temp01, no name - new map layout

[fKd]

no time to test, off to work. cheers in advance moved items around, updated geometry.. item/layout feedback wanted... gotta run.

http://www.filefront.com/14620439/Temp01.zip

[AEon]

Hehe... it's almost as if Elves had secretly niced up "my" map (if you'll excuse the impertinence of saying "my" in this context). I love all the interpreted, spiffed-up versions of my suggestions, and all the new stuff you added all over the place.

Presently the bots work better than they ever worked for me, the LG seems to be a massive focus, now that it is more available in the previous Quad-room. I think removing the TP completely was a very good move, seems the TP was messing up the bot AI.

Items:

• Haste room, up the bridge into the Hub (corridor), I'd suggest you move the 50H into the new connection path, where I used to have a 25H, i.e. coming from bridge to the Hub, the path on the right. This takes the 50H out of the central path, forcing players to actually go after it.
• A 25H and 2x5H might be good behind the RG (in the passage) to get the bots to use it at all.
• The Quad arena, on your spiral ramps, I'd exchange the 25H with a 50H (the LG used to be here), to really make it worth going up the ramps... BTW, the bots now actually use those ramps, neat!
• Nice how you made the upper RL room smaller via central column, I was wondering how that room could be made less empty. The RL there seems to work well enough, but the RA might be better placed elsewhere, i.e. in the PG/GL arena in the center, to attract more gameplay there. (Hmmm... the MH is very close though)...
• GL door as audio indicator. Though it makes me wonder if swapping the GL with the RG might not work even better. You would then only be able to access the RG if you use the door, warning everyone (well you can always RJ up there).
• The destination entity of the RG AP IMO is too far into the room. It throws you into the GL shards on the right, but should "barely" let you reach the area to the right of the JP's upper end. The destination of the JP under the GL and the angle JP in the Haste room also need to be placed heigher. You "bump" into the upper wall's edges from time to time.

Appreciated design additions:

• Quad arena, I like how you pulled down the JP, shortening the path up those ramps, looks cool and works well.
• As mentioned, removing the TP was a good move, IMO.
• You anarchist adding a door near the GL... (presently does not work with vis), but probably a good idea, also as audio indicator.
• Upper RL JP, I like the brushwork, helps the bots too, that kept slipping off you angled brush there.
• Your PG window is a lot nicer than mine, using those deco pillars on the left and right side.
• I like the new "front" window in the upper RL room, you can actually jump into it from the GL platform, neat.
• The new paths I suggested in and around the Haste room, were interestingly implemented in a different way. I'd say your version is a bit more map consistent.
• Those "weird" deco columns flanking the RL in the Haste room are funny.
• You carved out the walls in the long corridors (floor level, Haste room to the Quad arena with the YA and 50H corners), giving the player more room here. Very good move, the cramped-ness here had me always squirm here.
• Very interesting implementation of the AP near the RG, actually lowering it. Cool, because now the bots take the AP from the GL side, grab the RG, to then bounce back. Knowing this you can fire a rocket at the downward ramp leading to the AP on the RG side, and "blammo" .

Layout:

• Wondering what theme could be expanded, I was thinking it might be interesting to make the PG/GL arena larger. Not the outside dimension, just redistributing the space you have available. I.e. slim the width of the path along the PG wall, and then make the RL room smaller (move it back somewhat). This would give the player more space near the bottom of the arena, where an RA or the MH might be a good thing to place. It might actually be good to put the PG there, as another arena focus, and put the RA where the PG presently is near the window.
• About the LG room... there is another area the room could have been placed, you may want to think about that, though as it is presently - you deleted some of the boxes in the path, it works for me.
  
  When you exit the upper RL room, to enter the hub corridor corner, the LG room is up to the right, but that room could also be placed straight on where the PS niche presently resides, you will then exit in the Quad arena where the SG is sitting. Thus connected the "hole" in the floor that presently has the box deco could be opened again. I am *not* sure about all this, since the "hole" in the floor area was a dead end on that upper level of the map... hmmm.
• The RG backdoor path: I am still thinking a wider path here might be better to make it less of a claustophobic "afterthought", and more like another "important" path to get to the Quad arena. The extra width could be used near the JP exit to let the player stand on the edges left/right of the JP.
• I keep wondering if a "bridge" between the GL and the MH platforms might not be something to try, to let the bots grab the MH.
• From the MH you can jump into the window nearby, you might try to add a botclip ledge on the outside of the window, ca. 8u deep. Maybe the bots will then jump down from the MH to enter via window. If the previous "bridge" is implemented from the GL.
• I'd love to see a window(s) in the Haste room. Might need to "invent" some new "cool" geometry to make it work. But would definitely up the "feel good" ambiance in that room. And another clever window or two (i.e. behind the Quad) in the Quad room would be nice as well IMO.

Any chance of releasing the .map file again? Would be fun to experiment with a few other ideas, if that is OK with you.

Almost like a "Pass the Map" thing going here... well sorta

Note: textures/template/temp_color_05.TGA... is missing in the pk3.

[fKd]

i'm a big fan of pass the map, and if anyone else wants to get involved then put ya name down so that we have the same .map being passed around and not ppl working on versions that are out dated. i'll post a new version and a .map in the pk3 in a tic. just making sure im not missing anything from my latest build. chur chur

[AEon]

Those pass the map things, only work IMO if there is clearly a lead designer, i.e. you ... and the others just play around with ideas, namely providing a map based prof of concept, for you to then decide if this is a good move or not.

[Infernis]

AEon pointed this map out to me. I was looking for a way to improve my spawnpoints ad you've come up with something nice. Initially I just downloaded it for that but the map looks and plays suprisingly well. Good work so far! I'm very interested in the end result.

Funny you should use these textures too btw. The coincidence made me smile

[fKd]

they are just place holders... while i build up the map.... but they are growing on me...

[Infernis]

I know the feeling!

[fKd]

ok heres an update : http://www.filefront.com/14628301/Temp01.zip

more work has been done to make the spaces a bit more fun. more geo
done to improve style... its going well... i think. still not happy with item
placement, but the flow of the map is fun... imo upped the bots from 4 to 6 (hunter & wrack)

oh, and the .map is in the pk3 for ya AEon

screens:

[AEon]

Oh, goody

Since I was so into editing the map, I just love running around your new versions seeing how you added new creative touches all over the place. I'll try a few experiments today again, just to see if they "might" be interesting or not. This time centered around the PG/GL arena.

Some thoughts:

• I see the sliding doors are starting to to intrude the map... ieeeeek ... IIRC, these doors only work for dynamic vis if the area you are in, and that area has to be made airtight, is completely closed off by doors. For the RG arena with it's seven exits, that means 7 doors... argl. I hope the map will work without them.
• I like the JP design constancy you added for the RG JP. And the deco ceiling above the RG.
• When standing where the YA used to rest in the Quad arena (why no YA any longer?), looking towards the RG room, you can see part of the raised RG ceiling.

Update: The textures/template/temp_color_05.TGA... is still missing in the pk3, luckily it is a template standard texture and not a newly created one...

[fKd]

grab it now,just updated the link and added screenshots

[AEon]

Some image compares, might be a bit "subtle" to actually see. The idea was to make the map's lower area in the PG/GL arena larger, to allow for more combat.

Left = Old version,
Right = New experimental version.

• 

• a) Overview.
  b) The PG path at the lower end of the screen was made less wide, the PG was replaced with the RA, the JP and stairs leading to the former PG path also moved down. The RL room was move to the right, thus made smaller. Added a small ramp between MH and GL. GL platform slightly larger, letting you "run around" the columns more easily.
  c) View from the Haste area into the PG arena.
  d) You now have more moving space, plus the PG is the central focus now.
  e) Far corner of PG arena.
  f) Now with more space to move. Note the angled off lower end of the columns .
  
  I am planning to use the larger lower level to forge a path through the wall down here, as a lower level connection to the Quad arena. My upcoming second map experiment.

Note sure if any of this really works, needs more testing. Since this area is, IMO, the most beautiful area in the map, more combat here could really pay off.

[AEon]

Temp01 - AEon's Experimental Edit r25

• 

Issues

• What I mistook for "working bots" was actually a very broken AI due to the doors that the bots no longer understood. Had to delete the doors + triggers for now (adding them should be a simple copy/paste from your old version). After deleting the doors, the bots *really* play the whole map, and that well.
• PG/GL arena not played enough... below changes seems to have fixed all this. Narrowed the former PG path, moved the RL room back by 128u, RL room is now smaller, arena below larger.

Update features

• The PG/GL areas lower level is much larger, keeping the overall design and layout intact, I hope.
• New AP added to PG/GL arena, lets you reach the GL platform, turning this area into the central upper hub (will need to enlarge things up here, but that is quite possible, plus will improve vis without doors).
• The Quad is placed on the large box, botclip lets Doom get the Quad. This motivates the player to actually *use* the ramps more, the bots already use them.
• The lower level of the Quad arena had one really big issue, no weapon here! LG moved to the old Quad placement. Now the folks spawning on the lower level actually get a useful weapon to start with.
• Added a window behind the LG (previously Quad).
• The RA used to be in the RL room, now the RA is in the former LG room. This also fixes the issue of the upper RL and LG being too close to each other.
• The PG is now at the center of the lower level in the PG/GL arena, the new arena really creates many awesome vertical fights, especially with the AP.
• PG at window replaced with a YA.
• Health added behind the RG.
• Fixed the destination of several JPs, and also the size of the trigger area was causing issues with the JPs.
• Upper RL JP, added a "noenter", bots now better navigate that JP.
• Replaced the RA behind the upper RL column with an 25H.
• GL platform slightly larger. Connected to the MH via bridge. Botclip near the window to the Haste room, actually makes bots jump into that window .
• PS niches all have the angled deco added, for consistency.
• Added a 50H on the top box in the PG/GL arena, you can jump into it from above (GL) or from the SG (should probably be marked so that bots ignore it). You can now strafe jump to grab the 50H to then reach the other side of the map where the PG used to be. Fun "skill" jump!
• Two boxes let you jump up to JP in the Quad arena, as an alternate path to the ramps, useful when you pick up the Medkit.
• Added some more clipping (botclip and playerclip).
• Added a new lower-level passage between the Quad and the PG arena, as a test... IMO this is a useful connection, this avoid forcing the player to take the upper route. Should also make staying on the lower level more interesting. The design is rather "default", could not come up with anything really neat. Added another SG here.
• PK3 contains the map version before the connection between PG and Quad arena was made and the very latest .map source.

Download:

• • temp01_v2_q3w_ae25.zip (2.79 MB) @ hugelaser.com
    (Install: Unpack the .zip into your baseq3\ folder, run the map via in-game skirmish button.)

Probably overdid it with all this editing... after a while I forgot this was not actually my map. Oops. Hopefully some of the solution are usable.

[fKd]

i have no problem with ya editing this map, but plz rename it anything other than temp01 as this means my map will not run it if ya .bsp shares the same name

[fKd]

ok checking it now.....

yeah i like the new jp-gl plat, that works well, as well gonna look at the .map and see whats going on under the hood, cheers again

[Pat Howard]

Hey fKd, IDK how I missed this thread for so long. Must be the other thread that looks identical to this one that confused me. I've been catching up on your discussions with AEon. Some of these changes seem pretty unimportant for an alpha. I'm not saying they shouldn't be suggested, I just think there must be bigger and better floorplan changes out there to be found and tested before we get into all that.

Having played the latest update (AEon's edits) for a while, I have two major problems with this layout so far.

1. I think this map suffers terribly from the "swiss cheese" effect. And no, that's not because of the color of the textures . What I mean is the map has too many connections. I found myself frequently losing my bearings, not because I didn't know the layout, but because you have so many junction hallways that all look so similar. I honestly think many of these hallways are superfluous. The map would survive, and even benefit if they were taken out completely and you scrunched the major rooms together in their place. Take a look at this picture:

Starting with the red outline (the room with the QUAD, LG, and medkit), Imagine taking the whole thing and moving it over to the left until it hit the RG room, and the RA room overlapped the small junction room to the side of it. This would simplify things greatly by giving that redundant hallway junction more purpose and speeding up gameplay.

Same with the green outline. These hallways don't show any purpose to me - am I crazy? Why not get rid of them all together and bring the RL/Haste room closer to the center of the action? You can still keep your figure-8 layout, it'll just be tighter.

2. This second problem is also a result of the extra hallways: Things are too spread out here. The gaps between rooms are unnecessarily long. Respawning is really brutal because you have to first pick up a weapon off to the side of a fairly large room, and then spend so much time running to the next one looking for someone. If you made the changes above, your main hallways would be a lot shorter and thus more effective to use. Take the S shaped hallway that runs through the bottom layer of the map (the one with the 50 and the YA at each end). I like it a lot because it puts so much emphasis on the figure-8 layout you have here, but it's just too long. Standing injured on the ground floor, I can see a 50 or a YA that I want to get, but it's frustrating that they are a mile away. If the rooms were more compact, it wouldn't suffer so much from spanning the width of the map like it does now.

So those are my biggest floorplan suggestions. I'll see what you think about them and then post some of the less significant stuff based on what does/doesn't get changed. Before I go, one quick item suggestion: having items on crates (like the QUAD and the 50) can be really tough on bots. With so many other players in the map, I felt a little cheap having health and even a power up sitting there waiting for me whenever I wanted.

Later,
-pat

[fKd]

thats AEons version.... mine is different, good suggestions, but im happy with the direction its going... i'll post a bunch of screenshots showing where its at later this evening... woooo on my new flash as hell computer im picking up in a few hours.... im so excited right now

[Pat Howard]

im happy with the direction its going

Alrighty then, here's the rest of the stuff I noticed yesterday. Most of it is about the LG/QUAD/SG room. I should note that I was playing AEon's version, so some of this might be irrelevant to you.

LG/QUAD/SG Room:



This ramp needs to be rethought. You never use the last leg of it because the bouncer is faster whether or not you even want to go to the RG. It's also annoying to have to drop down that hole to get up to the RG if you're already on the top level.



I'm not sure why, but these shadows really struck a chord with me, especially in a previous version, where I think there was a slight gap between the wall and overhang shadows. If you could plan out some more scenes like this, you'll have some amazing dramatic lighting already in place for when you start working.

• I can see the ceiling of the next room over from here. Start planning your wall heights now or they'll be a real pain in the ass later on.
• You're going to need a strong item where that 25 and two shards are to get people going there. This would be a good place to put an armor. Either that or change it completely.

You know the more I think about it the more I feel like that whole room needs to be reworked. There's only one way up to the top level of it from the floor, and it's across the room from the LG (lots of running). Then as you go up the ramp it's almost always better to cut over to the RG, making the top tier of this area one of the least used areas of the map. This is a real shame, because I have a feeling it's going to look absolutely beautiful. There are a lot of things you could do. You could add a bouncer or something relatively close to the LG that goes from bottom to top. You could move the weapon spot closer to the ramp to decrease the back and forth lines players are forced to run when they spawn in. You could even take out the ramp you have now and try something totally new. Oh, and definitely have something more than an SG and a 25 up there. I'm convinced there is room for improvement here.

RG Room:



This is another place where a ramp is sitting right next to a bouncer. Players will choose the bouncer almost every time. It doesn't help that the ramp doesn't really go anywhere important, and the bouncer path is actually the one that goes to the RG, despite being further away.

Misc:

• Don't go too crazy with those little spawn-in alcoves. In such a large and populated map you want players spawning close to a weapon, especially in the action rooms. Too often I feel as though I'm spawning off in a corner somewhere, forced to run for a while before I get a gun. This is frustrating.
• Have you noticed how deadly grenades are in that highly populated junction to the right of the GL? You can just sit at the GL, spam to your right, and rack up the kills.

Plenty more feedback to come,
-pat

[fKd]

update:http://www.filefront.com/14651383/Temp01.zip

well, been working some more on this, its looking better, and playing better, i hope.

feedback as usual

cheers

[fKd]

screens after todays work:

[fKd]

i've been working heavily on this, new screens and pk3 to follow. come on work day, be over already

[Pat Howard]

Looks great, fKd, and the floorplan is working a lot better in the latest update. I agree items need an overhaul but that can be done afterwards.

It's an interesting idea, waiting until most of the geometry is done and then doing the texturing. I'd be a little worried about stunting creativity, as I get a lot of ideas from textures, but as long as you have a clear art direction and a few very adaptable placeholder textures it should work out pretty smoothly. Plus you get added consistency for your theme with the textures all being done in such a short period of time. I might try this at some point in the future...

[AEon]

Some notes:

• You might want to use the "proper" YA respawn pad, presently the YA is using that of the RA (i.e. it is solid not outlined).
• You might want to rethink the texture under the MH and Quad octa-pads, this is the original JP texture. Also I'd make those pads less high (cut height by 50%).
• The Quad ramp / corner of the map: It might be nice to have a window here behind the Quad, plus you could try to indent (via angled walls) the map here as well, to place the Quad not in the middle of the path you have to take via JP to reach the upper floor, but into a "niche". Presently you have to "stumble" past the Quad.
• This "indenting" could also help for the RA, IMO.
• Not sure if this is overkill... but all weapons could use their specific weapon respawn pads.
• Since your map is *the* demo for the template_ae set, I'll be try to help make your map look "good" with them:
  • The large round red spiderweb light (Quad arena, SG), is too bright, I had already toned it down in AEcantw2:
    • q3map_surfacelight 1600 // was 2100
    Shaders fixed.
  • You are using the quite popular tiny lights created by id, will be re-creating those as well, so you can keep the light textures consistent.
  • Also re-creating the door trim.

[fKd]

[lvlshot]http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6435/shot0012p.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6653/shot0013g.jpg[/lvlshot]

[AEon]

It's so cool to see the textures put to good use... *snief*

I like the Quad window. Fixed the light shaders. Will PM later about an update.

Becoming more and more clear, I should not try to create "AEgrid"... would not look as cool, plus it's better to concentrate on fixing the textures and finishing my other maps.

P.S.: There are a few new box texture IIRC that you might like to look into and try.

P.P.S.: What should the texture sets be called, the gray set will become template_ae, the set you using will (fancy shaders and blend/glow effects, more textures) needs a name. Maybe something omnious: template_ae01 .

[fKd]

excellent (mr burns finger thing)