dont want to be upgrading my firmware every friday because another game came out and notice my damn toaster isn't compatible anymore :icon33:

there you go. the thing is not made for emu's and other homebrew crap. if you had that running on you 360 itd be broken now too. they dont want you to use that illegal shit. like i said, the only people who complain are those who are using unsupported crap anyways.

MKJ wrote:there you go. the thing is not made for emu's and other homebrew crap. if you had that running on you 360 itd be broken now too. they dont want you to use that illegal shit. like i said, the only people who complain are those who are using unsupported crap anyways.

Ok, but at least when i DONT install the stuff i can still play on my games. The PSP and now PS3 FORCE you to install, or you cant play your games. The 360 doesn't do that.

it does. you cant cancel the auto download, you only get a message it will update now kthx.
and the xbox1 had games with forced firmware updates as well, and even demo cds (remember battlefront? ).
if they wouldnt have updates youd be complaining how theres no support for some buggy save glitch (360, anyone?).
it may also add some new driver functionality so future games may run smoother, or that devs can use some extra fancy shit in their products
best deal, i say. dont throw a fit, noones out to get you.

MKJ wrote:it does. you cant cancel the auto download, you only get a message it will update now kthx.
and the xbox1 had games with forced firmware updates as well, and even demo cds (remember battlefront? ).
if they wouldnt have updates youd be complaining how theres no support for some buggy save glitch (360, anyone?).
it may also add some new driver functionality so future games may run smoother, or that devs can use some extra fancy shit in their products
best deal, i say. dont throw a fit, noones out to get you.

Whose throwing a fit? And its not FORCED still mate. I can cancel it at anytime and update it later. Its not FORCED, its not like you put the disk in and it says "Sorry pal, unless you install this new bloaty piece of shit software, your not gonna be playing anything". It just says "theres a new update available, do you want to install?" and you click "NO". Hell you can turn them off in the dashboard as well. Its not forced, its not like you have to do it or you cant play the game.

ok then its not forced, but its highly recommended
using that logic the psp doesnt force you anything either, you can just say no and dont play the game !!1one
just like you just can say no on the 360 and just not save your COD game!

again, theyre not out to get you with those updates, theyre updating and/or fixing things. if you decided to run unsupported crap on your console its not their responsibility. its like saying Volkswagen is a piece of shit for not repairing your car after you used a bra as your v-string

Yes but you seem to be missing the point sir... On the 360, you dont need the update, and yo ucan still play (And save in COD2, its just a few bugs that crop up every so often, but a restart of the save works). On the PSP and PS3, you need to install it, or you cant play the games full stop.

See what i mean? If i have a console i dont want to be patching shit every new release, i want to put it in and play.

EDIT: Ill just add one thing. So far there have been 2, maybe 3 updates for the console ,which fixed a few needed bugs that got missed. The COd2 save bug is an update for COD2 which only pops up if you own the game. Its not an install for everybody type thing.