women in the workplace

[xer0s]

Goodness!

[Scourge]

I'm sorry, but you don't just 'happen to get pregnant'. If they don't know how that happens by then, they shouldn't be in highly specialized positions I would think.

[U4EA]

Grats on fixating on an irrelevant detail, I'll be sure to ask her the exact circumstances of the conception next time

PS: Calm down Randy!

[Scourge]

It's not irrelevant though. If they were to prevent the pregnancy in the first place there wouldn't be that situation. I think it being totally preventable is pretty important here.

[U4EA]

I have no idea how or why she ended up getting pregnant, nor how or why she decided to keep the baby. It's all irrelevant to the point that she dealt with her pregnancy in a professional manner.

[Eraser]

U4EA, I think your beef is not with women who get pregnant in general, it's with that particular woman at your work.

[U4EA]

Thanks for this startling and totally unexpected revelation :p

[Eraser]

Oh right, I wasn't sure how quick you were on the uptake

[MKJ]

lol trolled, 2ez

[brisk]

hah, my last workplace just refused to employ women exactly for these reasons. trust me, it really happens.

it was a complete misogynists dream in many ways and actually quite fun for a while, but too much cock in the office soon loses its appeal.

[Pext]

Q: What's woman in the living room?
A: Chain too long.

[Kaz]

-

[Whiskey 7]

hah, my last workplace just refused to employ women exactly for these reasons. trust me, it really happens.

it was a complete misogynists dream in many ways and actually quite fun for a while, but too much cock in the office soon loses its appeal.

Funny I have 4 females (young contractors) and 2 (older) males (full-time) at my work.

Contractors, hmmm don't think they get maternity leave so I do feel for you U4EA.

Great thread. Would read again.

[Eraser]

Sorry to say so, but as an employer, you know this kind of stuff happens and you have to be prepared for it. If your business goes bust over a few pregnant women, then you've done really, really bad yourself.

I think the more accurate statement would be "Sorry to say so, but as woman (or man even), you can under normal circumstances plan for babies, and you have to be prepared for it."

The issue is not about whether you are pro-child or anti-child. It's just a convenient red herring people throw out in these types of issues. The issue is about where the responsibility of planning for children falls - with the individual or with society at large, specifically with employers.

Well, I think that the general goal should be to make the combination of work and children as easy as possible. This subject is very closely related to the whole "glass ceiling" discussion about women in higher management functions (or the lack thereof). Having children, forming a new generation is vital to our existence. Not just on a biological level, but on an economical level as well. Of course under normal circumstances it is - up to a point - possible to plan for children but this shouldn't a one way street. Employers have the responsibility to plan (or rather prepare) for pregnancies as well.

If you think that it's particularly unfair for women to have to lose their jobs over having a child then that is your subjective opinion - I do not share your opinion, and there are many people who do not. Why is it that government then has the right to enforce your opinion on everyone else?

I'm not sure if we understand each other correctly, as I feel that women should not be put in a position where their job is at risk because they get pregnant and I understand that you think so too. As for the government having any rights whatsoever, it's not about any individual's opinion but the community's opinion. That's what democracy is about. If you don't agree with the choices your government makes, vote against them at the next elections.

[4days]

The other woman is married, and so doesn't feel any of the same pressures. She knows she doesn't absolutely NEED this job, so she's milking the 1 year allowance dry. She's completely left the company hanging as to what her future is, and by the looks of it she's going to wait as long as possible before committing either way. We've had very little communication from her, and just found out a few weeks ago that she's gone overseas to visit her parents for 3 months. So, pretty much the exact opposite of the other one. Shows an utter lack of professionalism IMO.

it takes ages for changes in workplace rights/privileges to get bedded in, and there will always be people that take the piss. maybe in a few years (while fathers rights to paternity leave are still being thrashed out), there will be better rules in place for people who use their kids as an excuse for slacking.

on another note for women in the workplace, i used to work for a company with two female bosses and it was a fucking nightmare sometimes - not because they were women but because they were bickering power-dressing feminist dinosaurs. the misandrist bullshit they came out with could be intolerable and the way they treated girls wasn't much better. in a way they really were fostering sexual equality, but it was combined with total contempt for the elderly.

[^misantropia^]

"glass ceiling"

I fucking hate that expression. Feminists like to wax for hours about the glass ceiling but you never ever hear them about the glass floor: why it's always guys and and never women picking up the trash, cleaning out the sewers, etc.

[Eraser]

I hate the expression too. I think that the problem isn't that women can't get to higher placed functions or make a career, they don't want to. It's as simple as that. But if you say that, you get hordes of feminists all over you.

I think too much emphasis is put on getting more women in higher placed functions and getting the average amount of working hours up while no one has ever really asked women in general what they want.

It's always the types like Nelie Kroes that are invited to discussions like that on television. Well not everyone is a Nelie Kroes and not everyone wants to spend 60 hours a week in Brussels doing Eurotalk.

[Ryoki]

Women managers also have the problem that the character traits associated with good leadership in men are associated with being an uberbitch in women.

@misant: that has more to do with the physical aspect of the work, cash register people are nearly always women, so are people who ask you for a coin at the toilet in the pub, etc.

[^misantropia^]

There is a lot of dirty work women could do just as easily as men. Except they don't.

[Ryoki]

Yeah, they do other dirty work that men could do just as easily. Except they don't...

[MKJ]

because they have the smarts, amirite?

[Eraser]

Ryoki has a point there. It's probably a case of lots of low paying jobs being heavily dominated by a single gender.

How many male nurses do you see? How many female truck drivers do you see? How many male midwives do you see? How many female IT professionals do you see?

[MKJ]

get out of the sticks an into the city there, eraser.
brother in law is a male nurse, our midwives practise had males employed, and theres its about 50/50 female/male IT nurds at my current and previous job. (all of them backend, ofcourse.. cos they the ubernurds)

my point is, those averages might be true but thats mostly because those statistics are dominated by places like fuckwadville and stickstown.

[Ryoki]

IT professionals is too broad a term perhaps, marketing and communication is mostly done by women (in my experience) and that can be counted as IT professional as well. Shiii, i heard last week that the communication study in Amsterdam has something like 80-90% women these days.

But hardcore programming? Still heavily male dominated for sure, i think your company was an exception emka... though i must admit we have two female programmers as well now, out of 4 in total. Maybe stuff has changed in the last few years. Hmm.

The nurses example is also a bit flawed, there's indeed a nearly equal ratio there, as far as i know. But again, if you look at the hardcore specialists (say, surgeons), they're going to be mostly male.

But his other two examples are pretty valid examples of gender specific professions imo!

[/blathering]

[MKJ]

talking about programming btw, marketing is an whole other animal :[