Quake3World

yeah, but how? we have 3 dimensions, X Y and Z ... how can we have 4 ?

boo wrote:yeah, but how? we have 3 dimensions, X Y and Z ... how can we have 4 ?

Try this way:

Extend a line (a 1D object representing length) into another dimension and you get a square (2D object representing length and width).

Extend the square into another dimension into a cube (3D object) and you give it depth.

Extend the cube into another dimension (4D object) and you get a headache wondering what you've added....more depth?

saturn wrote:

Kracus wrote:I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.

if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?

Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...

We're in a 3d visualized world (or that's how we humans perceive it). Some say time is the 4th dimension, it's very subjective though. You can measure time but it's only heading one way.

Actually, you can add any parameter you want and say it's a new dimension.

so if we enter another dimension, were going to be streched 4 ways?

Dont think I like the sound that.

Ryoki wrote:I'd just like to say 'indeed' at this point.

I concur.

Kracus wrote:

saturn wrote:

Kracus wrote:I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.

if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?

Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...

First of all, gravity causing expansion is weird, it would rather cause a collapse. Secondly, why would it have to move at light speed, it could be moving towards lightspeed, but there's the initial inertia and acceleration. Traveling at lightspeed would mean infinite mass (if you're still Einsteinian).

GONNAFISTYA wrote:

boo wrote:yeah, but how? we have 3 dimensions, X Y and Z ... how can we have 4 ?

Try this way:

Extend a line (a 1D object representing length) into another dimension and you get a square (2D object representing length and width).

Extend the square into another dimension into a cube (3D object) and you give it depth.

Extend the cube into another dimension (4D object) and you get a headache wondering what you've added....more depth?

the 4th dimension is beyond the event horizon of your oesophagus

Insideout boy!

boo wrote:so if we enter another dimension, were going to be streched 4 ways?

Dont think I like the sound that.

Doesn't time expand your beerbelly?

saturn wrote:

Kracus wrote:

saturn wrote:if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?

Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...

First of all, gravity causing expansion is weird, it would rather cause a collapse. Secondly, why would it have to move at light speed, it could be moving towards lightspeed, but there's the initial inertia and acceleration. Traveling at lightspeed would mean infinite mass (if you're still Einsteinian).

Well the more I think about it the more I find my theory on gravity making sense which would fit this into the picture.

Basicly the universe is expanding because gravity is exerting a sort of pressure (it's not really pressure but actualy gravity) it just has the same kind of effect as pressure, like water pressure or air pressure.

Basicly this gravity/pressure is what's keeping all matter together, causing orbits etc etc... which we know gravity does anyway. The reason, I beleive, is because the gravity is caused by the inner walls of the universe on everything else, kinda like air getting compressed in a can. IF the can had the property to expand then the pressured air inside the can would cause it to expand given enough pressure.

This is what I think happens with gravity. If gravity is great enough it causes the walls of the universe to expand, which is what I muse might be happening. The reason we feel it in reverse makes perfect sense. It's like high pressure in a balloon causing the balloon to expand even though there's compressed air in the balloon. I wish I could draw you a picture of what it would look like but I swear it really does make a little sense when you sit down and try to figure out what I really mean. It's a strange theory for sure but pretty logical.

Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed so if the universe IS expanding because of gravity then it's likely they are traveling at the same speed and I mean what other force in the universe could cause it to expand?

It'd certainly not be an explosion, or any kind of compression because it dies off much too quickly AND we would be able to measure or at least see it in the unvierse today if this were the case. I think gravity is the key.

Oh and as for infinite mass.... we are talking about the whole universe which is technicly... all mass.

saturn wrote:We're in a 3d visualized world (or that's how we humans perceive it). Some say time is the 4th dimension, it's very subjective though. You can measure time but it's only heading one way.

Actually, you can add any parameter you want and say it's a new dimension.

plus...time is just a concept made up by mankind...imagine a world without it.......

This is the 5th dimention



4th is exactly the same except it's missing 2 of the cubes.

Kracus wrote: Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed

Wrong. Light has a finite speed, gravity is instantaneous action at a distance.

Kracus wrote:

saturn wrote:

Kracus wrote:
Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...

First of all, gravity causing expansion is weird, it would rather cause a collapse. Secondly, why would it have to move at light speed, it could be moving towards lightspeed, but there's the initial inertia and acceleration. Traveling at lightspeed would mean infinite mass (if you're still Einsteinian).

Well the more I think about it the more I find my theory on gravity making sense which would fit this into the picture.

Basicly the universe is expanding because gravity is exerting a sort of pressure (it's not really pressure but actualy gravity) it just has the same kind of effect as pressure, like water pressure or air pressure.

Basicly this gravity/pressure is what's keeping all matter together, causing orbits etc etc... which we know gravity does anyway. The reason, I beleive, is because the gravity is caused by the inner walls of the universe on everything else, kinda like air getting compressed in a can. IF the can had the property to expand then the pressured air inside the can would cause it to expand given enough pressure.

This is what I think happens with gravity. If gravity is great enough it causes the walls of the universe to expand, which is what I muse might be happening. The reason we feel it in reverse makes perfect sense. It's like high pressure in a balloon causing the balloon to expand even though there's compressed air in the balloon. I wish I could draw you a picture of what it would look like but I swear it really does make a little sense when you sit down and try to figure out what I really mean. It's a strange theory for sure but pretty logical.

Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed so if the universe IS expanding because of gravity then it's likely they are traveling at the same speed and I mean what other force in the universe could cause it to expand?

It'd certainly not be an explosion, or any kind of compression because it dies off much too quickly AND we would be able to measure or at least see it in the unvierse today if this were the case. I think gravity is the key.

Have you ever heard of other fundamental forces? Gravity is one, but there's also:

Strong force - keeping the nucleus together
Electromagnetic - photons
Weak Force

You can look it up here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... unfor.html

It's not being an ass, but how many years of physics did you had on high school?

dmmh wrote:

saturn wrote:We're in a 3d visualized world (or that's how we humans perceive it). Some say time is the 4th dimension, it's very subjective though. You can measure time but it's only heading one way.

Actually, you can add any parameter you want and say it's a new dimension.

plus...time is just a concept made up by mankind...imagine a world without it.......

Time quantifies the interval between events. I think it's more than a concept of humankind, though we all experience it in a subjectively way. If there's no interval between events, all things would happen at the same time, there's no cause and effect. That would be an interesting mind-experiment to think about ;p

Maybe time is the 5th natural force and not a dimension?

Like I said...good weed.

Now I know what it's like to be sucrak....blasted all day dreamin of the lead pipe.

saturn wrote:

Kracus wrote:

saturn wrote:
First of all, gravity causing expansion is weird, it would rather cause a collapse. Secondly, why would it have to move at light speed, it could be moving towards lightspeed, but there's the initial inertia and acceleration. Traveling at lightspeed would mean infinite mass (if you're still Einsteinian).

Well the more I think about it the more I find my theory on gravity making sense which would fit this into the picture.

Basicly the universe is expanding because gravity is exerting a sort of pressure (it's not really pressure but actualy gravity) it just has the same kind of effect as pressure, like water pressure or air pressure.

Basicly this gravity/pressure is what's keeping all matter together, causing orbits etc etc... which we know gravity does anyway. The reason, I beleive, is because the gravity is caused by the inner walls of the universe on everything else, kinda like air getting compressed in a can. IF the can had the property to expand then the pressured air inside the can would cause it to expand given enough pressure.

This is what I think happens with gravity. If gravity is great enough it causes the walls of the universe to expand, which is what I muse might be happening. The reason we feel it in reverse makes perfect sense. It's like high pressure in a balloon causing the balloon to expand even though there's compressed air in the balloon. I wish I could draw you a picture of what it would look like but I swear it really does make a little sense when you sit down and try to figure out what I really mean. It's a strange theory for sure but pretty logical.

Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed so if the universe IS expanding because of gravity then it's likely they are traveling at the same speed and I mean what other force in the universe could cause it to expand?

It'd certainly not be an explosion, or any kind of compression because it dies off much too quickly AND we would be able to measure or at least see it in the unvierse today if this were the case. I think gravity is the key.

Have you ever heard of other fundamental forces? Gravity is one, but there's also:

Strong force - keeping the nucleus together
Electromagnetic - photons
Weak Force

You can look it up here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... unfor.html

It's not being an ass, but how many years of physics did you had on high school?

I'm not thinking you were being an ass. At high school I failed physics, and had to take the same basic physics class (which was only 1) twice. I readily admit that my knowledge in this area is completely newbish but some of the things I think of I can actualy picture in my head and I don't know how to describe it but it just makes sense.

The reason I like discussing them is because it develops an idea. Sometimes I'm very wrong because of reasons I don't know, but if I know that I'll work with that in mind the next time.

Nightshade, I'm positive I've heard both travel at the same speed if travel is a word you can apply to gravity. I've heard of tests done by Einstein I beleive about light traveling from the sun to earth and that both gravity and light are in relation... Anyway, I'll try to see if I can find some info on what I mean instead of trying to explain it.

There is one thing though that you said that I've always suspected but hadn't mentioned yet cause I could quite figure out an explanation for it but what you call strong force is exactly what I think you mean.

I was thinking that nothing is what keeps everything together because of gravity exerting a force on everything sort of pushing everything together, the source of this force as I've tried to explain before is caused by the inside walls of the universe applying gravity to everything. Kinda the same way pressure works, compressed air vs non compressed air in a balloon.

However, the closer you get to the fabric of the universe this force changes and apply's in a similar but different manner. I have ideas to explain this but nothing really coherent yet. :icon30:

Just wait till tnf comes in here and tells you all that you all sound like the students he teaches... wanting to think 'outside the box' but not having the scientific knowhow to really understand it. :icon26:

Yea I've heard that one a few times.

Nightshade:

Here's exactly what I mean by the speed of light being equal to the speed of gravity. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3232

bumped for mq

Nightshade, gravity isn't instantaneous action at a distance.