Bill Maher - Religulous

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Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

lulz, I'll get to all of you needy anti-religion whiners in a few, sorry. I didn't realize I'd hurt so many butts. :(

But I'll at least address your last, GFY - that's exactly the problem. You act like the other side refuses to see reason, while you sit there and presume that every single one of them doesn't want to have a rational discussion and the whole time you discuss people you suffer "Mental fatigue" and the urge to kill them with heavy things. That doesn't sound to me like someone who's willing to even sit at the table, let alone someone who's ready for a rational discussion, and I don't think that you're even remotely alone. All that Dawkins and his homies are spewing out is exactly what you want to hear, and you eat it up with all of the excited nature of the recently converted. :(

It's shit like the blind acceptance of Dawkins that makes me think that Science really has become a religion. Not that all science is religious, and not that science doesn't exist without religious fervor - just that a whole lot of people are willing to cling blindly to what they think are "Scientific ideals" just to prove that they're right and others are wrong. :(
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

Grudge wrote:I agree that Dawkins doesn't need to be such a dick about it, but my experiences with trying to discuss religion with religious people are much like bashing my head against the wall.

Every single rational argument sooner or later fall apart when faced with the supernatural/irrational core of religion.
Absolutely. My only problem with that is the idea that people need to be rational all the time. I don't even think it's possible, let alone the idea of it being desirable. If someone wants to have irrational beliefs which don't affect others, what's the problem?

Mind you, I'm not signing off on the bastards who have hijacked the country. I don't think it's cool for people to use their religion against people. But if not religion, they'll use something. I'm against inequality and fucked up behavior, but I'm just not foolish enough to blame religion for it when there's plenty of it once you take religion out of the equation.
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GONNAFISTYA
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by GONNAFISTYA »

Fucking hell you are indeed retarded....and have no idea when someone has their tongue in their cheek. Yeah...I always think of dropping heavy things on people...it'll be an olympic sport in China very soon.

gg retard...now everyone's laughing at you.

I act like the other side refuses to see reason precisely because the other side refuses to see reason and be rational. While you sit there and tell me I'm full of shit you might even try to argue that my lack of faith is faith in itself?

lollers.

While that peanut brain of yours is awash in endorphins right now, don't pat yourself on the back. You have nothing to do with my feelings on this matter. My point was that a small part of me secretly wishes Bill Maher's movie does NOTHING BUT make fun of stupid...er...crazy people. But obviously I'm hoping for something more. :p
Last edited by GONNAFISTYA on Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

Plan B wrote:Okay, sounds a bit like a troll, so let me save you the trouble;

a) religions bring people together
b) give comfort to those who seek 'Answers'
c) generally preach kindness

Apart from the fact that those bases are pretty well covered by a) other institutions that satisfy the intrinsic human need to belong to something, b) *real* (yes, scientific) efforts to find 'Answers' and c) common decency, that would be good and well, until the devout decide that it would be best for everyone else to share their beliefs.

This need to 'enlighten' can get pretty aggressive, and just begs to be counterbalanced.
Of course, this sometimes results in what some might call 'God-bashing', but by those whose beliefs are strong and rigid, most rational arguments too easily get disqualified as such.
Thanks for answering with shit I would never have said and then arguing against it, you saved me a lot of time that would normally have been taken up with replying to you and not assuming you're a fucking moron.
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

GONNAFISTYA wrote:Fucking hell you are indeed retarded....and have no idea when someone has their tongue in their cheek. Yeah...I always think of dropping heavy things on people...it'll be an olympic sport in China very soon.

gg retard...now everyone's laughing at you.

I act like the other side refuses to see reason precisely because the other side refuses to see reason and be rational. While you sit there and tell me I'm full of shit you might even try to argue that my lack of faith is faith in itself?

lollers.

While that peanut brain of yours is awash in endorphins right now, don't pat yourself on the back. You have nothing to do with my feelings on this matter. My point was that a small part of me secretly wishes Bill Maher's movie does NOTHING BUT make fun of stupid...er...crazy people. But obviously I'm hoping for something more. :p
Oh wow, you really don't want to drop heavy things on people? My God, I must be incredibly ignorant and not at all using your same tongue-in-cheek framing of the discussion!

You fucking moron. The point is that you're not willing to discuss it rationally, not that I really think that you actually, literally want to drop tons of matter on people you dislike. You moron. Why don't you read through the entire post again, this time without being a nitpicking retard?
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GONNAFISTYA
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by GONNAFISTYA »

Turing wrote:
Grudge wrote:I agree that Dawkins doesn't need to be such a dick about it, but my experiences with trying to discuss religion with religious people are much like bashing my head against the wall.

Every single rational argument sooner or later fall apart when faced with the supernatural/irrational core of religion.
Absolutely. My only problem with that is the idea that people need to be rational all the time. I don't even think it's possible, let alone the idea of it being desirable. If someone wants to have irrational beliefs which don't affect others, what's the problem?

Mind you, I'm not signing off on the bastards who have hijacked the country. I don't think it's cool for people to use their religion against people. But if not religion, they'll use something. I'm against inequality and fucked up behavior, but I'm just not foolish enough to blame religion for it when there's plenty of it once you take religion out of the equation.
So what is your point then? You're talking in circles.
Big Kahuna Burger
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Big Kahuna Burger »

LOL, movie looks hilarious. gg bill :up:
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GONNAFISTYA
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by GONNAFISTYA »

Turing wrote: Oh wow, you really don't want to drop heavy things on people? My God, I must be incredibly ignorant and not at all using your same tongue-in-cheek framing of the discussion!

You fucking moron. The point is that you're not willing to discuss it rationally, not that I really think that you actually, literally want to drop tons of matter on people you dislike. You moron. Why don't you read through the entire post again, this time without being a nitpicking retard?
Fucking christ you are one stupid individual.
Big Kahuna Burger
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Big Kahuna Burger »

also, ITT: old people fight
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

R00k wrote:
Turing wrote:Oh balls. There are plenty of religious people who aren't complete fuckwits. Blaming people like Stein on religion is as stupid as... as blaming Hitler on evolution and atheism, actually. :(

Religion has plenty of bright spots when it's done right, but the people who do it right are pretty low profile.
LOL. So blaming a movie advocating religion in schools on religion, is the same as blaming the holocaust on evolution.

That's some stellar logic right there.

It also sounds like you think our dialog on religion was just fine before Dawkins, Dennett and Harris arrived on the scene. Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding you?

Also, have you ever lived in the bible belt?
Blaming people who take the ideas of religion, warp and twist it into stupid pseudoscience like Intelligent Design, and then attempt to push that onto the populace is very similar to people who take the ideas of religion, warp and twist them into stupid pseudoscience like Eugenics, and then attempt to push that on the populace. Yes. Read both sentences aloud if you like.

And no, I don't think that's the case at all. I absolutely think that it is important to have more of a dialog about what religion is, what religion isn't, and how to fix those religious people who act in a tyrranical and retarded manner about their religion. I just don't think that "Nanny nanny poo poo, we're atheists so we're smarter" is opening up a dialog.

And I have been there a few times and will be moving down there next year, so I'm at least passingly familiar. And yes, plenty of people there Do It Wrong. That's nothing to condemn all of religion for, though.
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

GONNAFISTYA wrote:
Turing wrote:Absolutely. My only problem with that is the idea that people need to be rational all the time. I don't even think it's possible, let alone the idea of it being desirable. If someone wants to have irrational beliefs which don't affect others, what's the problem?

Mind you, I'm not signing off on the bastards who have hijacked the country. I don't think it's cool for people to use their religion against people. But if not religion, they'll use something. I'm against inequality and fucked up behavior, but I'm just not foolish enough to blame religion for it when there's plenty of it once you take religion out of the equation.
So what is your point then? You're talking in circles.
Sorry if I'm not being clear enough for you. My point is that shutting down discussion and presuming that you're smarter because of your beliefs all being based on "rationality" completely misses the point and makes you look like a moran, especially when you consider the number of things which you believe that you yourself can't prove, but which has been proven for you by scientists.

If you are willing to accept things which you can't prove, then you are willing to dip your toes in the irrational. Given that there are so many answers to which we don't and may never have the answers to, it seems rather logical to be irrational from time to time.
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

bikkeldesnikkel wrote:That's quite a statement, the amount of misinformation provided by expelled is enormous, where do you think the misinformation on that scale is going to come from in this movie?
By looking at recent history at all? Moore and Stein and anyone else who has been in the mood to make a movie like this has always presented as many of the facts in as warped a manner as possible.
bikkeldesnikkel wrote:Hm, I don't agree. Talking religious belief on these terms is too broad a perspective. Religious belief can mean practically anything. We're talking religious belief in the presence of contrary evidence and in the abscence of evidence. A well informed/reasoned belief is i.m.o. always better than a belief without evidence/reasoning to back it up.
It's always more rational, I will give you. And there are plenty of harmful irrational beliefs, though there are plenty of harmful rational beliefs. But I don't think that being reasonable is always better, to be sure. Reason can only take you so far.
Plan B
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Plan B »

I see it's defcon 1 in Devil's Advocate City.
Shame.
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

I understand getting upset because I didn't want to reply to your straw man stupidity, but you don't have to embarrass yourself even further as a result. :(

And for the record, I'd be God's advocate in this one. :clownboat:
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scared?
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by scared? »

Turing wrote:Except you can. I have had plenty of rational discussion about people's religious beliefs.
lol...no u haven't...
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

You aren't even capable of having a rational discussion about toothpaste, so I'm unsurprised. :(
scared?
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by scared? »

so it's official...turing is unfixably retarded...
R00k
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by R00k »

Turing wrote:Blaming people who take the ideas of religion, warp and twist it into stupid pseudoscience like Intelligent Design, and then attempt to push that onto the populace is very similar to people who take the ideas of religion, warp and twist them into stupid pseudoscience like Eugenics, and then attempt to push that on the populace. Yes. Read both sentences aloud if you like.
Except that the holy text of the former explicitly encourages such (after all, their goal is nothing more than a well-organized mission trip, only it's targeting our government institutions that strictly forbid it, as opposed to poor, 3rd world peoples whose souls obviously need to be saved), while the doctrines of the latter do not. I think that's an important distinction.
And no, I don't think that's the case at all. I absolutely think that it is important to have more of a dialog about what religion is, what religion isn't, and how to fix those religious people who act in a tyrranical and retarded manner about their religion. I just don't think that "Nanny nanny poo poo, we're atheists so we're smarter" is opening up a dialog.
There is no mechanism in organized religion (at least the major ones here) that allows for this. The best way I can imagine to "fix" those people, is by not placing value on beliefs that have no basis in reality.
When our society grants unconditional and automatic respect to anyone's religious beliefs, no matter what they are, then it paves the way for people who think that Katrina was caused by a gay pride parade in New Orleans to be given airtime on national television, and to be accorded the same respect as professional meteorologists.
And I have been there a few times and will be moving down there next year, so I'm at least passingly familiar. And yes, plenty of people there Do It Wrong. That's nothing to condemn all of religion for, though.
I'm certainly not condemning all religion - not for their sake or anyone else's. But the tone of your posts gave me the impression that you think the crazy fanatics are a tiny minority of religious people, simply because sane and rational religious people don't seek out media attention that allows them to hurl their sermons at anyone within broadcast range. This may be partially true, but in large part it is a function of your environment. I see the most divisive, hate-filled rhetoric on windshield-sized transparencies on my way to work every week. These people are not being ridiculed by their own churches for being lunatic hate-mongers - they are being slapped on the back by everyone else who is in The Club.

Practically speaking, how do you think this kind of behavior can be "fixed," without pointing out the fallacies that its justifications rest upon?
scared?
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by scared? »

the crazy fanatics r the only true religious ppl...moderates r idiots...they pick and choose what to believe...which they do to keep on believing the stoopid things their religions espouse...which means they will burn in hell...but they pick and choose not to believe that too...lol?...
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

R00k wrote:Except that the holy text of the former explicitly encourages such (after all, their goal is nothing more than a well-organized mission trip, only it's targeting our government institutions that strictly forbid it, as opposed to poor, 3rd world peoples whose souls obviously need to be saved), while the doctrines of the latter do not. I think that's an important distinction.
If you can find me a single spot in the Bible that explicitly suggests that one should lie in order to convert people, I will more than happily concede your point. If you can't, then it's sorta dumb. :(
R00k wrote:There is no mechanism in organized religion (at least the major ones here) that allows for this. The best way I can imagine to "fix" those people, is by not placing value on beliefs that have no basis in reality.
When our society grants unconditional and automatic respect to anyone's religious beliefs, no matter what they are, then it paves the way for people who think that Katrina was caused by a gay pride parade in New Orleans to be given airtime on national television, and to be accorded the same respect as professional meteorologists.

Again; I don't think that hatred and imposing your beliefs on others is correct. That's why I'm against people trying to tear down religious beliefs, actually; I think that trying to impose why your beliefs are 'correct' and those of other people are stupid is the entire flaw in this system. I don't think that shouting at homosexuals makes any more sense that shouting at religious people. I also don't think that shouting at homosexuals fits in with their holy book.
R00k wrote:I'm certainly not condemning all religion - not for their sake or anyone else's. But the tone of your posts gave me the impression that you think the crazy fanatics are a tiny minority of religious people, simply because sane and rational religious people don't seek out media attention that allows them to hurl their sermons at anyone within broadcast range. This may be partially true, but in large part it is a function of your environment. I see the most divisive, hate-filled rhetoric on windshield-sized transparencies on my way to work every week. These people are not being ridiculed by their own churches for being lunatic hate-mongers - they are being slapped on the back by everyone else who is in The Club.

Practically speaking, how do you think this kind of behavior can be "fixed," without pointing out the fallacies that its justifications rest upon?
I think that it should be pointed out that their God specifically told them not to be judgmental and that it's not their place to act like complete fuckwits. I think that's a much more rational and useful argument than "Religin sux and dont maek no sinse lulz," which seems to be the keystone of Maher's argument. :(
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

scared? wrote:the crazy fanatics r the only true religious ppl...moderates r idiots...they pick and choose what to believe...which they do to keep on believing the stoopid things their religions espouse...which means they will burn in hell...but they pick and choose not to believe that too...lol?...
Have you ever even -met- reality? Just curious. :(
Turing
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by Turing »

GONNAFISTYA wrote:While that peanut brain of yours is awash in endorphins right now, don't pat yourself on the back. You have nothing to do with my feelings on this matter. My point was that a small part of me secretly wishes Bill Maher's movie does NOTHING BUT make fun of stupid...er...crazy people. But obviously I'm hoping for something more. :p
I actually managed to watch the trailer, which confirmed my suspicions pretty hard. I mean come on, the fucking movie's name is a portmanteau of Religion and Ridiculous. How can you hope for anything like a dialog from this? If you really like drinking kool-aid then I guess it sounds like a great flick. I actually like documentaries to teach me something instead of telling me what I already know to be true, but I guess those don't sell well enough to get Maher interested. :(
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GONNAFISTYA
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by GONNAFISTYA »

lol

*waits for Turing to return to tell us that wanting to have a rational discussion is irrational because being rational isn't really a good thing and it's impossible to be rational when rational people try to be rational and that up is down, left is right and that none of us can be rational about irrational topics* :dork:

"God's advocate"? lol
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GONNAFISTYA
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by GONNAFISTYA »

lol

Turing's "proof that he's right" is by judging an entire movie on a trailer.

And it also points out that he argued up and down the walls against something he'd never seen yet.

Yeah....rational thinking to the core.
scared?
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Re: Bill Maher - Religulous

Post by scared? »

turing is possibly dumber than religious ppl...
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