The psycho who decapitated someone on the Greyhound bus...

[Dr_Watson]

its pretty cheap in china where they go for the bullet to the head and kick them in a hole method.

I thought China was going the mobile organ harvesting van of death route.

i'm sure selling the organs and tissue certainly helps recoup lost money on legal proceedings.
cheap executions and profitable disposal.

[Ryoki]

Indeed, a psychiatrist they would be. But with the data/theories we have now, being a psychiatrist isn't that much. I'd hope they'd also be psychologists in order to further improve/expand/add to theories, especially because these cases seem very fit for that. Them being involuntarily submitted allows for much experiments without the usual needed consent (I'm not talking about inhumane experiments).

And yes, I would hope they'd realise that it's too dangerous to set a person like this free, but you never know. For example the mishaps with 'releasing' TBSers (Dutch name for the criminally insane) shows that they may be too confident in their ability to assess the hazard of releasing them. The brain is much too complex to be able to diagnose it with indirect methods like behavioral analysis, and until we have more direct methods that provide for much needed assurance in these dangerous cases, releasing them shouldn't really be an option imo.

Oh i absolutely agree. Certainly have grave doubts about the system we have in place here, it seems to go wrong once every so often and an innocent person gets killed/maimed/raped/all three. But it's still better than simply killing all the violent crazies or putting them in a regular jail, no good could possibly come of that...

There's just a 'risk to society' vs 'empathy with and freedom of an individual' at play here.

Fact is, he's proven to be capable of these acts, so should never be allowed back into society again, regardless of his state of mind at the time.

You can then argue whether the 'humane thing' is to outright kill him and erase this threat to society, or to 'treat' him, but treat him to become what? A better person who swears he'll never do it again? And then what? Set him free?

Nah, of course you don't set him free, ever again. But why not try to treat him? Maybe you'll learn something new, maybe not... maybe it's all very pointless, but that's not a reason not to try...

[bikkeldesnikkel]

Oh i absolutely agree. Certainly have grave doubts about the system we have in place here, it seems to go wrong once every so often and an innocent person gets killed/maimed/raped/all three. But it's still better than simply killing all the violent crazies or putting them in a regular jail, no good could possibly come of that...

Oh no doubt, I'm all for putting them in a seperate institution so that we might learn from it. But as for actual 'treatment', that's a long ways away for now as I see it.

Nah, of course you don't set him free, ever again. But why not try to treat him? Maybe you'll learn something new, maybe not... maybe it's all very pointless, but that's not a reason not to try...

Indeed, but as I've said, it should be used more from the viewpoint of learning than actually believing you'll be able to treat them (unless a sure-fire cure is found for specific cases, still, I don't see that happening in the near future).

[Tormentius]

Oh no doubt, I'm all for putting them in a seperate institution so that we might learn from it. But as for actual 'treatment', that's a long ways away for now as I see it.

It depends entirely on the mental illness being discussed. Schizophrenia cannot be cured but with the use of therapy and medication it can be held in check which can enable the person able to function normally in society. In this case, Li suffered from a schizophrenic delusion and was convinced that unless he dismembered him the victim would "come back to life and kill him". He also believed that if he did not kill the victim he would be immediately killed. Keep in mind that when operating under this type of delusion the voices he heard seemed absolutely real to him and the compulsion to follow the directions of his auditory hallucinations was overwhelming. It is not as cut and dried as a murder committed in anger or even as easily understood as the motives of serial killers.

None of that absolves him though. There is definitely an element of responsibility he will bear which includes indefinite institutionalization, being medicated, and extensive work with medical professionals. He is definitely sick but his sickness is very real and not merely an excuse as some here seem to think. If people read up a little more on schizophrenia the bizzare nature of this case becomes a little more clear. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is also worth watching for a good example of the the delusions people suffering from this go through.

At the end of the day, society couldn't put Li in any worse hell than the one he resides in now within his own mind. He is now medicated and in this sane state he is able to reflect and feel the guilt, horror, and shame of his actions.

[bikkeldesnikkel]

It depends entirely on the mental illness being discussed. Schizophrenia cannot be cured but with the use of therapy and medication it can be held in check which can enable the person able to function normally in society.

Yes, agreed, there are some cases in which the cause of mental illness seems straightforward. Still I contest(appropriate word here?) that because of the sheer complexity of the brain's inner workings, we should be hesitant to diagnose the (relatively) more simple causations like schizophrenia as the only or main cause for his dangerous behaviour. We know very little about how the brain actually works, so even though we might be able to put a 'stop' to his schizophrenia we shouldn't feel as if this person isn't dangerous anymore.

[Peenyuh]

Psycho-babble. The causes for someone refusing to overcome human instinctual response are not rooted in the ethereal. I've been diagnosed with two "disorders" that, when people hear them mentioned, send shivers up spines. What keeps me on an even keel, is not meds, counseling, or therapy. It's the awareness of myself, a knowledge of my surroundings, and a genuine caring for the existence of other people. If you don't have these tools by the time you're able to interact in society, you should be separated from society. The distinction lay in those who have been neglected into their state and those who've bitterly chosen it. Our responsibility is with the former. Institutionalization seems reasonable. The latter should be destroyed.

[DRuM]

the evil scum that pull knives on lone teenage women and gangs of thugs caving dads' heads in, in front of their kids at the end of their fucking driveway over nothing deserve nothing less that a bullet to the face.

I think compulsory national service should be introduced. I'm pretty sure it would sort out a lot of teenagers, probably substantially reducing the epidemic amount of knife and gun crime, drug abuse and general violence. Everything is too easy and relaxed these days, and there are an awful lot of shitty parents who shouldn't have the right to have children. It's no wonder kids are out of control.

[Tormentius]

Psycho-babble. The causes for someone refusing to overcome human instinctual response are not rooted in the ethereal.

Have you ever heard the saying "its better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"? Consider that before posting on the subject of mental disorders again.

I think compulsory national service should be introduced.

I've been wishing they would do that here in Canada for a long time. It would have a lot of positive benefits by giving youth skills, teaching them work ethic, and helping to develop a sense of direction. Does anyone who posts here come from a country with mandatory service? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

[Peenyuh]

Have you ever heard the saying "its better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"? Consider that before posting on the subject of mental disorders again.

You have no idea what I know about mental disorders, most especially those I alluded to. Whether, or not, anyone thinks I'm a fool is irrelevant. If you ignore a contribution by someone who has experience with something, that makes you the fool. Agree or disagree. That's part of the practice of discussion. Flinging insults in a serious discussion is pointless.

[Tormentius]

You have no idea what I know about mental disorders, most especially those I alluded to. Whether, or not, anyone thinks I'm a fool is irrelevant. If you ignore a contribution by someone who has experience with something, that makes you the fool. Agree or disagree. That's part of the practice of discussion. Flinging insults in a serious discussion is pointless.

We're discussing a proven disorder with tangible behavioural and brain chemistry markers. You then state that mental disorders such as schizophrenia are based in the ethereal and only need self-awareness to keep in check and expect to be taken seriously? Thats not going to happen.

[Peenyuh]

Bipolar is also one that displays these markers. I don't really display my thoughts well, so I will say that the ethereal I was speaking of goes toward what we actually know of these markers. It's already been stated that we don't know as much as we should about the brain. We can look at behavior as a tangible. I present a point of view from a patients stand point. The chemical markers were what catalyzed the diagnosis. Because I can function normally, (and despite everything known and asserted about these disorders) and I can still recognize right or wrong, I find it difficult to believe that someone might "lose control" of their actions. Fugue states and blackouts are an excuse. Applicable in some instances, but not as much as is custom. No matter your frame of mind, at any given time, YOU still make the choice of action.

[LawL]

Have you ever heard the saying "its better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"? Consider that before posting on the subject of mental disorders again.

If peenyuh was to actually take your advice, he'd never be able to post anything ever again.

[4days]

Because I can function normally, (and despite everything known and asserted about these disorders) and I can still recognize right or wrong, I find it difficult to believe that someone might "lose control" of their actions.

classic psychopath. it'd suck to be sitting next to you on a bus when you 'recognized right from wrong'.

[Peenyuh]

Because I can function normally, (and despite everything known and asserted about these disorders) and I can still recognize right or wrong, I find it difficult to believe that someone might "lose control" of their actions.

classic psychopath. it'd suck to be sitting next to you on a bus when you 'recognized right from wrong'.

Already been there, buddy. I stand by the part you quoted. I am a peaceful man now. My love and understanding of humanity has only grown.

[LawL]

You're a fucking moron, period.

[Peenyuh]

You're a fucking period, moron.

[LawL]

Thanks for proving my point, as always.

[Massive Quasars]

Peenyuh, I think you're allowing a few inconsistencies to seep into your thinking on this subject.

The mind depends on functional processes based in brain structure (further dependent perhaps on particular types of composition), by most causal accounts. Your will may not be free of physical constraint, but you are to an appreciable degree willed nonetheless. That is to say, you are capable of creating and pursuing goals to suit a broader number of circumstances than lower primates, or instinctively programmed insects.

When it comes to matters of state intervention, among the least problematic considered approaches to criminal activity based on prior assumption is one of consequentialism. Satisfied through deterrence and rehabilatory instruments; tapered/guided by the popular sentiments and societal idiosyncrasies of a particular country (occasional appeasement).

Individuals believe what they may about ethical truths, acausal will, and other non-physical matters. The state cannot operate likewise, it is a coercive entity by design, existing implicitly to maintain peace and order. Punitive measures to correct for criminal disturbances aren't always the best means to that end.

edits: typos, clarifications

[Peenyuh]

Therein lay the weakness of the state. It is limited in its understanding of these behavioral differences. The state thinks it knows the proper dispensation for these individuals. They do not. This is due to the idea that communal thinking is correct. Not true. The more people you gather together, the lower the communal IQ. Reasons for that need an entire new conversation Anyway, community opinion has a higher place on decisions, in matters like the method of separating individuals from society, than a small collective of experts. A small collective of experts sits higher than an individual. Nowhere in this chain is the consideration of where the correct and justifiable answer actually resides.

[Ryoki]

Just what the fuck are you saying there peenyuh..? That entire blab of text makes absolutely zero sense.

You should really learn to shut up about things you don't know anything about, it just makes you look stupid. It's embarrassing.

[Peenyuh]

Yeah, okay LawL.

[Ryoki]

So please explain what you are saying two posts above, because i'm reading it as some sort of crazy ass argument against state run (if you will) mental healthcare on the grounds of them being more than one person and experts in their field and therefore inherently wrong.

I mean, what the fuck?

[Peenyuh]

I am not against state run health care. I'm actually all for that. There is no better organizational set up. What I'm saying, is that we've got the state making decisions based on popular opinion rather than what is factually the right thing to do. We've got this huge apperatus - the state - with all of the resources we can gather. These resources are often wasted by funneling offenders through the wrong process.

[[xeno]Julios]

lol @ peons who believe in free will. We're simply complex machines - wondrous and beautiful machines, but machines nonetheless.

Punishment should only be used as a tool of rehabilitation or deterrence, not as a tool of vengeance.

The machine that is Vince Li broke down in spectacular and tragic fashion. Destroying him will not do any good, unless we're talking about a context where there is no other option and not destroying him means risking him doing more harm. I don't think we live in such a context.

[bikkeldesnikkel]

lol @ peons who believe in free will. We're simply complex machines - wondrous and beautiful machines, but machines nonetheless.

Duh. People who believe in free will don't even know what it is.