I wonder if Americans will notice the similarities...

[KingManULTRA]

It's called "getting involved"...rather than sitting on your ass ignoring it.

I vote in all local, state and federal elections. I read articles from CNN and the BBC daily. Heck, I even participated in a voter's drive a few years back.

Although I do not agree with Bush, the European perception that once Bush is out of office the problems in Iraq are going to go away is absurd. It appears this is what you're advocating with "getting involved." In case you didn't know, Republicans had a strong majority in both Houses of Congress but are likely going to lose the House in the coming election and will only hold a slim majority in the Senate. That is because people are "getting involved" in the election process in part because of the poor performance in Iraq.

Despite of the conspiracy bullshit a lot of Europeans seem to buy into, it is in Bush's political interest to do his best to try and resolve the Iraq situation and stop sectarian violence. Why? Because the GOP's success in midterm elections and the 2008 election depend on it, and the failures in Iraq are already having an impact on the party's election performance (as is evident in this election cycle). Yet things have not improved, and will not improve any time soon even with Democratic gains, because the current Iraq situation is very difficult to solve. The Bush Administration is to blame for getting us here, but the European "blame Bush" rhetoric is not going to resolve the problems we have now.

It is pretty obvious that you bitch about American policies at every opportunity, but have no clue whatsoever about how to resolve the Iraq situation yourself. Way to go. You need to come to the realization that what Bush has done is done. Even if a Democrat wins in 2008 and the party gets a majority in Congress, the problems in Iraq will continue to persist for a long time to come.

[seremtan]

so it's true what they say: foreign policy is just domestic policy by another name

btw the most obvious solution to the iraq situation is complete withdrawal of all occupying troops

(please don't tell me this will lead to civil war and chaos, or i might just laugh hysterically)

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

well he was one of the few people here in late 2002 and early 2003 saying not to invade and pointing out all the reasons why. That view was dismissed.

Now will you dismiss this solution? The U.S. and Britain must get out now. They are not helping and Iraq must now settle it's own destiny (the civil war). Occupying forces are a flashpoint for violence. They've retreated to Baghdad (see vietnam) but they are still targeted.

It's costng the people of your country a fortune and possibly a bright future while making Bush and Cheney and their family and friends / business partners millions of dollars.

You broke it but like Humpty Dumpty you can't fix it.

[GONNAFISTYA]

I vote in all local, state and federal elections. I read articles from CNN and the BBC daily. Heck, I even participated in a voter's drive a few years back.

That's great. I'm simply saying that more people need to do what you're doing before there's enough stink raised to force the politicians to do the public's bidding. You seem to be ignoring the fact that a shitload of people don't vote or pay attention to politics at all. Those are the people I'm talking about...they're the ones that need to get involved. That is how democracy works.

In case you didn't know, Republicans had a strong majority in both Houses of Congress but are likely going to lose the House in the coming election and will only hold a slim majority in the Senate. That is because people are "getting involved" in the election process in part because of the poor performance in Iraq.

That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. The more "getting involved" the better.

But here's a question for ya...you seem so confident that the Republifags will get booted this election....what will you do if they win and you suspect election fraud? Will you still "get involved"? Will your fellow countrymen still "get involved"? I guess if it ever came to that question, then that would be the real test in the citizenry's "getting involved" in democracy.

Yet things have not improved, and will not improve any time soon even with Democratic gains, because the current Iraq situation is very difficult to solve.

It is not "very difficult to solve". Get the fuck out now and the problem begins to fix itself. The reason things haven't improved is because you haven't given it a chance. A picked scab never heals.

The Bush Administration is to blame for getting us here, but the European "blame Bush" rhetoric is not going to resolve the problems we have now.

Yeah...don't point fingers.

Are you for real? The very act of Americans "getting involved" and demanding a full Iraqi withdrawl would go a million miles towards improving both the situation in Iraq and respect for Americans around the world. Are you truly blind to this prospect?

It is pretty obvious that you bitch about American policies at every opportunity, but have no clue whatsoever about how to resolve the Iraq situation yourself. Way to go.

Quit playing with plastic bags, you dipshit. The resolution to the Iraqi situation is staring you in the face. You just don't want to look.

You need to come to the realization that what Bush has done is done. Even if a Democrat wins in 2008 and the party gets a majority in Congress, the problems in Iraq will continue to persist for a long time to come.

Only if you and the rest of your citizens let them.

[KingManULTRA]

Get the fuck out now and the problem begins to fix itself.

In case you haven't noticed: Iraqis are killing each other. The amount of people actively pursuing American troops are a small minority of the total number of individuals participating in sectarian violence. This is evident by the fact that you have a road side bomb ever day or two that kills maybe 3 Americans, whereas upwards of a 100 Iraqis die from infighting amongst themselves every day. The amount of violence directed at America is a small fraction of the total. You incorrectly believe the American presence in Iraq is the main point of conflict, but the way in which Iraqis die, the number of religious and regional conflicts and the targets against which the vast majority of violence is directed do not agree with your point of view.

[GONNAFISTYA]

You incorrectly believe the American presence in Iraq is the main point of conflict, but the way in which Iraqis die, the number of religious and regional conflicts and the targets against which the vast majority of violence is directed do not agree with your point of view.

Fucking hell. You seem to be convinced it's hopeless and that nobody has thought about what can be done to improve the situation.

Just read this and get back to me.

P.S. I'd just like to mention that a simple thing such as getting Halliburton/KBR/Bechtel out of there and letting Iraqis get some jobs would do alot for the Iraqi's willingness to lay down arms and rebuild their country. There are shitloads of ways to improve Iraq...and "staying the course" isn't one of them.

[KingManULTRA]

Just read this and get back to me.

Page not found? Btw, searching for new ways to improve Iraq is very different from "getting the fuck out now."

[GONNAFISTYA]

Page not found?

They moved the page. Here it is:

Clicky

It was written back in May. One of their ideas is a gradual withdrawl through to 2007. Their "gradual withdrawl" idea is the only idea I disagree with in the paper because I think the idea is outdated and I feel the other solutions they present could benefit from the acceleration. All the other ones sound doable and reasonable (if not optimistic).

Btw, searching for new ways to improve Iraq is very different from "getting the fuck out now."

Drop the semantics and get back on point.

Getting the fuck out now is part of the solution...but it isn't the only aspect.

And - to be frank - why would you be so fucking retarded with regards to these three things:

1) You claim that unless someone can offer bulletproof solutions they aren't allowed to discuss problems and issues
2) You claim that I haven't brought forth any ideas
3) You dismiss all the ideas and arguements that I and others have shown you

For someone who bitches about no ideas you certainly don't offer a fucking thing to the discussion....including answering my questions.

Oh...and btw....do your own fucking research for "answers to the problem". It ain't that hard.

[Dave]

No matter what happens in Iraq, the Shi'a part will become a puppet state of Iran, the Sunni part will be a third world country and the Kurd part will piss off the Turks.

[Foo]

It's gonna make for some great sitcoms down the line.

[R00k]

No matter what happens in Iraq, the Shi'a part will become a puppet state of Iran, the Sunni part will be a third world country and the Kurd part will piss off the Turks.

Yep. Maybe even do more than piss off the Turks - there will eventually be serious fighting, maybe even a small war down the line because of it.

And another scary aspect: When it's all said and done, the Shia majority will be in control of Iraq's oil - and allied with Iran. This is probably what is scaring the administration the most right now. The saddest thing is that it's very obvious they have no fucking clue what is wrong with their plan up to this point - much less how to change the direction things are going.

The definition of incompetence.

[Foo]

[KingManULTRA]

Page not found?

They moved the page. Here it is:

Clicky

It was written back in May. One of their ideas is a gradual withdrawl through to 2007. Their "gradual withdrawl" idea is the only idea I disagree with in the paper because I think the idea is outdated and I feel the other solutions they present could benefit from the acceleration. All the other ones sound doable and reasonable (if not optimistic).

How can Iraqi military forces be sufficiently trained to sustain order in the country if the United States pulls out of Iraq within a year or two? Training Iraqi troops is already a centerpiece of the strategy being employed there and, despite of the full-scale efforts to train Iraqis, there is no way in hell that they will become self-sufficient anytime soon. And if the US pulls out of Iraq before that is done, the country will likely not sustain itself without a strong central government. How can you guarantee that with the sectarian violence in the region and no remaining police force the country will not completely collapse?

1) You claim that unless someone can offer bulletproof solutions they aren't allowed to discuss problems and issues

I have no idea what you are referring to here. Please quote the part where I said anything like this.

2) You claim that I haven't brought forth any ideas

When I asked you what your ideas were, the only thing you said is that people "should get involved." That's it. You didn't bring forth any ideas at that point in discussion.

3) You dismiss all the ideas and arguements that I and others have shown you

You said people "should get involved" and then posted a broken link.

do your own fucking research for "answers to the problem". It ain't that hard.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

So you feel that the US must remain to train the Iraqi police force? May I ask if there are any other imperative reasons for the US to stay in your opinion?

[Ryoki]

At this point, any course of action will have a negative outcome. It's only a matter of damage control now, to find out what's the least shitty 'solution' for everyone involved.

My personal plan for peace: dissolve the state of Iraq and divide the spoils between it's neighbours. Withdraw all Coalition forces immediately, fascilitate UN backing for the division. Treat it like North Korea and South Korea in the fifties, only much more complex, with more players involved.

It will still mean years of chaos and ethnic cleansing, but at least the people occupying the various regions will have the support of certain groups instead of being the common enemy.

[busetibi]

young girl with a bomb belt flashing the peace sign :icon26:

[Ryoki]

V for victory!

[busetibi]

yer could be,

[GONNAFISTYA]

How can Iraqi military forces be sufficiently trained to sustain order in the country if the United States pulls out of Iraq within a year or two? Training Iraqi troops is already a centerpiece of the strategy being employed there and, despite of the full-scale efforts to train Iraqis, there is no way in hell that they will become self-sufficient anytime soon. And if the US pulls out of Iraq before that is done, the country will likely not sustain itself without a strong central government. How can you guarantee that with the sectarian violence in the region and no remaining police force the country will not completely collapse?

I'm not gonna sit here and argue the finer points of White House rhetoric or changing justifications.

Besides...if I had all the answers I'd be sitting on a beach earning 20 percent. Perhaps you can come up with a better idea?

Throughout most of the last 3+ years I have indeed bitched about Iraq and I have indeed posted what I think should be done about it....that is no secret to anyone here who suffers through (or bothers to read) one of my many "anti-American" rants.

1) You claim that unless someone can offer bulletproof solutions they aren't allowed to discuss problems and issues

I have no idea what you are referring to here. Please quote the part where I said anything like this.

Here's what you said on page one:

It is pretty obvious that you bitch about American policies at every opportunity, but have no clue whatsoever about how to resolve the Iraq situation yourself.

I'll assume you've never seen my posts on Iraq, so I'll assume that you assume that I have no clue whatsoever about how to resolve the Iraq situation myself. I have lots of ideas on how to resolve it...but - sadly - I'll never get a chance to solve the Iraq situation myself because I'm not in the White House. Trust me...your country (as well as Iraq) would change overnight if I had that capability.

All I'm saying is that I took your comment as a "put up or shut up" stance.

You said people "should get involved" and then posted a broken link.

Oh please. Did it occur to you to read the title of the pdf it was linked to and do your own search?

...do your own fucking thinking for "answers to the problem". It ain't that hard.

[seremtan]

Ember?

[Foo]

Ember? [/quote]

I was beginning to think nobody would get it =)

[l0g1c]

assuming they can actually get those words out mouths crammed with burgers and pie

*throws his burger down in disgust* :icon33:

[l0g1c]

Ember?

*excuse to post porn*

[lvlshot]http://members.cox.net/rei-ginsei/09.jpg[/lvlshot]

[Captain]

[l0g1c]

I know, right? It's like if you wanted to fly a plane from one side of her boob to the other, you'd need to take a curved flightpath for maximum efficiency or somethin'.