I had to start teaching evolution today...

[Bdw3]

Actualy the Peppered Moth study b.a is thinking about was staged by Bernard Kettlewell ...

And Creationists just love using stuff like that as ammo for their crusade.

[Dukester]

I guess it took awhile for the Copernican revolution to really take hold...so hopefully one day, one gloriously fine day, I will be able to use the "E" word without invoking the rage of parents and students alike...

I made a big distinction between "grown up science" vs. "intelligent design" (which I called the strategy of intelletual surrender) and "creation science" (which I called an oxymoron).

If you believe in evolution or not it seems like you'd want to know what it is you don't believe in!

Maybe if you just taught it as part of the curriculum, you wouldn't have so much resistance to learning. You sound as if you hold them in as much contempt as they do you and that's no way to get through to a bunch of teenagers or kids. You're not there to convert you're there to teach, right?

I'm just replying from reading your post so I don't know how you are teaching, but that's the impression I got.

[4g3nt_Smith]

Actualy the Peppered Moth study b.a is thinking about was staged by Bernard Kettlewell ...

And Creationists just love using stuff like that as ammo for their crusade.

My extremely limited scientific knowledge says that the moth study should in no logical way help their archaic belief. How do they justify that an almost textbook-perfect case for evolution could mean the god had a hand in an organism's development?

[Bdw3]

staged

faked, fraud, nonreplicable


Anyway, my favorite thing to do when arguing with a creationist is bringing up our evolutionary leftovers, the appendix, wisdom teeth, and the remains of a tail…

There is also an extra muscle in the arm and one in the leg that some people have and others do not. I remember reading about it in an issue of Discover a few years back. I can’t remember at all the names of the muscles, and I’m not having any luck googling, maybe tnf knows?
I’ll have to look for that issue…

[-Replicant-]

i'm pretty sure that it wasn't staged....i've read that in almost every bio/evolution book i've found....but it could be staged I guess

[Bdw3]

i'm pretty sure that it wasn't staged....i've read that in almost every bio/evolution book i've found....but it could be staged I guess

Exactly why they like to use it as ammo.

[tnf]

staged

faked, fraud, nonreplicable


Anyway, my favorite thing to do when arguing with a creationist is bringing up our evolutionary leftovers, the appendix, wisdom teeth, and the remains of a tail…

There is also an extra muscle in the arm and one in the leg that some people have and others do not. I remember reading about it in an issue of Discover a few years back. I can’t remember at all the names of the muscles, and I’m not having any luck googling, maybe tnf knows?
I’ll have to look for that issue…

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601_1.html

Response.

[Bdw3]

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601_1.html

Response.

Thanks for clearing that one up :icon14:

[tnf]

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601_1.html

Response.

Thanks for clearing that one up :icon14:

Science wins again.

[hate.]

human noses.

[werldhed]

tnf, I'd suggest making it clear to the kids that you have no intention of dictating what they should believe, and that you're only there to present the evidence. Remind them that they're in a science class and they're free to debate creationism in a theology class. In fact, I'd even suggest offering to go to one of their bible studies or religious ed classes or something to discuss creationism, as long as they're willing to listen with an open mind to what you have to say. Just make sure they know that a science class is not the place for religion, whether it's correct or not.

Also, you could compare creationism to other church teachings: such as the science behind contraception and reproduction. Make a note that even though you can teach these things, it doesn't dictate whether the church is right or wrong. It simply presents the facts.

And I like the idea of challenging them to reconcile their faith with science. Reminds me of a science teacher I had in high school that asked us all to write a paper stating whether we believed in creationism or evolution, and to argue why. He didn't grade them based on what you believed, but only if you showed you had thought it through and could argue your side competently. I was the only student who pointed out that the question was too narrow and that a religious person could adhere to both without denouncing their own faith, thus believing BOTH. He gave me an 'A' for the paper. :icon25:
Anyway, good luck with it.

BTW...are you teaching molecular evolution or macroevoltion or
speciation or what, specifically?

edit... heh, I just realized how pretentious I sound offering you teaching advice. Wtf do I know about it? :icon32:

[werldhed]

staged

faked, fraud, nonreplicable


Anyway, my favorite thing to do when arguing with a creationist is bringing up our evolutionary leftovers, the appendix, wisdom teeth, and the remains of a tail…

There is also an extra muscle in the arm and one in the leg that some people have and others do not. I remember reading about it in an issue of Discover a few years back. I can’t remember at all the names of the muscles, and I’m not having any luck googling, maybe tnf knows?
I’ll have to look for that issue…

You're right about those muscles. I can't remember which one it is, but I think it's one of the flexors or abductors of the fingers. I'm pretty sure it's in the palm of the hand.

[Kills On Site]

This is the same country where my fellow classmates wore "Save a deer, kill a queer" t-shirts yesterday, on the Nat'l day of Silence to protest ridicule for being homoesexual.

Now I understand what the rednecks mean with "god created adam and eve not adam and steve" but i dont get the t-shirts promoting cannibalism. I bet all the people who wore shirts dirogatory to non-heterosexuals have a 2.5 GPA tops. I fail to see the lack of aceptence for people who differ from them. I almost want to nazi salute the rednecks and say "Fuhrer sollen Sie Aufstieg wieder" meaning Leader (Hitler) Shall Rise Again. I feel I should leave this subject be, as I get pretty pissed off about the bigots.

[rep]

I always thought, if evolution is a fact, how come there aren't loads of half evolved things running around? Does it not work like that?

You're using mankind as your example of perfection when we're far from it.

You should know why we all have nipples, so that tells you just how inefficient and evolutionarily unfledged we are.

[zeeko]

i'm not really sure i totally believe in evolution... why are humans SOOOO much different than all other animals? why can't i have a philosophical conversation with my dog? and i still don't believe your answer for "if evolution really happens howcome there aren't any in-betweeners" you would think that there would be much closer relations between species ... but what we see is that most animals are far different from eachother IMHO, but please i am open to new ideas and i would love to hear your opinions.

[zeeko]

and the problem is that i am a christian and i love science, and i am just "torn between two lovers" when i want to believe in evolution yet i do want to believe in a higher power and an afterlife (God).

[R00k]

The reason there aren't in-betweeners is because they aren't good enough and they die. That's evolution.

At some point there was likely a frog with gills that couldn't breathe on land, but it didn't last very long.

At one point there was probably a human that was completely covered with hair, but it didn't last very long.

The ones that could survive did -- turtles, amphibians, platypus, alligators. Everything about these animals says "survivor" in its own habitat. And surviving is why they are still around.

[R00k]

If there was an elephant with wings, or a giraffe that could climb trees, it would DISPROVE evolution; not prove it.

[Hannibal]

The idea of 'creationism' being taught in a science class would've been found utterly laughable back when I was in high school. And I grew up in your standard small town: 6 churches, 1 general store, and 3 bars.

It's always a bit shocking to me how the fringes dominant much of the public discourse in this country.

[4days]

was watching this last night:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/program ... neyoflife/

not a fan of telly - but this is really good stuff. looking for somewhere to aquire the first episode now.

was explaining parts of evolution, talking about the first things to get eyes, and jaws, and bones and then how sharks just owned the shit out of everything (specifically one called megalodon that was bigger than a couple of school buses and could eat more than a ton of food in one session) - obviously from the days when mother nature had an astronomical defence budget.

personally i'd rather take the word of some chirpy academic who talks to dolphins, feeds sharks by hand and produces reasonable evidence than some savage belligerent arsehole who's been dead for hundreds of years .

[Ryoki]

tnf, I'd suggest making it clear to the kids that you have no intention of dictating what they should believe, and that you're only there to present the evidence. Remind them that they're in a science class and they're free to debate creationism in a theology class. In fact, I'd even suggest offering to go to one of their bible studies or religious ed classes or something to discuss creationism, as long as they're willing to listen with an open mind to what you have to say. Just make sure they know that a science class is not the place for religion, whether it's correct or not.

Yerr. :icon14: :icon14:

[Shmee]

This is the same country where my fellow classmates wore "Save a deer, kill a queer" t-shirts yesterday, on the Nat'l day of Silence to protest ridicule for being homoesexual.

That kind of shocked me too. First because I'd never heard of that Day of Silence whathaveyou (and I'm gay ffs). Second because I heard about kids wearing shirts with those same catchy slogans in school. I can't beleive that kind of shit is allowed. I have a teacher friend who says he tried to curb the use of the word gay as an epithet in his classroom but stopped when he realized how wide-spread it was (keep in mind we graduated from High School in 1998 - it just wasn't used then). He was basically afraid he'd be labeled queer by the entire student body and not taken seriously, which I can understand completely.

I look at things like this, the pushing of "Creation Science," and the congressional dismantling of the judiciary and I realize how rapidly this country is becomming a cultural wasteland...

[werldhed]

i'm not really sure i totally believe in evolution... why are humans SOOOO much different than all other animals? why can't i have a philosophical conversation with my dog? and i still don't believe your answer for "if evolution really happens howcome there aren't any in-betweeners" you would think that there would be much closer relations between species ... but what we see is that most animals are far different from eachother IMHO, but please i am open to new ideas and i would love to hear your opinions.

Well, we really aren't that far off from other mammals. Consider that we can transplant the organs of pigs into humans; and why do chimps and humans look so similar, but gorrillas and lemurs look so different?

Evolution doesn't work by having one species progress forward forever through time, stopping occassionally to drop off a new species along the way. It is divergent. There was at one time an "in between" species for chimps and humans, but we went in different directions from it. In the same way, we are probably the "in between" species for future humans. Some humans may diverge in one direction, some in another. In a few million years, those different types of humans could be as different as cats and dogs. (well, maybe if we didn't do such a good job of slowing evolution in our own species, but that's a different matter...)

[Fender]

...well, maybe if we didn't do such a good job of slowing evolution in our own species, but that's a different matter...)

I've thought of that before. Our modern medicine could really end up hurting our species in the long run. If we ever perfect genetic engineering and allow it to be used on humans, that's a different story. Meanwhile, all sorts of people who wouldn't normally live until reproductive age are growing up and having kids. Our gene pool gets weaker and weaker with every passing generation. Of course diet, excersize and lifestyle are major contributors to our failing health, but you have to wonder how much of the cancer problem is due to people with really bad genes living "longer that they should."

[SplishSplash]

So, tnf, do you teach SexEd?

Cause I just happened to read this article:

Oral sex and SexEd