AEcantw2 - Beta 2 d/l

[^Ghost]

i noticed u had differnt sectors. maybe u can color code each sector. i think i said this b4 that the walls seemed repetitive, and quite boring to look at.

and for a more suitable skybox. i think this one would be more fitting to the style of the map... i dont feel liek posting a dl link but u can find it here http://jaj.planetquake.gamespy.com/files.html ... its called jajspace1 or jajspace2 either one its nice and soothing.

[AEon]

No one else interested in testing the map and giving some feedback?

[monaster]

DLing it right now and preparing to give some feedback if I find time in the next few (busy) days!

[monaster]

I like that map, not the typical gothic stuff that had amazed the community for so long years ago (I pretty much grew fond of "other-themed" projects). It's a bit hard to navigate at times at least if you want a fast-paced deathmatch. And you seem to have forgotten three or four pictures which are not clipped, so you can stand on top of their brush edges. All these are located near the quad, most of them inside the very same room containing the quad (as seen in picture d) of your "AEcantw2 - r133 Beta 2" screenshots) and one or two on the outside walls.
EDIT: More precise info on the location of the pictures/paintings.

[AEon]

@monaster
Fixed the clipping of about 10 images, thanks... very observant of you to notice them, you must have tried to jump on those frames?

Regarding gameflow and fast DM... true... strafe-jumping all over the place will in several areas not work all too well, due to the old-school layout. If you'd care to take a top/down shot of the map, and paint into the image the areas you'd prefer to be faster, or even sketch a better flow, I'll try to look into it.

[^Ghost]

its a bit hard with all the sharp turns to give it more a better flow in strafing. its pretty good as it is, but to improve it will need lots of work.

[AEon]

I already cut a few corners - literally - but that may not be enough... I am shying away from large changes, because the map is a re-make after all, and that includes the "retro angly" element. But if there are "obviously" annoying areas, I am open to suggestions.

Presently I have played to map so often, that I no longer notice the sharp corners.

The central arena, I am still not sure about. The tripple-JP IMO works, just the floor an ceiling designs might be "spiffed up" some more. I also want to explore the rust metal skeleton theme (holding the structure together) some more.

[monaster]

@monaster
Fixed the clipping of about 10 images, thanks... very observant of you to notice them, you must have tried to jump on those frames?

Exactly! Not sure why I'm doing this, but it seems to help sometimes, at least in that case.

Regarding gameflow and fast DM... true... strafe-jumping all over the place will in several areas not work all too well, due to the old-school layout. If you'd care to take a top/down shot of the map, and paint into the image the areas you'd prefer to be faster, or even sketch a better flow, I'll try to look into it.

I'd rather say, leave it the way it is already constructed. ^Ghost also pointed out that it could be a lot of work to change something regarding the map's game-flow. If I actually come across some "obviously annoying areas", I'll post them here in the next few days.

The central arena, I am still not sure about. The tripple-JP IMO works, just the floor an ceiling designs might be "spiffed up" some more.

I'm curious as to what extent you're going to change this area(s). As far as I'm concerned, I've never had any remarks toward this construction, but let's see what you will (probably) do to it.

[sumatra]

The map feels very cramped. It would change too much of your basic layout to get this "issue" solved. So I agree with Ghost and monaster to keep it as it is. Though I have two things i want to point out:

- I would lose the L-wall ind the LG/Quad area.
I think there is far too little air to breath, especially to use quad (splashdamage) with a projectile weapon.

- I would recommend you to use a visual massive skybox, that fits the theme.
The current one is way too boring to fit the theme IMO.

- If you put the MH in the air over the third middle jumppad it makes things more interesting (like q3dm17). Just a thought.

- A colorsystem would be nice, but is to be well thought. Don't know if you want to put in some more work on that...

Generally it feels like a oldskool-map. So, you definately achieved a nice retrofeeling.

[AEon]

@sumatra
The map feels very cramped.
I'd save a few areas, especially the corners of the strucure are cramped, whereas the central arena and the "antechambers to the arena" (3 of the them) are actually almost too large.

I would lose the L-wall ind the LG/Quad area.
If you ignore the Quad, it is large enough IMO, but you are right, jumping off the Quad pad, you always slam right into the doorway. I like that L-wall, vis-wise as well, but I'll try to come up with another way to make the area larger. I wanted it to be a bit higher up... so I may be enlarging the whole corner.

I would recommend you to use a visual massive skybox, that fits the theme.
The skybox fits the theme of the map, a Canyon Tower, perfectly, and I find it calming to look out of those windows with that vista.

If you put the MH in the air over the third middle jumppad.
I shied away from that because the bots will never (or almost never) be able to reach the MH then. Come to think of it, did the bots ever go for the MH in q3dm17? Maybe adding a botroam, could help here. But the idea is fine, will think about it some more.

The original HL map was Febuary 1999, and the last time I edited the map was December 2004... so the map is retro in every respect

[sock]

I must of spent 10mins just running around lost, the map feels like a giant rabbit warren and I can't find any landmarks of where things are. Each area needs to tell a story of what it is doing. The problem for me is the art style, you have this weird mix of geo style architecture with generic grey/orange texturing and it all blends together. The texturing should either be geo/generic or detailed, the mix of both feels like something is missing. When I started the map I thought my gfx setting were wrong because you got detailed metal plating next to low detail grey.

The map theme feels like it is a cross between a museum (wall paintings) and a space station but I can't decide which one you want to go with. if you are going space station then the skybox is wrong and the texture set has got to be consist like this for example. If you want museum then all the pieces of art have got to feel placed and presented as the focal point of the room, like this.

Once you have an architectural style, the gameplay will be enchanced by it. Space stations have big column supports, grates, loading bays, railings and all sorts of details you can put into each wing of the map to make it feel unique in each area. A museum has plenty of glass, display cabinets for cover, hot spot lights, high up natural lighting, balconies and depending on the exhibition in each wing a unique style. A museum could have carpet in certain areas, pot plants (easy to make/prefab), cameras on walls, a security area, a museum shop. The central area could be a grand hall with marble pillars for a museum or a huge dirty loading bay for a space station with a giant open space at the top for ships to land.

For me this feels like the start of a map and now you get the fun bit where you can add all the detail and make everything look unique and themed. You should not feel rushed to get this done as quick as possible and just push it out of the door, take your time and create a masterpiece.

[AEon]

Sock, very interesting comments.

After adding the new detailed texture set I started to experiment and expand a 2nd theme that exists next to the crete theme. The pod at the North end of the map, certainly reminded me of some space station. I will not be going for either museum or space station. This is some weird undefined tower standing in the middle of a canyon.

I was more thinking a previously wind based energy generating tower, thus the "drab" crete everywhere, that had issues with stability, thus all the rusted metal skeleton architecture that was required to stabilize the structure. At some point everything was bought up and turned into a eccentric holiday resort, that could indeed have docking bays. (Wonder if anyone buys that thinking ). IMO, the images are already center pieces the way they are placed, though I did not yet expand on spotlight lighting for them... one possible addition. Another one... in the eccentric resort theme, would indeed be to add plants... something I am thinking about.

I thought I would be getting this map done in a few days. But as you point out, the experiments show that more can be done and should. As it is, the r_speeds are still under 5K, so there is still a lot of potential for additional geometry.

Presently, I'll concentrate on the pathing making things a bit bigger, to then experiment with making the areas more unique. Strange, I have been playing the map so much, I do not have the least bit problems in orientation. Hmmm.

[sock]

I was more thinking a previously wind based energy generating tower, thus the "drab" crete everywhere, that had issues with stability, thus all the rusted metal skeleton architecture that was required to stabilize the structure. At some point everything was bought up and turned into a eccentric holiday resort, that could indeed have docking bays

Problem with reality environments is that they need believable visual clues about who was actually there in the first place. Like proper doorways, windows, structural supports, ventilation etc. If the place is indeed old then you could have fun breaking the concrete up to expose the metal support underneath. Add broken/collapsed sections for gamaplay reasons, less jump pads, more broken pillar/ramps etc

The pictures on the wall could be faded, torn at the edges, maybe some fallen over, broken, some without any spot light. Create proper frames for them, hang some from the ceiling via wires (could act as vertical cover for balconies) Maybe try greyscaling or colour fading them so they look more aged.

I do have to ask at this point thou, do you really want an art style for this map? or you just want to quickly get it working for bots and released? because I get the impression you are not really that interested in trying to make it looked themed or detailed.

[AEon]

Well I am no longer planning to release is in a few days, so there is enough time to change add many things. The map will never be as detailed as your or Hipshots maps, but several of your suggestions about the aging of the images or broken crete did occur to me as well. Images hanging from ceiling is also a good idea.

I want the rusted steel to intrude more on the map, and broken up walls would fit that theme as well. One of the larger anterooms, will probably be totally broken up, i.e. you basically run on a rusted metal skeleton, all windows missing or broken, things like that. Another one of the antechambers might still be very much in order, i.e. with plants and other deco.

About the JPs... I had been thinking of using the wind/fan theme with rusted tubes that then catapult you. This was actually something I was wanting to do for the central arena, but it would also work for the other JPs. So much for the idea of building a map without patches.

Presently the map is still very clean and orderly, everything is nicely placed and "pretty new". Will post shots in the next few days, and we'll see how that works out.

[Pat Howard]

I finally got around to testing this map. This one took me by surprise. I have to say I really like it. Unique aesthetics, solid floorplan, low r_speeds - it's simple but it has personality at the same time. I've got plenty of feedback for you here:

Technical Stuff:

• Your glass and grates are all double sided. You only see this in the levelshot and on rare occasion in places like the PG, so you should cull the back sides. You may also want to phong the glass it so you don't see the breaks in certain areas.
• Those big grates against the wall in the corner of your main room are nonsolid. Just double checking to make sure this was intentional. I actually think it's kind of a cool camping area.
• Noclip around the outside of your map, there are a lot of surfaces that can't be seen from any windows but still are not caulked.
• Bots didn't go for the QUAD enough for me.

Gameplay:

• I think this map needs a second RL. I would put one where the PG is now, and put the PG in place of the SG in the N Sector pod. (There are three SGs in this map!) A PG there would be a lot more useful in that long hallway.
• Put some rockets by the current RL to make it stronger than the second RL in its more accessible location.
• You need to rethink your ammo placement, it's all haphazardly strewn about the map. Logical ammo placement really does matter in an FFA map like this when several weapons are only used once.
• The RA has been wasted. It's easy to get to but isn't in an interesting spot that creates competition for it. Make it the center of attention in a different area, the one it is in now is too close to the MH anyway.
• What I really like about this map is despite having a center action room, it really does pay off to go grab a more powerful weapon before you enter it. Definitely keep the GL there the way you have it, and don't add any other weapons here.

Aesthetics

• I'm gonna cast another vote for changing the wall texture. It's feels flat and it really looks like you've "carved" into it when there is a hole in the wall with no trim around it. If you really like it, at least add some more trim and fit it to the architecture better so it doesn't just look like it's tiling with the stripes layering all over the place.
• Those barrels look odd with one texture mapped over them like that. Try to find a good barrel lid texture for them.
• You really need to remove those pictures and save them for a more appropriate map. I see the canyon, the massive orange support skeleton, the grates and barrels - everything is saying "oil rig" to me. Everything, that is, except for the artwork. I know you like them but... you have to just select them all, close your eyes, and hit delete .
• Those vertical slit windows in the RG room aren't nearly as impressive as all the other windows in the map (just look at the ceiling of that room). They look especially "carved" with the layered stripes of that wall texture everywhere. What I mean by "carved" is when I see them I think, "He had a wall with a single texture on it, drew a rectangle, carved, moved it over, carved moved it over, etc., and moved on. It doesn't show nearly as much experience as the rest of the map.

Screenshots:


You can't see it very well in this image, but the glass overlaps a little here.


Not sure what's going on here. RL marked for reference point.


Fit this texture for each ramp wall individually. You can see it overlap here.


I often get a weird "mouse in a maze" feeling when I'm in one of the corner rooms hunting for an item. I think you can simplify this room a lot by just removing that hallway. It never gets used and just adds needless complication. Cut a door where the other marking is to add some gamplay. Also caulk those surfaces that I marked.


Cut a hole in the wall next to the RG to drop down onto the adjacent path. It will take away the annoying 180 that you have to do to get back on the ramp. The bouncer will be used a lot more than the stairs/ramps but the stairs/ramps could still be used as an alternate line during combat.


Another opportunity to simplify here. Why not just move the ramp right next to the door where you come in? You also won't feel as much like you're running in circles up the ramps because they will be side by side.


You could put a hallway to drop down over that RL to get people going there from the nearby SG/RA room.


If you want to be really cool you could put some jail bars overlooking the relocated ramp where the picture is now. This is way too cliche for such an original map though .


This triple bounce pad doesn't look nearly as impressive and doesn't fit with the awesome surrounding decoration. Put some stairs up to the center bouncer, making it more accessible (especially to bots) and to maintain the octagonal shape of the rest of the room. Then float the invisibility high up above the center bouncer for some high-risk, extra fun gameplay that bots can join in on too.

Divshare is doing some server maintenance right now so you may not see all the images. I'll look into it when they are done.
-pat

[monaster]

This triple bounce pad doesn't look nearly as impressive and doesn't fit with the awesome surrounding decoration. Put some stairs up to the center bouncer, making it more accessible (especially to bots) and to maintain the octagonal shape of the rest of the room. Then float the invisibility high up above the center bouncer for some high-risk, extra fun gameplay that bots can join in on too.

Pat's white marks made me think of another solution which is kind of different and I'm really not sure if it contributes anything useful to your map, AEon, but what if you place the jumppads right onto the walls where Pat's white lines are seen and thus make it some kind of flipper-jumping? I had always thought of some flipper map quake-style and perhaps some elements could be a solution for the triple jumppad some people are complaining about. That way it will become a lot harder to frag players going for the power-up though, since they would bounce two or three times all over the room before landing on their feet again... ok... probably not a very good idea.

[AEon]

Pat Howard,
quickly read through your suggestions, will get back to you on them in detail. Especially the technical stuff with shaders will require some help I think. The alternate path ideas are interesting. I had been "locked" into the traditional layout of the original map, so that I never considered changing those areas. Will look into that and/or think of some other solutions. The central triple JP is now constructed from tubes, a theme I am going to expand:

• 

Presently working on "finishing" the template_ae texture set though.

monaster,
The flipper idea is more for an experimental map

[monaster]

monaster,
The flipper idea is more for an experimental map

Just as I thought. I fear this flipper thing will drag me into another new map that I won't be finishing in the next 200 years due to other projects but whatever.

[AEon]

Nice to see that this old thread is still there... hopefully these next few days I will be able to look at my last map source to see what might be done here.

Alas, when the map author has no *real* vision of where to go, mapping by feedback or common vote makes the end product a lot less appealing, IMO. Feedback is great for the technical issues, to get them fixed, but with design... at some point I start to change the map just to amuse myself and have something different to play... though it may not actually make that much sense to change the map.

Anyway hope to look through the feedback again, and see what makes sense and what is too much of a change. Playing the map again after years, I think the gameplay is mostly there and it is fun against the Hardcore bots, at least for me. So some visual updates here and there, slight layout changes should suffice. I miss the "build a pretty good map in 2 weeks" times.

[kaustic]

Just from the screenshots it looks nice. I'de like to run around in it to check it out.

[AEon]

The link to the map should be still valid... a few posts up somewhere.